Gaeilge Fanaticism in YOUR Trinity Student Union

gom

Hi folks

While I fully support the promotion of Gaeilge as a language I am not in anyway positive about the current teaching methods or language policies that are justified by the government and various interest groups as necessary to promote Gaeilge. In many ways government policy is too weak and school based policy is miss directed.
I'd like also to state that I changed my name last october by deed poll to its Gaeilge version, e.g. "Graham Mooney" became "Graham Ó Maonaigh". Not that it proves anything.

This very night I almost found myself needing to fight a motion that was presented to Trinity College Students Union by its Irish officer and Deputy President.
The wording of the motion to the Student Union is as follows:

1. Proposal for Schedule 13
The aim of this policy is to support the use of the Irish language in the
Students’ Union, in Trinity, and generally. The Union believes that the rights
of Irish-speakers must be upheld and promoted in all Union activities, and
thus hereby recognises the Irish language, English language, and Irish Sign
Language (ISL) as official languages of the Students’ Union.
1. The Union shall ensure that:
(a) Every permanent sign purchased by the Union will be bilingual
(b) Temporary signs/posters shall be bilingual as far as possible
(c) All union forms and documents will be available in both languages
(d) Union staff & officers will be encouraged to initiate communication with
students and the general public in Irish (e.g. bilingual telephone greetings,
etc.)
(e) communications with College be in Irish where feasible, in particular
following from the implementation of the Official Languages Act
(f) All sabbatical officers take responsibility for implementing this policy
within their own remit, subject to the advice and guidance of the Executive
and Oifigeach na Gaeilge
2. The Union shall campaign for:
(a) full compliance by the College with the Official Languages Act
(b) the encouragement of the use of the Irish language among students and
staff
(c) more Irish classes to be made available, and better promoted
(d) the increased use of Irish in College publications
(e) the rights of Irish speakers, nationally and locally, to communicate
through the language of their choice
3. The use of the Irish language at Council meetings shall be encouraged and
supported, provided that written motions are provided in both Irish and
English. In accordance with Schedule 11, the use of ISL (Irish Sign
Language) will continue to be promoted at Council meetings.
Proposed: Kevin O’Brien, Oifigeach na Gaeilge
Seconded: Ruth Ní Eidhin, Deputy President

Taken from TCD statistics website

Of the 15,511 students registered in 2002/03:
87% were Irish
7% were European (EU)
3% were North or Central American
3% were from other parts of the world

Therefore we can take that there was 13,495 Irish-nationality students in Trinity College in 2002/2003.


The following information is taken from the CSO website

No Ability to Speak Irish in 2002 Census = 2,097,263
Ability to Speak Irish in 2002 Census = 1,570,894

Therefore, 57.17% of the Irish population that responed to the Census in 2002 have no ability to speak Irish

On this information we can deduce the following :

7,715 Irish TCD students have NO ability to speak Irish(based on CSO and TCD figures)
5,780 Irish TCD students have an ability to speak Irish(based on CSO and TCD figures)

So not only are Irish speakers a minority nationally, They only represent 37% of Trinity College Students which is roughly the exact same as the national figure and seen as the average age of a trinity student is much lower than the national average it is reasonible to assume that the figure of those with the ability to speak Irish ia actually less than 37% of the student population.

Sorry for all the crazy statistics. Essentially I support Gaeilge language promotion policies, but the Student Union of Trinity College is there to represent the students of TCD not the nation or asperations of SF, FF or any Gael Gaor societies.
The above motion could not be voted on by the Student Union council as it had not reached its quota. It will be put again to the SU council next week.

If this passes essentially this will act as a huge barrier to entry to non-Irish speakers and especially any one who is an international student.

Currently there is a candiadate running for election in the Student Union Sabbathical elections in Trinity College is an international student and is viewed by many as the favorite. If elected and the motion is passed at next SU council, he will have to learn Irish fast and speak in it as his primary language all because of some short sighted Gaeilge fanatics

I would encourage anyone who reads this to talk to their Class Rep about it and make their views and comments to the drafters(Kevin O'Brien and Ruth Ní Eidhin) of the motion as they are the only two people who can amend/withdraw their motion without a vote on the amendment. Otherwise any other 2 Class Reps can put an amendment to it as long as the motion retains its original ethos.

Please try and view it from the prospective of an International student as even non-Irish speaking Irish folk wield a suprising nostalgia toward the Irish language that essentially will lead to the disinfranchisment of non-irish students.

Thanks for your Time folks

P.s. Sorry Kev and Ruth. I'm not out to get either of you but this is a major issue



________________________
Graham Ó Maonaigh

xeduCat

Hey, will post info on when this motion will be debated as soon as it's confirmed.

To be fair I don't think it would require anyone to learn Irish or speak it. All it would require officers to do is to promote, highlight, support etc. I don't think you have to speak Irish to support bilingual signs! (or whatever). There's certainly no intention to exclude non-Irish speakers from taking office, this would be against all the existing rules anyway as well as being perhaps a wee bit illegal.

