st00pid Question??

true

I said "I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein."

shltter wrote:

no they have not consistently condemned terrorist murders

Dr Ian also had links with the ulster protestant volunteers in the 60s

and of course the third force members of which imported weapons from south africa

Yes the DUP have condemned, and do condemn murders by the UVF, UDA etc as well as by the IRA and INLA etc. That is on public record. Unlike Sinn Fein, the leaders of the DUP have never been accused by the all of British and Irish governments and parties of being terrorists, or leaders of a paramilitary group. Get your facts right, shltter. As a rule, the Unionist people of N. Ireland do not vote for terrorists.

shltter

true wrote:

totally wrong, shltter, read my posts again. As I said before, if I was an Orangeman, which I am not, I would not parade down Garvahy road. If I was a resident of any road inc Garvahy road, I would let anyone parade down it once a year if it kept them happy. I dont care if it was an orange, green or pink band or march. There is more to life than getting upset over that.

this is what you said

Lets get one thing straight : the nationalists in Portadown will not let a parade down Garvahy Road once a year ( which incidentally was not always a Catholic Road ) which would pass in 10 or 15 minutes. Yet you are surprised when Sandy Row residents object to Catholic "spies" ( as they call them ) moving in to their area 24 / 7.

true wrote:

totally wrong again shltter, I never said or suggested that. Please learn to read. All discrimination is wrong and against the law. The law should deal with it. I support the law. Do you?

this is what you wrote


When the Catholics of Garvaghy Road will not allow a 15 minute parade down their road ( which like many other road in N. Ireland used to be "not so Catholic" ) once a year, do you really expect the hardliners in one of the most hardline areas of N. Ireland to allow Catholics to live 24 hours a day in "their perceived" area? Observing all the goings on etc? There are good and bad on both sides, as I always said. I am not naieve enough to expect there to be all good in one particular area.

true wrote:

Catholics are allowed to live wherever they want. I am just surprised that Catholics would want to move in to a hardline Unionist working class area of Belfast, and expect there to be no bad feeling as a result.

why should there be bad feeling the prove of your sectarianism is that you are happy to divide areas into catholics live there protestants live here

true wrote:

Its a free country, anyone can live anywhere. However, this may not always be to the liking of the all of the local residents. I cannot do anything about that. It can apply in Sandy Row, the Bogside, Ballymun, the housing estates of England, the Bronx, wherever. And what was said on this leafelet anyway? A bit depends on the extent of what was on the leaflet. Was it " Welcome to our area , come join the King Billy Sports and Social club " or was it something more intimidatory? It could for all I know have been the work of a disgruntled unemployed local youth, or a schoolboy prank.

you accepted that catholics would be threatened
you said what do they expect
and to top it off you said there are plenty of other areas they can go and live in
you refered to catholics as spies as if every catholic was a member or supporter of the IRA
now if comments like that were made about a black family trying to buy a house in an area
they are taking over
what do they expect
they can go and live somewhere else
you would rightly be called a racist
you are a sectarian bigot trying to stand on the high moral ground you revealed your real self

true wrote:

Sorry shltter, you are wrong yet again there. I have good friends from all sides and none of the religous side both North and South of the border. I see good and bad on both sides of the divide in N. Ireland. I think you should apologise shltter, it appears you are yourself a bigot who calls someone who is relatively neutral a bigot ! I condemn all crime, where crime has taken place. Do you condemn all crime....or would it depend on your definition of a crime. Maybe the abduction, torture and murder of a (originally protestant ) mother of ten from west Belfast would not be a crime in your book?

exactly what a racist says when they are caught out
some of my best friends are black gay whatever
then try and throw it back at me

you condemn all crime and then make excuses for bullies trying to intimidate
young catholic people trying to get a home

if that is how your condemnation works it is not worth your breath

and then bring up the murder of a poor innocent woman to try and throw a bit of muck around have you no shame is there no depth you would not sink to

I have no intention of aplologising for identifying you for what you are a sectarian bigot

shltter

true wrote:

I said "I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein."



Yes the DUP have condemned, and do condemn murders by the UVF, UDA etc as well as by the IRA and INLA etc. That is on public record. Unlike Sinn Fein, the leaders of the DUP have never been accused by the all of British and Irish governments and parties of being terrorists, or leaders of a paramilitary group. Get your facts right, shltter. As a rule, the Unionist people of N. Ireland do not vote for terrorists.

have you ever heard the phrase judge me not by my words but by my actions

I suggest you delve a little deeper into the history of you hero Dr Ian or perhaps you already know about his links to terrorist groups in the 60s 70s and 80s and of his meeting with terrorists at garvaghy rd
maybe your happy that your hero is a hypocrite just as long as he condemns it afterwards

gurramok

true wrote:

I know the Orange order forbades membership from Catholics but I do not hear you complaining that Opas Dei or the Knights of St. Columbanus forbades membership from Prodestants. My point is that people should be allowed do whatever they want to as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others.

