Visa amnesty for immigrants

Zombrex

F Fiesta wrote:

Once again, from my own experience, the number of people that remember elements of the French language is much greater than the people who can speak Irish on the same scale.

What does that have to do with multi-culturalism and immigration?

We teach languages in our schools to our children to equip them in the modern world. We don't do it at the expensive of Irish. The French department in secondary schools don't grin when their students do bad in Irish Junior Cert.

It seems to me like you have issue with the way Irish is taught in schools and the irrleivence Irish people themselves put on the language. This has absolutly nothing to do with multiculturalism or immigration. As you said yourself you can't remember ever hearing Dublin people speak Irish. This hasn't changed since immigration increased. I really fail to see the connection you are making with non-nationals and multiculturalism.

Zombrex

dathi1 wrote:

as for new EU member states
some 40,000 citizens of the 10 new EU member states have moved to the country since May 1 last year, including 19,000 Poles. Ahearn is delighted

I have looked and looked and looked and I can't find any offical documents or statistics that quote this 40,000 immigrants number. I am not saying it is wrong, but does anyone have something a little more substantial to study over than a "sources say" quote from a news paper in Bahrain?

ArthurDent

F Fiesta wrote:

Personal thing/Problem.

It doesn't seem like it to you, it does to me.

How many people speak Irish in Dublin? How many speak a language such as, Chinese? There's a considerable difference. Would it bother you that the majority of Irish people could speak French and not Irish?

What's national identity for you?

To me being able to speak Irish fluently is not a measure of "national identity". I would imagine that even though the majority of citizens don't speak Irish, feel Irish.

If you're looking at outside influences that are affecting "national identity" I'm not sure I'd point fingers at foreign languages being spoken here as quick as I'd point to globalisation in tems of corporations (McDonalds, Nike, etc) and the constant ubiquitous presence of MTV, European/British soccer, Sky and NBC News - etc. I don't have any great problems with any of these things - but do think they go a long way to homogenisation of cultural experiences, which could lead to lack of "national identity".

bonkey

F Fiesta wrote:

How many people speak Irish in Dublin? How many speak a language such as, Chinese? There's a considerable difference. Would it bother you that the majority of Irish people could speak French and not Irish?

Not really.

Given that teh majority of Irish people speak English, and not Irish, its fair to say that if we measure our national identity by our ability to speak our native tongue, then its already too late - we have virtually no identity left, and the immigrants coming to this country have nothing to do with that, as we lost that identity long before they arrived in any numbers, and their arrival has done nothing to hinder our revival of it.

If, on the other hand, we do not measure our national identity by our ability to speak our native tongue....well....then your entire point seems to become meaningless as you are only discussing our Irish-speaking ability in terms of what your problem with the Chinese (and other) immigrants is, so there isn't much to answer in that case.


jc

GuanYin

ArthurDent wrote:

I'd point to globalisation in tems of corporations (McDonalds, Nike, etc) and the constant ubiquitous presence of MTV, European/British soccer, Sky and NBC News - etc. I don't have any great problems with any of these things - but do think they go a long way to homogenisation of cultural experiences, which could lead to lack of "national identity".

Oh come on, sure Sky have at least one Irish presenter and McDonalds always has the green Shamrock shake around Paddy's day! How on earth can you blame them?

Poker_Peter

I have looked and looked and looked and I can't find any offical documents or statistics that quote this 40,000 immigrants number. I am not saying it is wrong, but does anyone have something a little more substantial to study over than a "sources say" quote from a news paper in Bahrain?

The 40,000 figure was mentioned a night or two ago on RTE Radio 1 News I recall hearing on one of their late night/early morning news items (in a report on Bertie getting a European award in Poland) that 40,000 Poles work in Ireland. Unfornuately I cannot find this report on the net so presumably RTE don't put them all there. But that report I DID hear. It is very unlikely that 40,000 amounts to 100% of the numbers of migrants from the new EU member states since enlargement. The question has to be why we need a Green card system for non-EU migrants if we are already getting enough under the Enlargement dispensation.

