Cash Game Question

careca

Was playing a cash game in the Fitz on Fri night (only my second or third cash game so novice at it). I was doing very well and was about to take my profit and leave when the following holdem hand came up.

I was in MP and looked down to see AK of clubs. Raised to 15 (pot) and got three callers. Flop comes Q96 with two clubs. I was going to bet if it got to me but player ahead of me makes it 85. It was fairly obvious he had the Q with possibly two pair. Anyway I decided to call (regardless of odds). Last person to act also called making it a three way pot. Turn comes 4c. Happy Days, I have the nuts. So the two other players check to me and its decision time. Heres where I think I erred. I decided to either bet small and hope someone comes over the top or bet big and take the pot there and then. I know I would have been sick if I had bet small, got two callers and someone rivered me out of it, so I bet 200 and took the pot there and then.

Would you have tried to milk it at that stage or take it there and then ? Any advice or criticism welcome.

cgf

Check - raise was the way to go

A lot of debate re the "morals" of this tactic but if it gets ye the readies :cool:

Iago

Check - raise would have been my play as well..hope that one of the callers has an up and down straight draw or maybe AQo hitting the straight, trips or two pair on the river..

still it was a profitable hand and you ensured that you weren't outdrawn.

DeVore

Never heard anyone here argue the morals of check-reraising. Common tactic around these parts! I'd check and smooth call, give them the river, its unlikely enough to hurt you, besides I'm sure one of them is slow-playing a lower flush!
Taking the profit there and then is also good since its a big pot....

DeV.

Imposter

cgf wrote:

Check - raise was the way to go

A lot of debate re the "morals" of this tactic but if it gets ye the readies :cool:

Morals me ärse, it's no different than any other form of deception used at a poker table.

I think in some situations you have to take the risk that you won't be outdrawn. If this was a big pot for the table then take it down for all means. Also if you are sure you want to go and don't want to take any more risks then take it down.

However, I'd have put in a pretty solid but not huge bet there. More than 85 but not as high as 200. Possibly about 120. If you're lucky that might get guys in who are drawing dead who are figuring you to be trying to steal the pot or even those which have a lower flush themselves.

kencleary

DeVore wrote:

I'd check and smooth call, give them the river, its unlikely enough to hurt you, besides I'm sure one of them is slow-playing a lower flush!

DeV.

Why give em the River for free though? Its quite possible somebodys playing two pair or trips. Its unlikely they'll fill up on the river but they're getting to see a card for free. Then if the board does pair on the river then what are you going to do? It'd be hard to put down the flush on the river with a big pot like that. Much better to make them pay to see that river card i think.

BrendanB

I'm not sure if I follow: both players check to you? I thought there was someone to act after. Either way, chuck it in. I thinks there's about 350 or so in the pot (4*85+whatever)? It's quite likely given preflop raise that someone has a set, I'd discount two pair depending on how tight the callers are, A/K Q minimum.

The club is enough of a scare card that even a player with trips is going to drop it unless the board pairs at the end. So if you check you either win 350 if the rivers a blank, or lose potentially even more if it does pair and you end up calling.

If you bet small you're actually losing value to a player with trips. You can win 350 by betting: EV is 350*100% = 350 (worst case). Bet 50 and called, now you get 400 80% of the time = 320 (and that's in the best case when you pass on the river if you're beat). Any call that is worth making for him is bad for you.

Your best hope is you catch one of them with 2nd nut clubs and have them drawing dead. That's the only way you're going to make more money. So take your winnings, give generously and out the door!

I know the fitz can be loose enough to make inducing a bluff profitable sometimes, but unless their both absolute muppets they're not going to take a pop at it with a likely flush out there.


