Irish Fanatics

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

My 3 neices go to Scoil An tSeachtar Laoch in Ballymun and it is a fantastic school. I was never good at Irish in School but that does not mean it should not be encouraged.

Even the UK government is now ecouraging Scottish Gaelic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238991.stm

SCULLY

I think, as it has been mentioned in a previous post, is that the current way that Irish is been thought does not, on the whole , seem to work i.e. I, like all of us who went through the school system here, was taught Irish from the word go, yet my grasp on the language is , to say the least , quite bad. I started to learn French when I went to secondary school and still remember French verbs and a good smattering of conversational vocab today (and yet I left school in the same year that Maradonna scored against England with the hand of God!). Perhaps starting learning Irish from scratch in secondary school is the way to go (by all means make it compulsory) and concentrate and conversational Irish as opposed to Peig and it's ilk.

I don't think that it is a dead language and have no problems with dual language signs (though I though the recent campaign to have all EU documents published in Irish a bad idea).

A lot of posters have had a pop at the Irish language , saying it is dead and has no place in today’s life, but I think that it is a part of our identity (whether you personally speak it our not). I wonder how many of these people would object if , for example, the words of the Irish national anthem were changed into English or we start to call bertie the prime minister (just small examples but you get my point).

Corinthian

Corinthian wrote:

I have some ability to speak Latin. I know a good few other people who have a similar ability in the language. Does that mean that it’s not a dead language?

I got a line from Dictionary.com

A language, such as Latin, that is no longer learned as a native language by a speech community

personally, I don't know exactly what categorises a Dead language, however, I don't see Irish as being one. Irish is taught to children as a primary language still in Ireland, and that for me makes it a very real language.

Corinthian wrote:

Irish is also required in many non-State Jobs (Solictors / Barristers), however many government jobs are open to non-Nationals (my father being a case in point).

Aye, but for the most part there isn't a requirement to enter, work and live in Ireland. Sure there are selected jobs where its required. Other countries have these restrictions. Many jobs in France require you to be fluent in French, despite their own acknowledgement that English is the business language used. I know french is the primary language used, but english is used in many business premises to avoid problems.

Corinthian wrote:

Albeit anecdotal evidence, but I once knew a girl from Gaeltacht area who was in college with me and only spoke a few words of Irish. She recounted a visit by an inspector who coached them during the test and finally marked the family down as Irish speaking, even though, by her own admission it certainly was not.

fair enough. There will always be some that scam the system. Regardless, I'm not opposed to the removal of the Gaelteacht.

I'm against the movement of the removal of Irish as our national language. Or moves to completely remove the use of Irish in schools, or the complete withdrawal of funding from the language.

true wrote:

Well, its considerably more than ten years since I done my leaving, and I can remember a lot more that the mere three words of German you admitted to remembering.

Well done! You have a better facility for remembering languages than I do.

True wrote:

Its in our tourist related industries etc that I see the effects of our pathetic school language system the whole time. When checking in to a well known hotel in Ireland recently, there was a group of elderly continental visitors ahead of me, who had little or no English. None of the hotel receptionists had any French or German, yet they had wasted about one seventh of their acedemic / school lives studying a dead language they will probably never use a word of again.

And thats a problem with our education system for those languages involved. It has nothing to do with irish as a language.

I'm not saying that the education system in place for Irish is all rosey. Its not. Its actually quite rubbish. But doing away with the language is not the answer.

The Corinthian

Deleted User wrote:

personally, I don't know exactly what categorises a Dead language, however, I don't see Irish as being one. Irish is taught to children as a primary language still in Ireland, and that for me makes it a very real language.

I don’t think the language is dead, but it would be delusional to suggest that it is not on life support. Problem is that some are that delusional; I’ve sat in meetings with Education ministers who refused to even discuss the topic of how Irish education had failed and been told that Irish was on the way back as the language of Ireland by TnaG journos in the pub.

As things stand Irish will be a dead language by 2100, largely because the opiate of subsidy has stupefied its proponents into ignoring the present reality of the language with an optimistic fantasy.

true

Originally Posted by True
"Its in our tourist related industries etc that I see the effects of our pathetic school language system the whole time. When checking in to a well known hotel in Ireland recently, there was a group of elderly continental visitors ahead of me, who had little or no English. None of the hotel receptionists had any French or German, yet they had wasted about one seventh of their acedemic / school lives studying a dead language they will probably never use a word of again. "

gurramok wrote:

Your scenario can happen in any hotel in any country. It has happened to me in many a country the exact situation with little or no english spoken.
Should the hotel receptionists know every language in the globe ?

