st00pid Question??

true

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

therefore its ok for the loyalist to exist then.. ? because they are not as well organised as the 'ra... they maynot be involved in the some of the above but they still terrorise people and communities in the north. for example : in south belfast - Sandy Row, loyalists handed out anti-catholic leaflets because catholics were buying apartments... and if it not catholics they are against, it a racist attacks in south belfast.

the ordinary man on the street wants peace - with an end to all terrorists groups...

Nobody said it was ok for loyalist terrorists to exist, anymore than its ok for republican terrorists to exist. Sandy Row has always been such a staunchly unionist part of old Belfast that I cannot understand catholics wanting to buy apartments there, never mind your story of some loyalists handing out leaflets. As you say, the ordinary man on the street wants peace - with an end to all terrorists groups. We could do with more guns being sawn up on telly, like we saw being done to loyalist ones a number of years ago.

Sand

I have a lot more interest and concern than quite a few of the folk living in Ireland. If I had been a national of almost any other European country, I would not have been totally cut off from the political situation in the country had I left.

And yet it does not concern you that an armed terrorist grouping holds seats in a democratically elected body that relies on issues being discussed and resolved peacefully within the boundaries of the law? It doesnt concern you that SF/IRA have just last week threatened to exercise the option they retain through the existence of the IRA to murder, bomb, and maim if they dont get what they want?

Of course, I wouldnt expect you to be concerned. You live under a parliment where the idea of a political party threatening to kill people would be unheard of. Do you mind if I expect the same from my government - or should every Irish person who expects tolerable government have to emigrate to Britain to get it?

You see Sand, you can dislike British policy in Ireland and at the same time not dislike the British people.

Youre not objecting to British policy in Northern Ireland though. If you were you'd simply vote for a party with different policies for Northern Ireland. Instead you support a movement that rejects entirely the concept of British rule in any corner of Ireland - despite finding it quite tolerable to live under yourself. Whats so intolerable about British rule for Northern Ireland yet so tolerable for Irish people like yourself? Is it mere geography you object to?

When I left Dublin, the place was the pits and you could get a reasonable house in a reasonable area for a reasonable price. Now, you need to have tons of cash behind you to afford something reasonable in a bad area!!

Yep, and thats one of my problems. Kindly dont help make terrorists in government become another of my problems. At least then I can trust that the Justice minister is merely incompetent, rather than corrupt and incompetent.

therefore its ok for the loyalist to exist then.. ? because they are not as well organised as the 'ra...

Actually thats not it at all. SF/IRA are victims of their own electoral success. Of course there are other loyalist and even republican terrorist groups out there. NI is a cesspit of fanatics with guns and a cause. The peace proccess is supposed to see terrrorist violence give way to constitutional politics. SF/IRA have come farther than any other terrorist grouping - to the point where 10 years after their first ceasefire we might have hoped that the IRA would not be threatening people that they would kill them if they didnt get their way.

This is law abiding citizens cut of the deal from the peace process. It isnt all about what SF/IRA can get from it. The IRA *is* supposed to have gone away you know, thats the payback for victims families stomaching the sight of their loved ones killers prancing about free and celebrated as heroes. The promise that it will never happen to another family. As SF/IRA hase demonstrated recently they still are quite happy to threaten it happens to another family. SF/IRA still refuses to accept their victims as anything more than an awkward byproduct of a "wrong". They still retain terrorism and the threat of terrorism as an option. What exactly have law abiding citizens got out of this except an Education Minister whose mastermined the murders of hundreds? A SF/IRA minister - not a loyalist one.

ferdi

wow, you people talk alot!

off topic/ Is anyone else sick to the back teeth of hearing about Northern Ireland?
i really couldnt give a **** about it anymore. prods and teighs, all as bad as eachother, they deserve eachother. i wish the government would just leave them to it and sort out all the problems in the republic.

pete

Earthman wrote:

With respect that is patent nonsense.
It implies that a typical PD voter could swing to SF ie become a socialist overnight...
patent nonsense.
SF are more of an electoral threat to Joe Higgins and the socialist party if anything and to the core vote of Labour T.D's who used to be members of Democratic Left.

Actually I think it implies that SF has the potential motivate people who otherwise would not have bothered to vote at all, not that they're stealing PD voters etc, and it's something I consider to be a reasonable assumption.

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

never mind your story of some loyalists handing out leaflets. .

story?

link 1
link 2 ?