EDIT: I really need to type quicker, there was just the post and the 1 reply when I started

Juan Pablo

Get them and bet them in *that* cash game! I'm sure books and maths say otherwise but this is the fitz cash game and the likelihood of someone calling your 15 raise preflop and holding 9-6os is high! Take it down there and then, this is real money not tourney chips, if someone wants to break themselves against you then all good, make tham pay. Made a killing in the cash game on friday, no fannying around just bet the s hi t out of my hands when I hit getting people calling me with 3 outers and the like. I'm sure many would disagree but I've been playing the Fitz cash game for a year now and have done very well by sticking to the get'em and bet'em play. And walking around the casino when the holdem round is in play

DeVore

I understood there was at least one player to act after as well, my check would be part of a check-call or check-reraise plan. Its Hold'em rather then Omaha (where I'd be betting the pot!) so I'm not as worried if they all check and get the river for free. I'm *praying* for another club so I can maybe mug the lone Qc if its out there. I agree that a small bet to make them pay for the card works too, in fact in retrospect I'd prefer it as a play though I still like the check-reraise and it might garner you a pot-sized bluff-bet from the player after you. Check-calling might get you another on the river if its a blank or a club.

If you are the last to act then you *must* bet imho as you have no chance of a check-reraise or check-calling. Its bold not to milk them for the final card in some way shape or form...

DeV.

MadsL

You did the right thing IMHO, especially after I threw away $30 online in a 10/20c NL game on Fri when I had the nut flush on the turn. Flat called a small bet, river brings a paired board. Player bets, I go $5 more, he re-raises all-in. Another $25 to me to call, I can't resist, praying that he's got trips or a lower flush, I call and get f*cked by the FH.

Never again. I've thrown away my milking stool - All-in once I have the nuts in future.

careca

Sorry my post wasn't that clear. I was last to act after the turn. After the flop with four of us in , FP checks, next raises to 85, I call, fourth player folds and FP calls (I was worried about his check call). The two players left were certainly not muppets, actually very good players although they would be looser than myself. I way I looked at it, I was very happy to get that pot (around 300) and would have been mighty pissed off if I had let someone get a cheap card (I was never going to give it for free) and river me.


While I'm typing, here was another interesting hand. Player goes all in for about 25. Called in two places. Another player (player Y) makes it 75. BB raises to 220 and player Y puts the BB all in for about 340. BB turns over AA. As its a cash game, player Y doesn't have to reveal his cards and he keeps them turned down. I had him on QQ or KK. Flop comes Q810 rainbow. Player Y is extremely happy, kisses the dealer (luckily for him it was Sharon dealing) and turns over J9s. BB was not at all happy but took the beat well and the jibes about not reading that play in his poker book !!!

DeVore

If you are last to act then you have to bet imho. Not betting gives them infinite odds to draw to a house. The board pairing on the end is about 20-24% likely (depending if someone has trips already, which is what you are worried about). So a bet of 1/3rd - 1/2 the pot would be nice. You want him to call for that sort of money as he's wrong to call anything more then 1/4 of the pot (roughly), I'd bet about 100-150. 200 is too much, you *want* a caller, one of the biggest differences between Cash and Tournie play is that in a tournie you seldom REALLY want a caller, often you may have priced it right that its a mistake for someone to call and thats ok, but most of the time I dont want to take the risk because tournie chips are sacred and irreplaceable. In a cash game, its a straight maths question of odds, implied odds and probabilities imho.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

You dont give stack sizes, but in most cases you should be raising or reraising on that flop, you are a favourite over any 1 pair hand, because any club, Ace of King wins it for you. There are several reasons as to why raising is much better than calling:

a) allthough your a favorite your wont be on the turn, and a smart opponent can bet the pot on the turn which would be a bad call by you (if called)
b) If an Ace of K drops you are very unlikey to get significent action unless you are beaten. You have represented your hand to your opponents, so they have a significent advantage over you.
c) a raise here when you have nothing is good for long term meta-game considerations, to provide cover for your overpairs and trips.

BrendanB

I disagree HJ, if you are up against either AQ/KQ/trips it's a horrible raise. If he flat calls, you're over 4:1 against making it on the turn and face being in a 'difficult' (read: calling all-in with nothing) position then. On the flop if he has trips he sticks you all in, knocks out the competition (and any value) and you're looking at a call for all your chips when you are over three to one against. And come on: 'Meta-game'? English only at the table.

And Tom, even a half pot bet gives him implied odds on a set.

DeVore

Brendan, I am presuming the player has the nous to drop the hand if the board pairs, he also has position so will still get paid by a lower flush. I cant see any other hand calling for 100-150 on that turn. He may *think* he has the implied odds but thats a mistake, a mistake you want him to make too. Implied odds are more often observed in the breach imho...