Irish language is not dead, if so..why do Irish language schools(alot of them) exist then ?

No, nobody suggested the hotel receptionists should know every language in the globe. However, after 13 or 14 years in the Irish school system, you would expect that at least the one or two per cent of those school leavers who come in to contact with continental visitors to have a smattering of a continental language between them . In my experience, Air Lingus air hostesses now are not much better. Then we claim we have a great educational system, when 99% of us cannot communicate with our fellow EU mainland citizens. Lucky for us, many of them can speak English.

Irish language may not be dead, but its as good as. Maybe it should not have been beaten in to us at school. Maybe people should not have been blackmailed in to having it if they wanted a job in the civil service, or to study
say engineering at UCD, UCG or UCC.

Dyr

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

My 3 neices go to Scoil An tSeachtar Laoch in Ballymun and it is a fantastic school. I was never good at Irish in School but that does not mean it should not be encouraged.

Even the UK government is now ecouraging Scottish Gaelic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238991.stm

I went there back in the day, its a VERY good school. Hopefully True will be pursuing his wee agenda with equal vigour against nigerians and chinese who will try to teach their kids their own languages while growing up in this english speaking country :rolleyes:

billy the squid

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

My 3 neices go to Scoil An tSeachtar Laoch in Ballymun and it is a fantastic school. I was never good at Irish in School but that does not mean it should not be encouraged.

Even the UK government is now ecouraging Scottish Gaelic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4238991.stm

I also vaguely remember a welch soap opera being given national broadcasts around 1994/1995 on BBc. It was a positive step on behalf of the national broadcaster in britain.

with regard to Trues's comments that the Irish language is dead. I would have to disagree with it. There are still families speaking it and teaching it to their children. therefore in my opinion the language is not dead as long as it is being passed down by parents to their children.

Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there.

true

billy the squid wrote:

I also vaguely remember a welch soap opera being given national broadcasts around 1994/1995 on BBc. It was a positive step on behalf of the national broadcaster in britain.

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it would not be so "vague" ( your word, not mine ) and it would still be running. The fact is, virtually nobody watched it.

billy the squid wrote:

with regard to Trues's comments that the Irish language is dead.
.

Actually, what I said in my last post wasx: "Irish language may not be dead, but its as good as". Which is true.

billy the squid wrote:

I would have to disagree with it. There are still families speaking it and teaching it to their children. therefore in my opinion the language is not dead as long as it is being passed down by parents to their children.

I never said there were not families out there speaking it and teaching it to their children. However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language. I have spent decades living and travelling in Ireland since I left school, and I never heard a word of Irish spoken since I left school except on RTE. When in shops and newsagents buying papers and magazines, I never saw any Irish language ones, not that I looked for them.

billy the squid wrote:

Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there.

LOL. LOL

true

billy the squid wrote:

I also vaguely remember a welch soap opera being given national broadcasts around 1994/1995 on BBc. It was a positive step on behalf of the national broadcaster in britain.

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it would not be so "vague" ( your word, not mine ) and it would still be running. The fact is, virtually nobody watched it. You cannot change the marketplace.

billy the squid wrote:

with regard to Trues's comments that the Irish language is dead.
.

Actually, what I said in my last post was: "Irish language may not be dead, but its as good as". Which is correct.

billy the squid wrote:

I would have to disagree with it. There are still families speaking it and teaching it to their children. therefore in my opinion the language is not dead as long as it is being passed down by parents to their children.

I never said there were not families out there speaking it and teaching it to their children. However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language. I have spent decades living and travelling in Ireland since I left school, and I never heard a word of Irish spoken since I left school except on RTE. When in shops and newsagents buying papers and magazines, I never saw any Irish language ones, not that I looked for them.

billy the squid wrote:

Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there.