:rolleyes:

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

We could do with more guns being sawn up on telly, like we saw being done to loyalist ones a number of years ago.

IICD (Independent International Commission on Decommissioning) was appointed to over see the Decommissioning in the Good Friday Agreement/Belfast Agreement- there was no mention of video evidence...

They are there to report on decomissioning and not to make a film about it.


If the IRA had of decommission years ago - no one would have cared about video evidence to be honest.

true

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

story?

:rolleyes:

I did not say if the story was true or untrue : it was the first I heard of it. It would not surprise me , though. Imagine if Protestants went to live in the middle of a staunchly Catholic area - what would happen ? What has happened? Look at Jean McConville - she was a Protestant who married a Catholic, converted ( as insisted by the Catholic authorities at the time ) and went to live in a Catholic area. She was shot and abducted. That to me is worse than handing out leaflets. I remember during the hunger strikes leaflets being handed to me on the streets of Dublin, leaflets which I found offensive. So what ? The Catholics you mention have a choice - to move in to a staunchly Protestant area or not. Some Protestants there ( according to your link ) view some Catholics as spies. Nobody said - or at least I did not - all the good people were only on one side and all the bad people are only on the other side.

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

Imagine if Protestants went to live in the middle of a staunchly Catholic area - what would happen ? What has happened?

Actually its at the edge of a Protestant area.. beside a Catholic area.

true wrote:

Look at Jean McConville - she was a Protestant who married a Catholic, converted ( as insisted by the Catholic authorities at the time ) and went to live in a Catholic area. She was shot and abducted.

What about the Catholic Postman shot dead in 2002? What about the Bloody Sunday?

We have to stop hanging on the past, and look to the future... alright people want answers to why things happened etc. if we hang on the past it will affect the next generation and the next generation and the cycle of madness will continue...

It was there on a plate when the IRA said the would decommission... photo or no photos - it was there. we in the north will probably have to wait another year before the talks will get going again...

another year another generation..

true

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

Actually its at the edge of a Protestant area.. beside a Catholic area.
(

Sandy Row is as Protestant an area as you can get. If some hardliners there hand out leaflets and decide to draw a line in the sand, that does not surprise me. They have seen Catholics move in to and take over other areas and they do not want it to happen to them. So what ? There are plenty of areas these Catholics can go to where they will be welcome. Live + let live.


You are correct when you say "We have to stop hanging on the past, and look to the future... alright people want answers to why things happened etc. if we hang on the past it will affect the next generation and the next generation and the cycle of madness will continue..."

Re decommissioning, the provos had enough time but they took much more than they gave, to/from the process.

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

Sandy Row is as Protestant an area as you can get.

Sandy Row is a Protestant area - but right beside it is the Lisburn Road. On that Road is the Tollgate House Appartments which would is 'occupied' by the catholic (nationalist). At the crossroad is the Whitehall Apartments on the edge of the Sandy Row.

true wrote:

There are plenty of areas these Catholics can go to where they will be welcome.

so Catholics cant live there because the Protestants do... your missng equal rights. Catholics in the north are no longer second class civilians and should not be treated as one.

gurramok

true wrote:

Neither of the major Unionist parties - the DUP or UUP - supports or supported a terrorist organisation.

Unless you have forgotten, the DUP(Rev McCrea) have shared a public platform with the LVF terrorist 'King Rat' at the height of the Orange march tensions in Portadown.

true wrote:

Sandy Row is as Protestant an area as you can get. If some hardliners there hand out leaflets and decide to draw a line in the sand, that does not surprise me. They have seen Catholics move in to and take over other areas and they do not want it to happen to them. So what ? There are plenty of areas these Catholics can go to where they will be welcome. Live + let live.

Spot the bigotry.
This goes against the aspect of the GFA.
Anybody anywhere on this island should be allowed to live where they want without religious discrimination.

true

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

Sandy Row is a Protestant area - but right beside it is the Lisburn Road. On that Road is the Tollgate House Appartments which would is 'occupied' by the catholic (nationalist). At the crossroad is the Whitehall Apartments on the edge of the Sandy Row.



so Catholics cant live there because the Protestants do... your missng equal rights. Catholics in the north are no longer second class civilians and should not be treated as one.

I am not saying Catholics cant live there because the Protestants do. What I am saying is that there are a few areas in Northern Ireland which are staunchly Protestant. Sandy row is one. That is the reality of the situation.
In recent years, Protestants have already shrunk / retreated from certain areas. I am not surprised there are a few extremists in Sandy row, just as I am sure there are a few on the Falls Road.