Zombrex

Poker_Peter wrote:

The question has to be why we need a Green card system for non-EU migrants if we are already getting enough under the Enlargement dispensation.

But we are not, that is the point

GuanYin

Poker_Peter wrote:

It is very unlikely that 40,000 amounts to 100% of the numbers of migrants from the new EU member states since enlargement.

Why is this unlikely? What evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Incidently, www.eubusiness.com ran the same story. I'd imagine they are a slightly more reputable source but I'd still like to see the official references if anyone can provide em.

Zombrex

Poker_Peter wrote:

The 40,000 figure was mentioned a night or two ago on RTE Radio 1 News I recall hearing on one of their late night/early morning news items (in a report on Bertie getting a European award in Poland) that 40,000 Poles work in Ireland.

A minute ago (well last night) someone was claiming that it was 40,000 from the EU 10 and 19,000 from Poland.

This is the problem with these types of "statistics" ... when something is written down and we can all see exactly what is referred to in the statistics, then it is time to take it seriously.

BTW 40,000 in the first huge push since enlargement isn't that high a figure. There is no reason to believe as Arcade does, that Poland will manage to continuously produce 40,000 coming over. In fact we have no idea that that wasn't it, all the people in Poland who wanted to come over could have come over.

Poker_Peter

syke wrote:

Why is this unlikely? What evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Because we know from media coverage that there are plenty of migrants from the Baltic states here too. Poland is just one of 10 countries. It is naive in the extreme to believe that Poles are going to be the only new EU nationals to come to Ireland, especially when you consider that the Baltic states are even poorer than Poland.

Zombrex

Poker_Peter wrote:

syke wrote:

Why is this unlikely? What evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Because we know from media coverage that there are plenty of migrants from the Baltic states here too. Poland is just one of 10 countries. It is naive in the extreme to believe that Poles are going to be the only new EU nationals to come to Ireland, especially when you consider that the Baltic states are even poorer than Poland.

The more the merrier. We need all the help we can get if we are going to sustain our economic growth. I work with a Polish guy, he seems very well educated (higher than your average Irish person) and very very motivated to learn and work, something I think is lacking in a lot of Irish people.

Poker_Peter

Wicknight wrote:

Poker_Peter wrote:

The more the merrier. We need all the help we can get if we are going to sustain our economic growth. I work with a Polish guy, he seems very well educated (higher than your average Irish person) and very very motivated to learn and work, something I think is lacking in a lot of Irish people.

Given the choice between jobs in Ireland going to Irish people or Polish people, I will always put Irish people first. I see no benefit to Irish people in Irish people being passed over for jobs in favour of foreigners. Even so, I accept that we may need some foreigners to fill vacancies caused by labour-shortages. But I do not accept that beyond fulfilling that requirement, we need more immigrant labour than is necessary to fulfill the said requirement.

I don't accept as a rule that "the more the merrier". I feel that our immigration policy should be used by the Government as a tool to fulfill our economic needs, ie to fill job vacancies that can't be filled by Irish people. That should be its sole role. We are not a hotel!

billy the squid

Poker_Peter wrote:

Wicknight wrote:

Given the choice between jobs in Ireland going to Irish people or Polish people, I will always put Irish people first. I see no benefit to Irish people in Irish people being passed over for jobs in favour of foreigners. Even so, I accept that we may need some foreigners to fill vacancies caused by labour-shortages. But I do not accept that beyond fulfilling that requirement, we need more immigrant labour than is necessary to fulfill the said requirement.

I don't accept as a rule that "the more the merrier". I feel that our immigration policy should be used by the Government as a tool to fulfill our economic needs, ie to fill job vacancies that can't be filled by Irish people. That should be its sole role. We are not a hotel!

Therein lies the question though. do we have enough now or do we need more. I believe that we need more people to keep our economy going. As for whether or not I would higher a foreign national over an Irish person, I would if his qualifications were better than the irish person.

It was not too long ago when every sector of business was screaming out for people while there were 230,000 irish people drawing the dole. So if there are irish people out there who have a problem with foreign nationals taking irish jobs then they have no one to blame but themselves. those already in work should not have anything to worry about as there are laws in this country to help protect people in employment. Granted they are not perfect, if they were we wouldnt have trade unions, but at least they are something to fall back on.