LOL. LOL Lets keep the printers rich and the signs confusing and print them in Chinese and braille as well. Are Roadsigns already not in both Irish and English ? Except in the gaeltacht, where they are in Irish only? To really give the continental tourists no chance. At all at all. A fat lot of use us mumbling directions in Irish is to them when the vast majority of us cant speak a word of French or German to them. And a fat use the billions of euro that we have spent on the Irish language is, between gaeltacht grants, Irish language teachers, extra translating and printing costs etc. You could'nt make it up.

billy the squid

LOL. LOL Lets keep the printers rich and the signs confusing and print them in Chinese and braille as well. Are Roadsigns already not in both Irish and English ? Except in the gaeltacht, where they are in Irish only? To really give the continental tourists no chance. At all at all. A fat lot of use us mumbling directions in Irish is to them when the vast majority of us cant speak a word of French or German to them. And a fat use the billions of euro that we have spent on the Irish language is, between gaeltacht grants, Irish language teachers, extra translating and printing costs etc. You could'nt make it up.

It doesnt cost a hell of a lot now to put a few extra letters on a signpost. and your comments on putting roadsigns in braille is a little imature if not offensive.

There should be bilingual signs in the gaelteacht for parctical reasons. but removing Irish from certain official plaes such as roadsigns, government documents etc is not an unnecessary expense i think

sceptre

true wrote:

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it would not be so "vague" ( your word, not mine ) and it would still be running. The fact is, virtually nobody watched it.

I'm going to assume that Billy's referring to Pobal y Cwm (made for S4C by BBC Cymru and indeed broadcast on the Beeb as well a few years ago IIRC)and actually it's pretty popular (in other words, what gives you the right to say that nobody watched it when it's been successfully running for over 30 years and was the first UK soap to be broadcast five nights a week?) and sometimes actually good (Sky viewers who feel like tuning into the goings-on in Cwmderi can pick it up at 6 weekdays on s4c digidol (ch151 on an irish subscription) and there's an omnibus on Sundays). So while Billy's memories of it may be quite vague, I can tell that you've never heard of it which might be a poor basis for commenting on it. Also using your own logic, given that it's still running (new episodes five times a week) it may well have been a positive step but either way it can be entertaining for those of the Welsh persuasion or those interested in the spitty language.

Moving on, I realise (as you've mentioned it a number of times) that you've never seen an irish newspaper or magazine on sale in trips into newsagents. Might be the newsagents you're going into but I've seen a few over the years (I won't say "loads") and they do exist and presumably people are buying them. And I'm not looking for them either as I've little interest in the language of my great-great grandfathers (given that I'm from the east side of Cork I guess they were all speaking English by about 1890 or much earlier) apart from a very occasional learning interest in language in general and etymology in particular - I assumed I probably couldn't speak it in the last census and ticked the "never speak it box" as well. As I did for the one before.

Now, on to this notion of "billions" (of euros I assume) spent on the Irish language, have tyou got anything to support that? Obviously we've spent quite a bit of dosh on it and I'd see quite a bit of that as wasted money as it's been badly targetted but "billions" sounds like tabloid sensationalism unless you've got something to back that word up (as it was obviously important enough to you to put that in instead of "piles").


As a general comment, as I've said before, in my opinion the Irish language is on its terminal death bed as a spoken (or living) language outside the lab (or rather classroom). I'd still like to see a reasonable discussion where the subject is brought up though, as "I didn't like it in school and it was rammed down me throat" is really only as good a basis for discussion as any other personal opinion of a personal perception of a personal experience. Ditto with "I loved it in school and our teacher gave us a great love for the language and I think it's wunnerful". Not that you can't say either of those things of course but I wouldn't seek to presume and base a line of argument on your own grá or fuath for whatever you learned in the classroom.

true

billy the squid wrote:

It doesnt cost a hell of a lot now to put a few extra letters on a signpost.

You go round and do say 25,000 signs in Chinese,( which incidentally is a more spoken language in Ireland than Irish) , if it doesnt cost a hell of a lot as you claim. No, the real waste of time and money in Irish, is the amount of time and effort thats put in to drumming it in to our schoolkids, day in , day oiut, until leaving cert., whither they want to or not.

billy the squid wrote:

and your comments on putting roadsigns in braille is a little imature if not offensive.