Lets get one thing straight : the nationalists in Portadown will not let a parade down Garvahy Road once a year ( which incidentally was not always a Catholic Road ) which would pass in 10 or 15 minutes. Yet you are surprised when Sandy Row residents object to Catholic "spies" ( as they call them ) moving in to their area 24 / 7.

true

gurramok wrote:

Unless you have forgotten, the DUP(Rev McCrea) have shared a public platform with the LVF terrorist 'King Rat' at the height of the Orange march tensions in Portadown..

I was not at any public platform in Portadown so I do not know who he shared it with. However, the DUP in fairness have condemned loyalist paramilitary murders, just as they have condemned republican paramilitary murders. If one of the other people on a platform happens to be a homosexual, does that mean the first person is as well / Or even supports gay marriages? If that is the best link you can get between Unionist political parties and loyalist terrorists ( who I would condemn as much as you ) , then it shows that the Unionist parties have far less links to terrorism than Sinn Fein, for example.

gurramok wrote:

Spot the bigotry.
This goes against the aspect of the GFA.
Anybody anywhere on this island should be allowed to live where they want without religious discrimination.

Sorry sunshine, I am not bigoted. Of course anybody anywhere on this island should be allowed to live where they want without religious discrimination. The fact is, everyone - Catholics, Protestants , Black, Jew etc have all faced descrimination in some area of Ireland at some time. There is a lot that goes against other aspects of the GFA that is not addressed yet.
eg IRA decommissioning. When it is addressed, perhaps we can all move on.
Handing out a leaflet - I did not see what was written on it - is less of a crime than kneecapping, robbing, murder etc. When someone handed me an IRA leaflet in Dublin once, I threw it in the bin, like most people did.

gurramok

true wrote:

I was not at any public platform in Portadown so I do not know who he shared it with. However, the DUP in fairness have condemned loyalist paramilitary murders, just as they have condemned republican paramilitary murders.

When someone handed me an IRA leaflet in Dublin once, I threw it in the bin, like most people did.

Well, the man know as King Rat was reputed by 'intelliegnce sources' to have carried out 30 or so murders, this was known to all politicians at the time.
DUP have come a bit since then tbh but their record is not perfect.
They only started condeming loyalist murders in the early 90's, took their time but they are becoming a bit civil.

A leaflet handed out down here in dublin is alot different than a leaflet handed out up north.
Remember up north is totally different where the threat is real from either side of brutal intimidation.
Down here, the paramilitaries of intimidation are pretty tiny and have been out-numbered by the numerous drugs gangs which the gardai cant stop.

By the way, did you report the handing out of ira leaflets to the nearest garda(if they can be found) as the ira are an illegal organisation ?

shltter

true wrote:

Sandy Row is as Protestant an area as you can get. If some hardliners there hand out leaflets and decide to draw a line in the sand, that does not surprise me. They have seen Catholics move in to and take over other areas and they do not want it to happen to them. So what ? There are plenty of areas these Catholics can go to where they will be welcome. Live + let live.



.

wow true
your true colours are coming out now
you preach about ethnic cleansing but have the cheek to write something like this
so its ok for loyalist thugs and bullies to decide who can buy a house or who can live in a particular area.
what happened to your love for the rule of law

personally i think this deserves a ban if you substitute the word catholic with
blacks, jews,immigrants,travellers it is completely sectarian you are justifying terrorists bullying and threatening innocent people because of their religion.

if the nationalists were doing this you would be the first on here preaching about it

shltter

true wrote:

Sorry sunshine, I am not bigoted. Of course anybody anywhere on this island should be allowed to live where they want without religious discrimination. The fact is, everyone - Catholics, Protestants , Black, Jew etc have all faced descrimination in some area of Ireland at some time. There is a lot that goes against other aspects of the GFA that is not addressed yet.
eg IRA decommissioning. When it is addressed, perhaps we can all move on.
Handing out a leaflet - I did not see what was written on it - is less of a crime than kneecapping, robbing, murder etc. When someone handed me an IRA leaflet in Dublin once, I threw it in the bin, like most people did.

so until the IRA decommission it is ok for loyalist thugs to threaten and bully people because they are catholic.

true

shltter wrote:

so until the IRA decommission it is ok for loyalist thugs to threaten and bully people because they are catholic.