The Orange order wants to march where its not wanted.
Those Catholic orders who have no resemblance nor popularity do not march where they are not wanted. (when and was their last march?, i'm not a catholic)

true wrote:

Rubbish. I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein.

You are wrong on the DUP, they hardly ever condemned a loyalist murder pre circa late 80's.

true

gurramok wrote:

The Orange order wants to march where its not wanted.
Those Catholic orders who have no resemblance nor popularity do not march where they are not wanted. (when and was their last march?, i'm not a catholic)

I never said the orange order were right to march down Garvahy Road, just because it is their traditional route and there were no hostile catholic housing estates there generations ago. Quite the opposite : I said if I was an Orange Order member ( which I am not ) I would not want to parade down Garvahy Road.

The point re Opus Dei, The Knights of St. Columbanus etc is that someone else remarked how the orange order is anti-Catholic. Well, I agree, it is. But the Opus Fei and the Knights of St. Columbanus are anti-Protestant. So what ? I am not in any of these. I am not a Freemason either, but did you know there are some Catholic Freemasons , as well as Muslim ones etc.

gurramok wrote:

You are wrong on the DUP, they hardly ever condemned a loyalist murder pre circa late 80's.

You are wrong : they condemned loyalist murders are well as republican ones.
You may have failed to notice this because so many of the murders and bombings were committed by republicans.

true

Originally Posted by true
"I said "I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein."

Yes the DUP have condemned, and do condemn murders by the UVF, UDA etc as well as by the IRA and INLA etc. That is on public record. Unlike Sinn Fein, the leaders of the DUP have never been accused by the all of British and Irish governments and parties of being terrorists, or leaders of a paramilitary group. Get your facts right, shltter. As a rule, the Unionist people of N. Ireland do not vote for terrorists."

shltter wrote:

have you ever heard the phrase judge me not by my words but by my actions

I suggest you delve a little deeper into the history of you hero Dr Ian or perhaps you already know about his links to terrorist groups in the 60s 70s and 80s and of his meeting with terrorists at garvaghy rd
maybe your happy that your hero is a hypocrite just as long as he condemns it afterwards

Wrong again , shltter. Dr. Ian, as you call him, is not my hero, as you alledge.
I even said earlier "I am not a supporter of the DUP". Yet you accuse me of having its elderly leader as a hero ? Can you not read ? I have never even voted DUP. We are talking about the DUP, not Paisley. The point is it condemns all terrorism. Any DUP voters I ever met condemned loyalist as well as republican terrorism. Can the same be said of Sinn Fein? If you want to pick a party many of whose members / leadership have been convicted of terrorism offences in the past , I think this would be a better example.

true

shltter wrote:

why should there be bad feeling the prove of your sectarianism is that you are happy to divide areas into catholics live there protestants live here

I am not sectarian : far from it. Second, I am not happy "to divide areas into catholic live there protestants live here". I simply accept the situation as it exists : you cannot change history. The reality is that Belfast does have working class republican areas and working class loyalist areas. Everyone with an ounce of common sense knows that. I would actually prefer if there was more integration. As I said earlier, if you want integration to progress, the Catholic church should encourage integrated schools as much as the Protestant churches , so that children are not taught to hate each other as "much. The Catholic church could also relax its attitude to mixed marriages : it does not recognise the Protestant partners beliefs by insisting that the Catholic partner promise and do all they can to bring the children up as Catholics. Your attitude toward minorities moving in to housing communities "across the divide" in the North suggests Protestants are welcommed with open arms moving in to staunch republican communities. Far from it.

shltter wrote:

you accepted that catholics would be threatened
you said what do they expect
and to top it off you said there are plenty of other areas they can go and live in
you refered to catholics as spies as if every catholic was a member or supporter of the IRA

they are taking over
what do they expect
they can go and live somewhere else
you are a sectarian bigot trying to stand on the high moral ground you revealed your real self

I said "Catholics are allowed to live wherever they want. I am just surprised that Catholics would want to move in to a hardline Unionist working class area of Belfast, and expect there to be no bad feeling as a result." Catholics know they would not be welcome in Sandy Row, just as Prods would not move in to the Falls or Short Strand. Its not right, but thats the way it is at the moment.