It was tongue in cheek, I said " the signs confusing and print them in Chinese and braille as well. Are Roadsigns already not in both Irish and English ? Except in the gaeltacht, where they are in Irish only". Virtually all tourists driving around this country complain about our signs. I remember a poor group of continentals tourists ( who were completely disorientated and lost in Dublin ) once and asking where "An Lar" was, it was on the front of so many buses. Someone said to me " Ah sure I suppose it helps the odd culchi up from the gaeltacht, who cares about anyone else."

billy the squid wrote:

There should be bilingual signs in the gaelteacht for parctical reasons. but removing Irish from certain official plaes such as roadsigns, government documents etc is not an unnecessary expense i think

"not an unnecessary expense". ?????? I never discussed removing " Irish from certain official plaes such as roadsigns, government documents etc "

You said earlier "Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there." I gave my response. LOL
Begorrah, ye couldnt make it up.

true

sceptre wrote:

I'm going to assume that Billy's referring to Pobal y Cwm (made for S4C by BBC Cymru and indeed broadcast on the Beeb as well a few years ago IIRC)and actually it's pretty popular (in other words, what gives you the right to say that nobody watched it when it's been successfully running for over 30 years

I said "virtually nobody", not nobody. If you check out the TAM ratings I think you will see that it does have a very small audience, but the television channell is very politically correct and has to be seen to be so and hence produces programmes for minorities. I think it is notunreasonable that minorities should have their own programme the odd time as well.
The name of the programme "Pobal y Cwm" does not exactly spring to mind as being as popular as Cornie St, Eastendersm The Bill, Emmerdale or any of those. I always prefered Glenroe myself. ( I'm not joking ) to the uk soaps.

sceptre wrote:

Now, on to this notion of "billions" (of euros I assume) spent on the Irish language, have tyou got anything to support that? Obviously we've spent quite a bit of dosh on it and I'd see quite a bit of that as wasted money as it's been badly targetted but "billions" sounds like tabloid sensationalism unless you've got something to back that word up (as it was obviously important enough to you to put that in instead of "piles").

Fair point. Hands up, I probably exagerated saying billions. But lets say one seventh of school time is spent teaching Irish , which is a fair estimate I would say , then one seventh of the government education budget is spent on Irish. How much does that total since the foundation of the state. Billions ?
And what about the language translating costs, extra printing costs, Udaras na Gaeltacht grants, other Gaeltacht expenditure and grants etc.

sceptre

true wrote:

I said "virtually nobody", not nobody.

The quantifiable difference being?

Actually I didn't notice you saying "nobody or "virtually nobody", I was more interested in your conclusion that the show was an obvious failure as it had ended when it hadn't ended at all.

If you check out the TAM ratings I think you will see that it does have a very small audience

I don't necessarily see the need to check out the Nielsens (it is Nielsens in the Uk these days I think though I'm not sure tbh) for terrestrial or the BARBs for satellite viewing as it's definitely got a small audience relatively speaking given that it's only broadcast on a Welsh-language channel that a minority in the UK can receive. It's consistently in the channel's top five shows though, which you'll notice if it's important enough for you to check out the ratings. In other words, now you essentially have to demonstrate that s4c itself is a waste of time (if you feel the need) rather than the particular show as it's one of their more popular shows. or we can stop the whole Welsh thing if you like as unlike Welsh, there are rather fewer Irish people over schooling age who can speak the original language of their country (which is why I've never seen Welsh as a good comparison to make for Irish as unlike Irish, Welsh is growing in numbers, even among people who've emigrated into Wales from outside the EU (see the UK 2001 census for details))

but the television channell is very politically correct

Channel 4? Or s4c in particular? Or the BBC?

and has to be seen to be so and hence produces programmes for minorities.

I'd disagree with the "has to be seen to be so" as I reckon that's a bunch of arse myself (channel 4 does its best to be politically incorrect where possible, s4c doesn't have much of an agenda beyond the language and the BBC are forever being criticised for one thing or another) but all the above channels produce programmes for minorities because they're required to in their charter or broadcasting licence. They might do it anyway, I don't know that they would and you don't know that they wouldn't. In the case of a Welsh-language channel obviously they're not transmitting a Welsh-language show for a minority of their audience in any case, they're transmitting a Welsh-language show for the vast majority of their audience (however small that audience may be, find out how small that potential audience is if you're going to base anything on the rough number of Welsh speakers to apply it to Irish)

I think it is notunreasonable that minorities should have their own programme the odd time as well.