I never said it was ok for loyalist thugs to threaten and bully people, if this is indeed what they did. What was written on the piece of paper? You are assuming it was a threat ? I do not know. What I do know is that these Catholics had a choice before they wanted to move in to a staunchly working class Protestant area. This has already happened in other areas without threats. Some people in Sandy Row did hand out leaflets. We do not know / nobody has said what these leaflets said. I am saying I am not surprised that some Protestants took exception to these "spies" (as they called them ) moving in. Likewise I would not be surprised if when Protestants moved in to a staunchly republican area they may get a leaflet or other warning bells or whatever. This is because of the nature of working class areas on both sides of the divide in the North. If we were down the peace road a bit further then things would be easier. Understand ?

Incidentally, in the week following Mrs McAleeses comparison of Nazis with people like that in Sandy row, why would Catholics WANT to live beside / among them ?

I am all for integrated education ( unlike the Catholic Church) , integrated housing etc. I for one would not like to live in a segregated getto. However, in N. Ireland, I think it is important to live and let live, and to respect the wishes of your neighbours. Catholics know they would not be welcome in Sandy Row, just as Prods would not move in to the Falls or Short Strand.
Its not right, but thats the way it is at the moment.

true

shltter wrote:

wow true
your true colours are coming out now

Yeah, and my true colours are probably a lot more neutral than yours.

shltter wrote:

you preach about ethnic cleansing but have the cheek to write something like this
so its ok for loyalist thugs and bullies to decide who can buy a house or who can live in a particular area.
what happened to your love for the rule of law

I fully support the rule of law and always have done so. I do not know what was written on the piece of paper , do you ? Is it not a bit rich of you to accuse me of supporting thugs and bullies until we do ? I never compared it to eithnic cleansing. Real eithnic cleansing has occured when existing dwellers have been shot, burnt out, windows broken etc - all of which I would condemn.

When the Catholics of Garvaghy Road will not allow a 15 minute parade down their road ( which like many other road in N. Ireland used to be "not so Catholic" ) once a year, do you really expect the hardliners in one of the most hardline areas of N. Ireland to allow Catholics to live 24 hours a day in "their perceived" area? Observing all the goings on etc? There are good and bad on both sides, as I always said. I am not naieve enough to expect there to be all good in one particular area.

When you think of what you accused me of, I think you should withdraw your allegation.

gurramok

true wrote:

Yeah, and my true colours are probably a lot more neutral than yours.
When the Catholics of Garvaghy Road will not allow a 15 minute parade down their road ( which like many other road in N. Ireland used to be "not so Catholic" ) once a year, do you really expect the hardliners in one of the most hardline areas of N. Ireland to allow Catholics to live 24 hours a day in "their perceived" area? Observing all the goings on etc? There are good and bad on both sides, as I always said. I am not naieve enough to expect there to be all good in one particular area.

When you think of what you accused me of, I think you should withdraw your allegation.

true, here you are equating 2 different scenarios which have no equating.
A 15min Orange march as you put it has no relevance to where somebody wants to live.
What is wrong with having a road which has so-called changed religion in your view ? (Btw, that road used to be mixed, not just non-catholic. )
The GFA states that anyone can live anywhere without threat of intimidation due to their religious beliefs amongst others.

Your earlier post is sectarian.

true wrote:

They have seen Catholics move in to and take over other areas and they do not want it to happen to them. So what ? There are plenty of areas these Catholics can go to where they will be welcome.

Catholics 'take over' ?
You are speaking like a true bigot in these remarks.
Can you name areas where these 'Catholics' can go, can you recommend any areas or do you have specifics as to where one can live based on ones religion ?

true

Sorry , Gurramock, I am not bigoted. Of course anybody anywhere on this island should be allowed to live where they want without religious discrimination. The fact is, everyone - Catholics, Protestants , Black, Jew etc have all faced descrimination in some area of Ireland at some time. If I was a member of the Orange Order , which I am not, I would not want to march down Garvahy Road, even though most of it was Protestant at one stage and it was the traditional route. Likewise, if I was a Catholic on the Garvahy road now, I would go away for the day on July 12th, or else go inside and turn up the telly for a while. If I was a Prod. in Belfast, I would not want to live in the middle of Short Strand or the Falls Road. Why would a Catholic want to live in a area like Sandy row, when they are not wanted there ? I defend anybodies right to live anywhere, but common sense has to come in to it. Its not as if the Catholics are being forced in to Sandy Row, is it ? There is a lot that goes against other aspects of the GFA that is not addressed yet. eg IRA decommissioning. When it is addressed, perhaps we can all move on.
Handing out a alledged leaflet - I did not see or hear what was written on it - is less of a crime than kneecapping, robbing banks and terrorising bank staff, murder etc. As I said before , when someone handed me an IRA leaflet in Dublin once, I threw it in the bin, like most people did. Again I repeat I do not condone a minority of people who hand out leaflets like this. As I said before, there are good and bad on both sides, as I always said. I am not naieve enough to expect there to be all good in one particular area. I think you have a lot to learn yet, gurramok.