I never said the catholics were taking over. However, some people in DSandy row would perceive that to be the case in their area depending on the sale of the new apartments. I never "refered to catholics as spies as if every catholic was a member or supporter of the IRA". I am just giving the perspective from some of the Sandy Row residents viewpoint if a Catholic couple moved in to their area.
As regards "they can go and live somewhere else" , that option is open to them. There are plenty of far nicer, friendlier places to live in Belfast and N. Ireland than Sandy Row. Nobody is forcing the Catholic couple to buy the apartment in Sandy Row - imagine the outcry if there was. They can buy the apt. in Sandy Row if they want to. Perhaps the piece of paper that they got was the work of a disgruntled schoolboy ? I do not know.

I condemn all crime, where crime has taken place. Do you condemn all crime....or would it depend on your definition of a crime. Maybe the abduction, torture and murder of a (originally protestant ) mother of ten from west Belfast would not be a crime in your book ? I asked you this already, but you failed to condemn it.

I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt I am not sectarian , racist or a bigot, all of which you accused me of being. If you are as good a man as Tony Blair, who apologised last week over wrongful imprisonments etc , you should apologise to me for your unfair accusations.

shltter

true wrote:

Originally Posted by true
"I said "I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein."

Yes the DUP have condemned, and do condemn murders by the UVF, UDA etc as well as by the IRA and INLA etc. That is on public record. Unlike Sinn Fein, the leaders of the DUP have never been accused by the all of British and Irish governments and parties of being terrorists, or leaders of a paramilitary group. Get your facts right, shltter. As a rule, the Unionist people of N. Ireland do not vote for terrorists."









Wrong again , shltter. Dr. Ian, as you call him, is not my hero, as you alledge.
I even said earlier "I am not a supporter of the DUP". Yet you accuse me of having its elderly leader as a hero ? Can you not read ? I have never even voted DUP. We are talking about the DUP, not Paisley. The point is it condemns all terrorism. Any DUP voters I ever met condemned loyalist as well as republican terrorism. Can the same be said of Sinn Fein? If you want to pick a party many of whose members / leadership have been convicted of terrorism offences in the past , I think this would be a better example.

what about DUP councillor ronald brolly convicted of arson on a catholic school
or sammy wilson who entertained 2 canadian gunrunners in the lord mayors mansion in belfast while they met with the leadership of the UVF

sammy wilson also attended the inaugral meeting of ulster resistance who bought arms from the then aparthied south african government
Wilson at the time declared, “Ulster Resistance has made it clear that it is preparing to defend Northern Ireland against aggression from Britain or the Republic of Ireland”. After the assassination of Catholic Gerald Slane, Wilson said “I have no regret that someone openly identified with terrorist organisations and activities meets his death the same way”. Both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and Slane's family refuted Wilson's “terrorist” claim.

shltter

true wrote:

I am not sectarian : far from it. Second, I am not happy "to divide areas into catholic live there protestants live here". I simply accept the situation as it exists : you cannot change history. The reality is that Belfast does have working class republican areas and working class loyalist areas. Everyone with an ounce of common sense knows that. I would actually prefer if there was more integration. As I said earlier, if you want integration to progress, the Catholic church should encourage integrated schools as much as the Protestant churches , so that children are not taught to hate each other as "much. The Catholic church could also relax its attitude to mixed marriages : it does not recognise the Protestant partners beliefs by insisting that the Catholic partner promise and do all they can to bring the children up as Catholics. Your attitude toward minorities moving in to housing communities "across the divide" in the North suggests Protestants are welcommed with open arms moving in to staunch republican communities. Far from it..

i would defend anyones right to live whereever they wished i would not predicate it on well they dont let us so we wont let them atitude that you seem to have
Nor would i predicate the rights of people to live anywhere on what their church preaches

true wrote:

I said "Catholics are allowed to live wherever they want. I am just surprised that Catholics would want to move in to a hardline Unionist working class area of Belfast, and expect there to be no bad feeling as a result." Catholics know they would not be welcome in Sandy Row, just as Prods would not move in to the Falls or Short Strand. Its not right, but thats the way it is at the moment.

I never said the catholics were taking over. However, some people in DSandy row would perceive that to be the case in their area depending on the sale of the new apartments. I never "refered to catholics as spies as if every catholic was a member or supporter of the IRA". I am just giving the perspective from some of the Sandy Row residents viewpoint if a Catholic couple moved in to their area.
As regards "they can go and live somewhere else" , that option is open to them. There are plenty of far nicer, friendlier places to live in Belfast and N. Ireland than Sandy Row. Nobody is forcing the Catholic couple to buy the apartment in Sandy Row - imagine the outcry if there was. They can buy the apt. in Sandy Row if they want to. Perhaps the piece of paper that they got was the work of a disgruntled schoolboy ? I do not know.