The British government, BBC governers and C4 administrators must agree with you, which is probably why they wrote it into the charter or licences. At worst it's as valid as a documentary about the lesser spotted snorkelback, at best more people might watch any given minority language show in the UK as a percentage of the potential audience that can receive it than you might think. Or not. Either way the audience is small but we knew that already.

The name of the programme "Pobal y Cwm" does not exactly spring to mind as being as popular as Cornie St, Eastendersm The Bill, Emmerdale or any of those.

Worth keeping in mind that the show started in the seventies and initially based itself on the goings-on in the local shop, pub and church. They only sexed it up in the last few years (just like Corrie incidentally) (it's Pobol y Cwm rather than Pobal btw, my fault for jotting in the typo). While the title isn't exactly racy (not that Emmerdale Farm was either), it's instantly recognisable to Welsh people as referring to them and this was probably important back when it started. Back before the storylines revolved around kidnappings, suicides, faked deaths, drug-running and love triangles. Oh you'd be surprised what kind of shenanigans go on in little Welsh villages.

How much does that total since the foundation of the state. Billions ?

I've genuinely no idea whatever. More than a tenner and less than a gazillion is as good a guess as I'll give without some actual thought, a copy of the Finance Bills for the past eighty years and a calculator. That's why I was wondering why you were possibly grossly exaggerating to make your position all the more righteous. Incidentally one-seventh of time doesn't equal 14% of the expense, at least at secondary level. Science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools.

billy the squid

You said earlier "Should Roadsigns be both in Irish and english. yes. believe it or not there are some in ireland whose first language is still irish. It might not e alot of people but they are out there." I gave my response. LOL
Begorrah, ye couldnt make it up.

you dont believe that there are people in this country whose first language is irish? enlighten us all (without the snide remarks btw)

Perhaps 99.9% of the people who pay the BBC licence fee would disagree. What gives you the right to declare it was a positive step ? If it was positive, memories of it

1. I don't speak welch so I had little interest in it.

2. I was a teenager so didnt have time to either watch every episode or ake note of the name of it in for someone that might question me about it ten years later.

3. I believe that it was a positive step as it included not only people in wales but included any welch people who had moved to other parts of the UK in a time when other UK regions were not availible in other parts of the UK. Alternative regions are now availible anywhere in the UK thanks to sk digital.

true

billy the squid wrote:

you dont believe that there are people in this country whose first language is irish? enlighten us all
.

I never said there were not families out there speaking it and teaching it to their children. However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language. Over the years, I have spent some short holiday time in the Gaeltacht areas of Kerry, Galway and Donegal and even in the petrol station there last year I remember the local youths in the shop talking in English, and speaking to me in English before I opened my mouth. Perhaps they only speak through Irish when they are looking for grants? I am sure there must be some families who communicate through Irish. ( and fair dues to them, they can communicate through swaheli for all I care ). My point is that as a percentage of the total Irish population it must be very small.

oscarBravo

true wrote:

However, the fact that there is more Chinese spoken now in this country than Irish shows that Irish is not really a spoken national language.

It does?

true wrote:

Over the years, I have spent some short holiday time in the Gaeltacht areas of Kerry, Galway and Donegal and even in the petrol station there last year I remember the local youths in the shop talking in English, and speaking to me in English before I opened my mouth. Perhaps they only speak through Irish when they are looking for grants?

That's just a tad cynical, no?

I was in a plumbing supplies shop in Castlebar (not normally considered the centre of the Irish-speaking universe) a while ago, and there was a woman at the counter looking for something. When the merchant offered her a choice that confused her, she made a call on her mobile: "An bhfuil Máirtín ansin? ..."

true

sceptre wrote:

Actually I didn't notice you saying "nobody or "virtually nobody", I was more interested in your conclusion that the show was an obvious failure as it had ended when it hadn't ended at all.