You think I speak like a true bigot ? If anyone seems to be a bigot, it is you that is the bigot.

gurramok

true wrote:

Sorry , Gurramock, I am not bigoted.

You have shown to this board what your views are regarding those of the catholic faith are by this
"They have seen Catholics move in to and take over other areas and they do not want it to happen to them. So what ? There are plenty of areas these Catholics can go to where they will be welcome"

Again, that is sectarian.

Likewise, if I was a Catholic on the Garvahy road now, I would go away for the day on July 12th, or else go inside and turn up the telly for a while.

Are you a comedian by any chance?

Why would a Catholic want to live in a area like Sandy row, when they are not wanted there ?

Who say a person is not wanted, they have a right to live anywhere whether you like it or not.

As I said before , when someone handed me an IRA leaflet in Dublin once, I threw it in the bin, like most people did.

Again I ask, did you report the person to a garda nearby for promoting an illegal organisation ?

I think you have a lot to learn yet, gurramok.

No, I don't. Learn what ?..more about your bigotry ?

You think I speak like a true bigot ? If anyone seems to be a bigot, it is you that is the bigot.

Very odd, i do not follow either religion, catholic or protestant.
My grandfather was a protestant and my grandmother was a catholic, maybe in your words..i could be a 'prod atheist' ?

true

Guramoc, it is unfair of you to take selective quotes out of context. When mentioning Garvahy Road, I also said "If I was a member of the Orange Order , which I am not, I would not want to march down Garvahy Road, even though most of it was Protestant at one stage and it was the traditional route." In other words, I would not want to go in to an area when the locals did not want me there. I think this is common sense. Unfortunately, there are some people of both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland who do not have much common sense, or willingness to "do unto others as you would like to have them do unto you". In other words, good "neighbourhoodlieness" if there is such a word.

As regards the comment "Likewise, if I was a Catholic on the Garvahy road now, I would go away for the day on July 12th, or else go inside and turn up the telly for a while". Yes, I would do this rather than being confrontational and throwing stones. That only makes the situation more difficult for everyone in the long run. Did you know in the fifties and early sixties some Catholics went to spectate in good spirts at July 12th Parades, and it was looked on as a sort of St. Patricks day parade. I know Catholics who helped their Protestant friends with milking on the farm that day, and they went to the parades together.

Regarding the leaflet I got in Dublin, I threw it in the bin, rather than bothering Guards with it. Many years later, I got a scratch along the entire side of my car once , and I did go to the Guards. Not that it done any good , of course. Did the people who got the leaflet in Sandy row go to the PSNI I wonder ?

You say "Very odd, i do not follow either religion, catholic or protestant.
My grandfather was a protestant and my grandmother was a catholic, maybe in your words..i could be a 'prod atheist' " I do not care what you are. You do not have to follow either religion to be bigoted. In fact it is arguable that it is the true Christians, on both sides, who are the lease bigoted.

I have not said a single thing on this board that could label me as a bigot. I have good friends from all sides and none of the religous side both North and South of the border. I think worse things have happened in Northern Ireland that potential apartment purchasers in a hardline working class area of Belfast being given leaflets.
However, a bit depends on the extent of what was on the leaflet. Was it " Welcome to our area , come join the King Billy Sports and Social club " or was it something more intimidatory? Or was it something the Catholics even made up ? As I say, where is the proof? I did not hear about it in the media, only on this board.

If you go in to a Lions den, you expect Lions. Its not right, but thats the way it is at the moment. I never said it was ok for loyalist thugs to threaten and bully people, if this is indeed what they did. I think you should withdraw your allegation.

gurramok

In regard to Orange march down garvaghy road you had mentioned earlier :
"When the Catholics of Garvaghy Road will not allow a 15 minute parade down their road ( which like many other road in N. Ireland used to be "not so Catholic" ) once a year, do you really expect the hardliners in one of the most hardline areas of N. Ireland to allow Catholics to live 24 hours a day in "their perceived" area?"