ArthurDent

Poker_Peter wrote:

Wicknight wrote:

Given the choice between jobs in Ireland going to Irish people or Polish people, I will always put Irish people first. I see no benefit to Irish people in Irish people being passed over for jobs in favour of foreigners. Even so, I accept that we may need some foreigners to fill vacancies caused by labour-shortages. But I do not accept that beyond fulfilling that requirement, we need more immigrant labour than is necessary to fulfill the said requirement.

I don't accept as a rule that "the more the merrier". I feel that our immigration policy should be used by the Government as a tool to fulfill our economic needs, ie to fill job vacancies that can't be filled by Irish people. That should be its sole role. We are not a hotel!

I hope you're not on too many interview panels in the future or you'll be leaving yourself open to claims of discrimination.

Just in case you missed out on the whole EU thing....

From oasis.gov.ie

If you are an EU national, you are entitled to be treated like any other applicant when you apply for work in Ireland. You are free to apply for any job vacancy, including jobs in the public sector. The only exceptions relate to those positions that deal directly with the protection of the interests of the state, such as the army, the police force, the diplomatic service, etc. If you are qualified to practice a certain profession in your home country, then you will generally find that you are qualified to practice the same profession in Ireland. You will, however, need to apply for recognition of your training.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/working_in_ireland.html

Or do you want to be a bit more descriptive in the term "foreigner"?

ArthurDent

As to non-eu citizens - there are defined areas in which there are recognized labour shortages and work permits for non-EU citizens are allowed

as list of these can be found at
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/working_in_ireland/work_visas_authorise.html?search=work+permits+areas


and include

At present the designated categories are:

Information and computing technologies professionals/technicians
Architects
Construction Engineers
Quantity Surveyors
Building Surveyors
Town Planners
Registered Nurses
Medical Practitioners
Dentists
Diagnostic or Therapeutic Radiographers
Dieticians
Occupational Therapists
Orthoptists
Medical Physicists
Psychologists
Speech and Language Therapists
Social Workers
Medical Scientists
Physiotherapists
Hospital Pharmacists
ECG Technicians
Neurophysiological Measurement Technicians
Cardiac Catheterisation Technicians
Audiologists
Biochemists.

Poker_Peter

ArthurDent wrote:

As to non-eu citizens - there are defined areas in which there are recognized labour shortages and work permits for non-EU citizens are allowed

as list of these can be found at
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/working_in_ireland/work_visas_authorise.html?search=work+permits+areas


and include

At present the designated categories are:

Information and computing technologies professionals/technicians
Architects
Construction Engineers
Quantity Surveyors
Building Surveyors
Town Planners
Registered Nurses
Medical Practitioners
Dentists
Diagnostic or Therapeutic Radiographers
Dieticians
Occupational Therapists
Orthoptists
Medical Physicists
Psychologists
Speech and Language Therapists
Social Workers
Medical Scientists
Physiotherapists
Hospital Pharmacists
ECG Technicians
Neurophysiological Measurement Technicians
Cardiac Catheterisation Technicians
Audiologists
Biochemists.

Right. But beyond these job-categogies we should exclude non-EU nationals that do not have Irish citizenship. We are not a charity. Irish people should not have to compete for work with cheap-labour from poorer countries.

GuanYin

Poker_Peter wrote:

syke wrote:

Why is this unlikely? What evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Because we know from media coverage that there are plenty of migrants from the Baltic states here too. Poland is just one of 10 countries. It is naive in the extreme to believe that Poles are going to be the only new EU nationals to come to Ireland, especially when you consider that the Baltic states are even poorer than Poland.

Ermm if you check the link I posted you'd see that the claim is 19K polish immigrants out of 40k total.

So again I ask my question. What evidence is ther eto suggest it is unlikely?

ArthurDent

Poker_Peter wrote:

Right. But beyond these job-categogies we should exclude non-EU nationals that do not have Irish citizenship. We are not a charity. Irish people should not have to compete for work with cheap-labour from poorer countries.