I did not use the phrase " the show was an obvious failure "!
It is interesting that you call the Irish language a "show". A freudian slip perhaps? I suppose that as Irish is no practical use in the world, is that all it is, a show? A show which so much time, effort and money is pumped in to.
Would you say it is a show which has being promoted for asthetic or political reasons, or what ?

sceptre wrote:

I don't necessarily see the need to check out the Nielsens (it is Nielsens in the Uk these days I think though I'm not sure tbh) for terrestrial or the BARBs for satellite viewing as it's definitely got a small audience relatively speaking given that it's only broadcast on a Welsh-language channel that a minority in the UK can receive. It's consistently in the channel's top five shows though, which you'll notice if it's important enough for you to check out the ratings. In other words, now you essentially have to demonstrate that s4c itself is a waste of time (if you feel the need) rather than the particular show as it's one of their more popular shows. or we can stop the whole Welsh thing if you like as unlike Welsh, there are rather fewer Irish people over schooling age who can speak the original language of their country (which is why I've never seen Welsh as a good comparison to make for Irish as unlike Irish, Welsh is growing in numbers, even among people who've emigrated into Wales from outside the EU (see the UK 2001 census for details))

Census can show a lot a things re languages. To read the Irish census you would think Irish was a spoken language everywhere in Ireland and that you would hear it the whole time in shops, on the bus, in taxis etc.
My point re the popularity of the welsh language programme is that a very small per centage of the licence payers in the UK would watch such a programme. This being said, I do agree with some programmes for minorities.

sceptre wrote:

I'd disagree with the "has to be seen to be so" as I reckon that's a bunch of arse myself (channel 4 does its best to be politically incorrect where possible, s4c doesn't have much of an agenda beyond the language and the BBC are forever being criticised for one thing or another) but all the above channels produce programmes for minorities because they're required to in their charter or broadcasting licence. They might do it anyway, I don't know that they would and you don't know that they wouldn't.

I repeat : the television stations have to be politically correct. If they are seen to be not so, they attract immediate attention and criticism. Channel 4 does produce a lot of programmes for minorities. In a democracy the size of the UK, made up of so many ethnic minorities and groups, I am not surprised the BBC is "forever being criticised for one thing or another". It still has to strive to be politically correct.

sceptre wrote:

The British government, BBC governers and C4 administrators must agree with you, which is probably why they wrote it into the charter or licences. At worst it's as valid as a documentary about the lesser spotted snorkelback, at best more people might watch any given minority language show in the UK as a percentage of the potential audience that can receive it than you might think. Or not. Either way the audience is small but we knew that already.

Agreed.

sceptre wrote:

Worth keeping in mind that the show started in the seventies and initially based itself on the goings-on in the local shop, pub and church. They only sexed it up in the last few years (just like Corrie incidentally) (it's Pobol y Cwm rather than Pobal btw, my fault for jotting in the typo). While the title isn't exactly racy (not that Emmerdale Farm was either), it's instantly recognisable to Welsh people as referring to them and this was probably important back when it started. Back before the storylines revolved around kidnappings, suicides, faked deaths, drug-running and love triangles. Oh you'd be surprised what kind of shenanigans go on in little Welsh villages.

Bit like the goings on in Glenroe. Fine, whatever people want.

sceptre wrote:

I've genuinely no idea whatever. More than a tenner and less than a gazillion is as good a guess as I'll give without some actual thought, a copy of the Finance Bills for the past eighty years and a calculator. That's why I was wondering why you were possibly grossly exaggerating to make your position all the more righteous. Incidentally one-seventh of time doesn't equal 14% of the expense, at least at secondary level. Science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools.

If "science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools" , Irish must cost a lot more. Say one sixth of primary school time / textbooks etc is devoted to Irish. None to science. In secondary school, say one seventh of school time, textbooks etc is devoted to Irish as well as science up to junior cert. Not everyone who does the leaving cert studies science, but everyone (Irish) by law has to study Irish. OK, I know there may be relatively small costs for chemistry insurance and materials, but overall Irish must cost MORE "than a frigging fortune". Besides all this, Doctors , chemists, engineers, scientists, pharmacists and nurses etc need to study science as a foundation for their careers. We could live without Irish being taught to Doctors , chemists, engineers, scientists, pharmacists and nurses etc, but could we live without science being taught to them ?

Next time I meet my friendly doctor , chemist, engineer, pharmacist and nurse, I must ask them had they anyone who ever asked them something in Irish. I know examples of each of the above professions who think Irish is a complete waste of taxpayers money, and students time.

embraer170

When in shops and newsagents buying papers and magazines, I never saw any Irish language ones, not that I looked for them.