You brought up the issue of Orange marches (which should be for another thread anyway), and :
"Did you know in the fifties and early sixties some Catholics went to spectate in good spirts at July 12th Parades, and it was looked on as a sort of St. Patricks day parade. I know Catholics who helped their Protestant friends with milking on the farm that day, and they went to the parades together."

I find it extremely hard to believe that a catholic would be happy to spectate with clappy hands at an Orange parade on which institution is fiercely anti-catholic and forbades membership from that religion.
I too have met people from both sides of the divide, the catholic ones tell me that they do not like Orange marches near them as they feel threatened.
The protestant ones had no opinion of the matter, obviously they are open-minded folk like the catholics.

Regarding the garda, i agree that they are useless.
I'd find true christians if they exist hold religion to ransom to pursue their own definition of religion as a detriment to others.

Handling out nasty leaflets to people of any colour and religion has been reported in the media , watch bbcnewsNI and UTVlive to see examples.

Your earlier post would make a loyalist proud on the view of catholics wishing to live anywhere. My 'allegation' is not an allegation.

PS - please spell my nick properly next time

true

It is an allegation because earlier you said I spoke like a bigot. What did I say that could give you the idea I am a bigot ? As I said often, there are good and bad on both sides. You seem to be a lot more bigoted than I am. Re the July 12th parades, did you speak to people in the 50's / early sixties? This is the era I said I was referring to. You seem to think the baddies are only on one side. You say " Orange parade on which institution is fiercely anti-catholic and forbades membership from that religion ". Well, the masonic order does have some Catholics in it, as well as muslims.
I know the Orange order forbades membership from Catholics but I do not hear you complaining that Opas Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus forbades membership from Prodestants. My point is that people should be allowed do whatever they want to as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others. The reality is, though , because some elements are so bigoted in N. Ireland this is not always possible. You seem to be as surprised as the Catholics who wanted to move in to staunch Protestant Sandy Row that there is an element there that would be hostile to them . Where have you lived this last 35 years? Mars ? Why move in to the Lions den - or as McAleese would have it, the "people comparable to Nazis" den? I would not want to move in there. If some people there thought I was a Catholic spy,( as they alledged about the potential Catholic purchasers ) they would not have to wait to long to see my heels for dust. Of course oit would be great to have a country where everyone had the sense to get on and live wherever they want, but this is reality blah blah.
If you want integration to progress, the Catholic church should encourage integrated schools as much as the Protestant churches , so that children are not taught to hate each other as much. The Catholic church could also relax its attitude to mixed marriages : it does not recognise the Protestant partners beliefs by insisting that the Catholic partner promise and do all they can to bring the children up as Catholics.

Its easy for you gurramok to whine about the leaflet incident in Sandy Row, but in the last few posts you have not said anything consilatory or to suggest there is some fault on both sides.
Re. the Gardai, I never said they were useless, you did.
Did the Catholics show the letter / note to the PSNI ? Do you think Protestants have never been intimidated by Catholics? I am quite neutral, gurramok; if anyone is a bigot it would appear to be you.

true

gurramok wrote:

DUP have come a bit since then tbh but their record is not perfect.
They only started condeming loyalist murders in the early 90's, took their time but they are becoming a bit civil.

Rubbish. I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein.

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

Regarding the leaflet I got in Dublin, I threw it in the bin, rather than bothering Guards with it. Many years later, I got a scratch along the entire side of my car once , and I did go to the Guards. Not that it done any good , of course. Did the people who got the leaflet in Sandy row go to the PSNI I wonder ?

Actually they did ... another link?

maybe you missed it here

true wrote:

I have not said a single thing on this board that could label me as a bigot. I have good friends from all sides and none of the religous side both North and South of the border. I think worse things have happened in Northern Ireland that potential apartment purchasers in a hardline working class area of Belfast being given leaflets.
However, a bit depends on the extent of what was on the leaflet. Was it " Welcome to our area , come join the King Billy Sports and Social club " or was it something more intimidatory? Or was it something the Catholics even made up ? As I say, where is the proof? I did not hear about it in the media, only on this board.