Hector, you're talking about players who cant remember that you havent played in an hour and 3 will call your check-reraise preflop so there IS no meta game with them.
Also, online you can keep notes on specific players etc, offline memory isnt so exact. We're lucky if Bertie remembers where he is generally... And a few of the others wouldnt remember your name when sober!

DeV.

ps: Lol @ Brendan's "english only at the table!"... last night the Harry and others wouldnt stop yaking in Chinese so Vivion, Anto and I piped up in our best broken Irish ("Tá me mahogny gaspipes go dti on leithreas!" etc)

DapperGent

DeVore wrote:

noose

Nous.

DeVore

DapperGent wrote:

Nous.

Pedant.

Lafortezza

Why is everyone saying to check-raise? Careca is last to act, the other 2 players have checked to him when the club landed on the turn so the only thing to do in this situation is to stare at the chips in the middle, jab a pointed finger at it and say "Pot!"

You'll get a small stack going all-in with 2 pair or trips, and you might get some idiot with top set calling with high hopes for the house. If you underbet it imagine how dumb you'll feel when the board pairs on the river and someone bets €200 ahead of you.

bohsman

We're lucky if Bertie remembers where he is generally...

Highly inaccurate statement Bertie generally knows exactly whats going on at the table from whats in the pot to what people play, when you play against the same people the majority of the time you dont need to take notes you will remember yourself, this is why a lot of new players get paid of in the main game, people pay you of to see what your playing with

Hectorjelly

BrendanB wrote:

I disagree HJ, if you are up against either AQ/KQ/trips it's a horrible raise. If he flat calls, you're over 4:1 against making it on the turn and face being in a 'difficult' (read: calling all-in with nothing) position then. On the flop if he has trips he sticks you all in, knocks out the competition (and any value) and you're looking at a call for all your chips when you are over three to one against. And come on: 'Meta-game'? English only at the table.

And Tom, even a half pot bet gives him implied odds on a set.

In terms of equity your hand is equivalent to JQ here, and only slightly behind AQ or KQ, so even if you knew you would be called and were against KQ the dead money in the pot would make raising all in a + EV move. If he has trips then barring a read you pay him off, just like you would pay somebody off if you had an overpair.

I mentioned stack sizes because if the money is deep enough you cant raise here, because as you mentioned you cant get to the turn with much money behind, your raise on the flop must pot commit you both in reality and your opponents minds.

The most important factor which I forgot to mention is that calling means that the only way you have to win the hand is by hitting and showing down the best hand. There are a lot of cards that your opponent can hold that cant stand a reraise (JJ for instance), but a savvy opponent may well put you on a flush draw and bet again on the turn, which would be a bad call unless you think youll get paid off on the river. Raising will win the pot a lot without a showdown.

Meta-game considerations are simply considerations of the game outside of the specific hand.

Samba

I definitely think this is a situation where you have to bet.

With that said, had you checked very quickly giving other players the impression that the third club was a scare card for you also, if any lower flush hit and the board does not paired you can be almost sure he will move all in, with a bit of luck he will be the last remaining player before you to act and you will have one or two guys before that taking a stab at the pot on the river.

The gamble is, will the board pair or not? More than likely it won't.

Milking can be very profitable, but only if you are willing to laydown your nutflush, you have to ask yourself this question and answer it before any decision on your play is made. If you are willing to lay it down.

1 in 4/5 it will pair, so in terms of profit milking can be the right thing to do over a long period of time. Essentially you must have it in you to lay down these good hands, which alot of people have trouble doing.

careca

Samba wrote:

Milking can be very profitable, but only if you are willing to laydown your nutflush, you have to ask yourself this question and answer it before any decision on your play is made. If you are willing to lay it down.

1 in 4/5 it will pair, so in terms of profit milking can be the right thing to do over a long period of time. Essentially you must have it in you to lay down these good hands, which alot of people have trouble doing.

Good point Samba, I reckon I would have found it very hard to put down the nut flush if the board had paired. And yes I know thats a weakness in my game before anyone highlights it.

DapperGent

I would have found it very hard to put down the nut flush if the board had paired

Lafortezza

I reckon I would have found it very hard to put down the nut flush if the board had paired.

careca

Yes, its Still The Nut Flush, Its Just Not The Nut Hand (or Nuts).