Not only that but if you spoke Irish, the newsagent would probably think you're mad.

The whole country being held at ransom by an absolute minority. I have no problem with those with an interest taking initiative to keep our heritage alive, but the present situation is unsustainable. Over 20% of total compulsory education teaching time is dedicated to a subject which is never put to practical use by a majority. Statistics can be twisted which ever way you want (census irregularities have been mentioned above), but walk down any Irish main street, walk into any pub or take a walk down the train on your commute home, I bet you’ll hear more Chinese, German and Polish spoken than Irish (and not by tourists).

Not to mention the cost to the payer, it is damaging Ireland’s competitiveness (we are the only ‘EU of 15’ country not to teach science at primary school level)

True

not going to post on the latest points, but i wanted to comment on this,

True wrote:

No, nobody suggested the hotel receptionists should know every language in the globe. However, after 13 or 14 years in the Irish school system, you would expect that at least the one or two per cent of those school leavers who come in to contact with continental visitors to have a smattering of a continental language between them . In my experience, Air Lingus air hostesses now are not much better. Then we claim we have a great educational system, when 99% of us cannot communicate with our fellow EU mainland citizens. Lucky for us, many of them can speak English.

I must admit i'm a bit confused as to why you're pointing at the irish Language as being the problem here. When i went to school, I learnt German as my foreign language. Some students chose to learn a second foreign language (usually spanish), which was totally unrelated to their learning of Irish. Sure, it may have made their school-life easier not to have irish aswell, but they did have a forign language to learn, and pass.

People in Ireland not having another language to speak, isn't the fault of Irish as a subject. Its our own fault for not learning the foreign language well enough. I did "honors" German, and as I've said before i only know a few words anymore. Am I blaming my time spent on learning Irish, because I lost my ability to speak German? No. It was my own fault, since I didn't choose an area of work with german, or i didn't involve it in my personal life....

embraer170 wrote:

Not only that but if you spoke Irish, the newsagent would probably think you're mad.

depends where you are. Some places are more "irish" than others. Dublin? Not a chance. Galway? Some would probably understand, but I'd say half and half...

Not to mention the cost to the payer, it is damaging Ireland’s competitiveness (we are the only ‘EU of 15’ country not to teach science at primary school level)

Irelands competitiveness is being damaged by our teaching the national language in schools..... Right. Ok. Actually, I don't follow you. Expand on this please.

embraer170

depends where you are. Some places are more "irish" than others. Dublin? Not a chance. Galway? Some would probably understand, but I'd say half and half...

I live in Kerry (few places more "Irish") and frankly I don't think even half would understand.

Irelands competitiveness is being damaged by our teaching the national language in schools..... Right. Ok. Actually, I don't follow you. Expand on this please.

- 20% of compulsory education hours being used by a subject without practical future use for the majority (again I have no problem offering it as an elective)
- Only 'EU of 15' not to teach science at primary level. French kids finish national school with almost the same level of biology as an Irish kid entering the 3rd (Junior Cert.) year.
- There is at least some link between that and ever reducing numbers of students doing science at 3rd level. Companies with a need for science graduates are going elsewhere and the sustainability of the manufacturing based economy is questionable (just read last week's papers).

Finally we are seeing attempts to teach other languages (mainly French) at primary school, which seems natural but it is again reducing time for core subjects such as Maths. My feeling is that compulsory Irish is too much, and I am sure many parents and teachers would agree.

delop

there is an old saying, that goes something like, 'If we loose our Native language, we loose our memories'

embraer170

there is an old saying, that goes something like, 'If we loose our Native language, we loose our memories'

And if people run out of real arguments, they start using the old sayings.

sceptre

true wrote:

I did not use the phrase " the show was an obvious failure "!
It is interesting that you call the Irish language a "show". A freudian slip perhaps?

Freudian in that you imagined it perhaps. Show me where. Consider that I might have been talking about the TV show that I was talking about.

true wrote:

Census can show a lot a things re languages. To read the Irish census you would think Irish was a spoken language everywhere in Ireland and that you would hear it the whole time in shops, on the bus, in taxis etc.