I condemn all crime, where crime has taken place. Do you condemn all crime....or would it depend on your definition of a crime. Maybe the abduction, torture and murder of a (originally protestant ) mother of ten from west Belfast would not be a crime in your book ? I asked you this already, but you failed to condemn it.

I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt I am not sectarian , racist or a bigot, all of which you accused me of being. If you are as good a man as Tony Blair, who apologised last week over wrongful imprisonments etc , you should apologise to me for your unfair accusations.

again you sink to the level of trying to tar everyone who disagrees with you as some how being complicit with the murder of an innocent woman
how dare you suggest that because I point out your sectarian atitudes that i would condone the murder of jean mcconville

you have proven nothing you are a sectarian bigot you perhaps have not realised it yet perhaps you are in denial like an alcoholic

true

shltter wrote:

i would defend anyones right to live whereever they wished i would not predicate it on well they dont let us so we wont let them atitude that you seem to have.
Nor would i predicate the rights of people to live anywhere on what their church preaches

I also would defend anyones right to live anywhere they wished - where did I say I would not ? No, I did not predictate it on "well they dont let us so we wont let them attitude". My whole point is why are you surprised some people in the staunch Sandy Row area do not want Catholics moving in ? Do you not know Northern Ireland. I said earlier there are good and people in each community. You have to plan your life according to some little grasp of reality, not as how you would like things to be in an ideal world.
I never said I would " predicate the rights of people to live anywhere on what their church preaches ". I think you have a lot to learn, shltter.

shltter wrote:

again you sink to the level of trying to tar everyone who disagrees with you as some how being complicit with the murder of an innocent woman
how dare you suggest that because I point out your sectarian atitudes that i would condone the murder of jean mcconville

you have proven nothing you are a sectarian bigot you perhaps have not realised it yet perhaps you are in denial like an alcoholic

Wrong again shltter. I never tarred everyone who disagreed with me as some how being complicit with the murder of an innocent woman. Never means never. And how dare you suggest I have a sectarian attitude.
I wrote "I condemn all crime, where crime has taken place. Do you condemn all crime....or would it depend on your definition of a crime. Maybe the abduction, torture and murder of a (originally protestant ) mother of ten from west Belfast would not be a crime in your book ? I asked you this already, but you failed to condemn it. "

true

Originally Posted by true
"I said "I am not a supporter of the DUP, but in all fairness to them they have consistently condemned all terrorist murders during the troubles, whither they were committed by republicans or loyalists. This is more than can be said for Sinn Fein."

Yes the DUP have condemned, and do condemn murders by the UVF, UDA etc as well as by the IRA and INLA etc. That is on public record. Unlike Sinn Fein, the leaders of the DUP have never been accused by the all of British and Irish governments and parties of being terrorists, or leaders of a paramilitary group. Get your facts right, shltter. As a rule, the Unionist people of N. Ireland do not vote for terrorists.""

shltter wrote:

what about DUP councillor ronald brolly convicted of arson on a catholic school
or sammy wilson who entertained 2 canadian gunrunners in the lord mayors mansion in belfast while they met with the leadership of the UVF

sammy wilson also attended the inaugral meeting of ulster resistance who bought arms from the then aparthied south african government
Wilson at the time declared, “Ulster Resistance has made it clear that it is preparing to defend Northern Ireland against aggression from Britain or the Republic of Ireland”. After the assassination of Catholic Gerald Slane, Wilson said “I have no regret that someone openly identified with terrorist organisations and activities meets his death the same way”. Both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and Slane's family refuted Wilson's “terrorist” claim.

You mention only two people, Wilson and brolly. One burns down a school building and the other refuses to condemn the murder of one particular individual because it is believed in certain quarters he is a republican terrorist.
You can give your versions of the above isolated events if you want, shltter. That is your right. I never denied there are / were some bad apples in the DUP, same as in most other political parties. The point I make is that in general, DUP policy is to condemn loyalist and republican violence. Two individual above do not prove anything. Probably hundreds of Sinn Fein / IRA members have been found guilty of murder, smuggling. arson, gun-running, etc over the years. I would condemn many of the things the two individual you mention said or done, but that does not mean the DUP does not condemn terrorist violence. You cannot tar all of the DUP with one brush. I am not a DUP supporter, but I believe fair is fair.