OK now I'm confused - do you have a problem with poor EU or poor non-EU immigration.? Quite a few EU contries have a GDP way less than ours - you planning on keeping people out from these countries too? Cos if you are, its back to my post above again - they're EU citizens - end of story

MadsL

beyond these job-categogies we should exclude non-EU nationals that do not have Irish citizenship.

This IS the current situation EXCEPT if a company cannot find a suitably qualified EU national they can apply for a work-visa. Are you saying that this should be ended? If so, why?

Poker_Peter

MadsL wrote:

This IS the current situation EXCEPT if a company cannot find a suitably qualified EU national they can apply for a work-visa. Are you saying that this should be ended? If so, why?

No I am not saying this should be ended. However, the list of categories of industries where skills-shortages pertain should be kept under constant review.

sceptre

Poker_Peter wrote:

However, the list of categories of industries where skills-shortages pertain should be kept under constant review.

They are.

Poker_Peter

ArthurDent wrote:

OK now I'm confused - do you have a problem with poor EU or poor non-EU immigration.? Quite a few EU contries have a GDP way less than ours - you planning on keeping people out from these countries too? Cos if you are, its back to my post above again - they're EU citizens - end of story

The Baltic states have a GDP per capita less than 10% of ours, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that our average wage is an absolute fortune to them, and that even the kind of wages we were earning 15 years ago is an absolute fortune to them. Hence, there is an obvious risk of cheap labour competition losing Irish people their jobs.

I want to see an even playing field, with all EU states applying equa rules with respect to immigration entitlements for citizens of the new EU member states so as not to place Ireland at an undue risk of this happening.

Poker_Peter

sceptre wrote:

They are.

Let's hope it continues to be! Including under any future leftish governments. I have a feeling that Labour would want to let in people for the sake of it.

Zombrex

Poker_Peter wrote:

The Baltic states have a GDP per capita less than 10% of ours, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that our average wage is an absolute fortune to them

Not if they have to live here .. that philosphy only works if they work here for a bit, save money and then leave to go home to spend their savings. And if they do that then what is the problem again??

ArthurDent

Poker_Peter wrote:

Let's hope it continues to be! Including under any future leftish governments. I have a feeling that Labour would want to let in people for the sake of it.

Ehhh.....what? Any chance of any link that indicates this as labour policy?

ArthurDent

Poker_Peter wrote:

Let's hope it continues to be! Including under any future leftish governments. I have a feeling that Labour would want to let in people for the sake of it.

Just to be clear - it was the PD/FF govt that decided on working rights for the accession states,not a "leftish government". (Not that I have any problem with these regulations)

http://www.entemp.ie/press/2003/240303.htm

Poker_Peter

ArthurDent wrote:

Ehhh.....what? Any chance of any link that indicates this as labour policy?

Not specifically but they are always criticising government policy on immigration as being too harsh and that suggests strongly to me that they want an even more liberal policy. They have constantly called - to my recollection - for all asylum seekers to be given the right to work, which is a work-authorisation by the back-door, making claiming asylum the Santa Claus of those wanting to get jobs here by deceiving the Irish people.

Zombrex

Poker_Peter wrote:

Not specifically but they are always criticising government policy on immigration as being too harsh and that suggests strongly to me that they want an even more liberal policy. They have constantly called - to my recollection - for all asylum seekers to be given the right to work, which is a work-authorisation by the back-door, making claiming asylum the Santa Claus of those wanting to get jobs here by deceiving the Irish people.

You think it is better that they sit around doing nothing for a year or 2 while their application is processed, eating up tax money and not able to contribute anything to society?

sceptre

Poker_Peter wrote:

Let's hope it continues to be! Including under any future leftish governments. I have a feeling that Labour would want to let in people for the sake of it.

Pain in your big toe perchance?

(in case no-one noticed, you're moving the goalposts - from "they should be monitored" to "oh heavens they are, watch out for the pinkos as I reckon they might want to let all the foreigners in")

If you haven't got much more than a pain in your innards as a future sign of what Labour or anyone else might do, I'd suggest you go to a doctor.

F Fiesta

As Twain once said :

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."