Where is the proof of the USA landing on moon, first... IRA doing the northern bank robbery? (maybe they did/Maybe they didnt - but there is no proof even from the media)
Just because you hear/seen about in the Media.. does it make it true... ?

shltter

true wrote:

Rubbish. I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein.

no they have not consistently condemned terrorist murders

Dr Ian also had links with the ulster protestant volunteers in the 60s

and of course the third force members of which imported weapons from south africa

shltter

true wrote:

Yeah, and my true colours are probably a lot more neutral than yours.

do you really think so

I fully support the rule of law and always have done so. I do not know what was written on the piece of paper , do you ? Is it not a bit rich of you to accuse me of supporting thugs and bullies until we do ? I never compared it to eithnic cleansing. Real eithnic cleansing has occured when existing dwellers have been shot, burnt out, windows broken etc - all of which I would condemn.

When the Catholics of Garvaghy Road will not allow a 15 minute parade down their road ( which like many other road in N. Ireland used to be "not so Catholic" ) once a year, do you really expect the hardliners in one of the most hardline areas of N. Ireland to allow Catholics to live 24 hours a day in "their perceived" area? Observing all the goings on etc? There are good and bad on both sides, as I always said. I am not naieve enough to expect there to be all good in one particular area.

When you think of what you accused me of, I think you should withdraw your allegation.

so your basic arguement boils down to some catholics in a completely different area of the North dont want a triumpalist march past their homes

so it is ok to threaten bully discriminate against all catholics.

the fact that you dont expect catholics to be allowed to live whereever they want is tacit approval of the threatening and bullying your suggestion that they find somewhere else to live is approval of the bullying

if you were a true democrat you would stand up for the right of anyone to live anywhere

you are a sectarian bigot your own words have shown this to be the case

Victor

ferdi wrote:

Why is there so much emphisis in the media put on the IRA/republics ending violence and criminal activity and so little directed at Loyalists? The other day people started going mad when the IRA made their announcment and yet no pressure whatsoever is put on loyalist groups to make commitments to peace.

Possibly because the IRA is seen (it certainly portrays itself) as an army, something the loyalists haven't been able to do in the last (now) 40 years.

Together with Sinn Féin, the IRA is seen as a sophisticated movement. Whereas "brighter" loyalists were able to join the system (DUP/UUP, civil service, police, army), "brighter" republicans stayed within Sinn Féin and the IRA.

So today the real demilitarisation is between the IRA and the system.

true

shltter wrote:

so your basic arguement boils down to some catholics in a completely different area of the North dont want a triumpalist march past their homes

totally wrong, shltter, read my posts again. As I said before, if I was an Orangeman, which I am not, I would not parade down Garvahy road. If I was a resident of any road inc Garvahy road, I would let anyone parade down it once a year if it kept them happy. I dont care if it was an orange, green or pink band or march. There is more to life than getting upset over that.

shltter wrote:

so it is ok to threaten bully discriminate against all catholics.

totally wrong again shltter, I never said or suggested that. Please learn to read. All discrimination is wrong and against the law. The law should deal with it. I support the law. Do you?

shltter wrote:

the fact that you dont expect catholics to be allowed to live whereever they want is tacit approval of the threatening and bullying your suggestion that they find somewhere else to live is approval of the bullying

Catholics are allowed to live wherever they want. I am just surprised that Catholics would want to move in to a hardline Unionist working class area of Belfast, and expect there to be no bad feeling as a result.

shltter wrote:

if you were a true democrat you would stand up for the right of anyone to live anywhere

Its a free country, anyone can live anywhere. However, this may not always be to the liking of the all of the local residents. I cannot do anything about that. It can apply in Sandy Row, the Bogside, Ballymun, the housing estates of England, the Bronx, wherever. And what was said on this leafelet anyway? A bit depends on the extent of what was on the leaflet. Was it " Welcome to our area , come join the King Billy Sports and Social club " or was it something more intimidatory? It could for all I know have been the work of a disgruntled unemployed local youth, or a schoolboy prank.

shltter wrote:

you are a sectarian bigot your own words have shown this to be the case

Sorry shltter, you are wrong yet again there. I have good friends from all sides and none of the religous side both North and South of the border. I see good and bad on both sides of the divide in N. Ireland. I think you should apologise shltter, it appears you are yourself a bigot who calls someone who is relatively neutral a bigot ! I condemn all crime, where crime has taken place. Do you condemn all crime....or would it depend on your definition of a crime. Maybe the abduction, torture and murder of a (originally protestant ) mother of ten from west Belfast would not be a crime in your book?