When i read the results of the last census I thought that it showed a truckload of kids were speaking Irish in schools. Not that this was news. WOrking through the figures, I thought it revealed that a tiny tiny amount of people were using Irish as a first language on a regular basis. It's all there in the figures if you look for them. Alternatively I did some number crunching in a thread about eight months or so back that in my opinion, may place the possible amount of people using Irish as a first language on par with the population of a mid-sized provincial town (and that's not very many people). Search for it, I reckon it's not all that relevant but if you insist on talking about the census it'll help your argument that no-one's using the damn thing anyway.

If "science costs a frigging fortune to provide in schools" , Irish must cost a lot more.

Er, no. Simply put, because you don't have to buy a boatload of equipment for Irish (oh you probably can but you don't have to). That's also part of the reason that secondary education is dramatically more expensive than primary education, which is almost solely book-led. My secondary school had four science labs, all decked out with equipment galore. Expensive equipment. Hardly unique (it was an ordinary secondary school in an Irish town), although most schools would have probably have only three labs. For Irish most secondary schools would have books bought by the students, perhaps a book bought for the teacher and an aging TV and video wheeled in once in a blue moon. Ask the Department of Education what's the most expensive section of education in this country by far. They'll tell you it's science without drawing a breath.

You're belting away at the education cost competition remorselessly when you'd be better off talking about the possible cost without quantifying it (as you can't, or can make vague guesses that aren't worth anything) or comparing it (because it comes rather down the cost list).

true

sceptre wrote:

Freudian in that you imagined it perhaps. Show me where. Consider that I might have been talking about the TV show that I was talking about

OK, fair point, I thought when I read "the show was an obvious failure" you were talking about the Irish language. A genuine misunderstanding.

sceptre wrote:

When i read the results of the last census I thought that it showed a truckload of kids were speaking Irish in schools. Not that this was news. WOrking through the figures, I thought it revealed that a tiny tiny amount of people were using Irish as a first language on a regular basis. It's all there in the figures if you look for them. Alternatively I did some number crunching in a thread about eight months or so back that in my opinion, may place the possible amount of people using Irish as a first language on par with the population of a mid-sized provincial town (and that's not very many people). Search for it, I reckon it's not all that relevant but if you insist on talking about the census it'll help your argument that no-one's using the damn thing anyway.

Yes, but the wording of the question about proficiency in Irish in the census was vague. People with an emotional attachment, or to make out they were not stupid, would not necessarily "tick" the correct vague box as to their skills in Irish. I cannot remember the exact wording, sorry, but I do remember someone with eg six words or six thousand words could tick the same box, and the results of that box could be interpreted to the advantage of those with a vested interest eg the Gaeltacht people etc.

sceptre wrote:

Er, no. Simply put, because you don't have to buy a boatload of equipment for Irish (oh you probably can but you don't have to). That's also part of the reason that secondary education is dramatically more expensive than primary education, which is almost solely book-led. My secondary school had four science labs, all decked out with equipment galore. Expensive equipment. Hardly unique (it was an ordinary secondary school in an Irish town), although most schools would have probably have only three labs. For Irish most secondary schools would have books bought by the students, perhaps a book bought for the teacher and an aging TV and video wheeled in once in a blue moon. Ask the Department of Education what's the most expensive section of education in this country by far. They'll tell you it's science without drawing a breath.

You're belting away at the education cost competition remorselessly when you'd be better off talking about the possible cost without quantifying it (as you can't, or can make vague guesses that aren't worth anything) or comparing it (because it comes rather down the cost list).

Science is a necessary subject for todays modern society eg medical profession, engineers, scientists, etc etc. It is vitally important to our economy and well being and international competiveness.
Second point, Science labs may be expensive, but when they are built and equipped they are built and equipped. The main cost in education is salaries, pensions etc of teachers / admin staff etc. How many hours are spent by the average student between the years say 5 to 18 in science labs being taught by science teacher ? Probably only a quarter of the hours spent doing Irish in primary + secondary school.

Let Irish be available to those who want to study it. But it is not on to have it compulsory to leaving cert. Might as well study swaheli.

In my experience if some of the time studying Irish was devoted to extra time studying say a continental language, then maybe we as a nation would not be so pathetic at foreign languages.