I know plenty of non-Irish speakers who would be happy to agree with forms being available in both languages (or multiple languages - why not?), despite not speaking it themselves. Similarly, I've been doing my best to make progress on the use of sign language (ISL) this year, despite knowing virtually no sign.

The SU has previously had great officers who speak/understand no Irish (and I include in that Irish and non-Irish officers). Nothing should ever be done to exclude ANYONE from office. If the wording needs to be tightened up in any way to fix that, I can't imagine there being any difficulty with that in the world...

Nietzschean

i agree, i'd write a proper reply but sleep time.

gom

This section is the particularly strong wording which I am suprised to see so comprehensively drawn up is quoted below.

1. The Union shall ensure that:
(d) Union staff & officers will be encouraged to initiate communication with
students and the general public in Irish (e.g. bilingual telephone greetings,
etc.)
(e) communications with College be in Irish where feasible, in particular
following from the implementation of the Official Languages Act

The section in bold has the biggest and most immediate impact. Section 1.e is also an issue. Taking the wording as above facilitates anyone outside the Union but the union officer is expected to use Irish before English in all situations except where the other person does not wish to use Irish but only after the union officer has attempted to use Irish first...

Kevin_rc_ie

Well this comes across to me, and I'm just JOe BLoggs, that all they'll expect to have to do is start letters with A Chara (or whatever), say Dia Duit or something similar when they answer the phone, and when they start a speach say some other token tidbit in Irish.

Or will they be expected to be able to converse and intereact within Honours Leaving Cert. standard????

Let the political games begin.

Time Magazine

gom wrote:

This section is the particularly strong wording which I am suprised to see so comprehensively drawn up is quoted below.




The section in bold has the biggest and most immediate impact. Section 1.e is also an issue. Taking the wording as above facilitates anyone outside the Union but the union officer is expected to use Irish before English in all situations except where the other person does not wish to use Irish but only after the union officer has attempted to use Irish first...

Well I think you're missing that it will be ensured that officers will be encouraged to initiate communication as Gaeilge. And with regard this necessity to learn, "communications with College be in Irish where feasible". I don't think it's feasible to have a non-speaker (of any nationality) learn Irish.

It seems to me that it's just kinda taking the constitutional stance, that Irish is our first language and should be nurtured, but we all know we all speak English really.

On an aside, I dispute you 37% figure. Very few people learn Irish in adulthood so I don't think the age has much of an impact, but surely the (presumably) high-achieving Leaving Cert'er will have the cúpla focail? Taking 485 as the average points in the college it seems logical that a large percentage took honours Irish.

John

Angry Banana wrote:

On an aside, I dispute you 37% figure. Very few people learn Irish in adulthood so I don't think the age has much of an impact, but surely the (presumably) high-achieving Leaving Cert'er will have the cúpla focail? Taking 485 as the average points in the college it seems logical that a large percentage took honours Irish.

Logical eh? I got over 500 points in the leaving and I barely passed ordinary level Irish. I don't see how the number of points you get in the leaving has anything to do with your ability to speak Irish. You can't use the leaving to prove anything because it's a joke of a system.

Nietzschean

John2 wrote:

Logical eh? I got over 500 points in the leaving and I barely passed ordinary level Irish. I don't see how the number of points you get in the leaving has anything to do with your ability to speak Irish. You can't use the leaving to prove anything because it's a joke of a system.

likewise, well over 500 n just about did ordinary.....

Nietzschean

Angry Banana wrote:

It seems to me that it's just kinda taking the constitutional stance, that Irish is our first language and should be nurtured, but we all know we all speak English really.

Just because its in the constitution doesn't make it right.

It might be our first language cause its great for tourism or some people just like the idea, but realistically its just silly at this point. As a nation english is the main language of what 98% of people probally, it hardly seems even logical that we call irish our first language when clearly its just something forced on kids in school. It may have been viewed as some sort of anti-english thing back in the day and great as a result, but like it or not the english invading us constantly n making us learn english has done us alot of good financially speaking now...if irish was our main language moving about the world for jobs and so on would be a much tougher task. Globalisation has one, irish is dead, lets all just get used to it.

Kevin_rc_ie

I'm certain Ireland could have achieved bilinguism if it wasn't for some invading. I don't think we'd all be speaking irish and not english, look how well Nordic people are at english? Basically what BObo said was if Britain didn't invade us, we'd all be speaking Irish, and we wouldn't be speaking english at all. I don't think this would have happened.

Agent Smith

EduCat wrote:

I know plenty of non-Irish speakers who would be happy to agree with forms being available in both languages (or multiple languages - why not?), despite not speaking it themselves. Similarly, I've been doing my best to make progress on the use of sign language (ISL) this year, despite knowing virtually no sign.

Intresting Point...

i live Next door to a Irish Family, and they only speak Irish in there house,
there 2 children often get the same bus to school in the morning and the two of them talk to each other in irish.

i personally classed myself as an irish speaker on the least census, altho a poor one, i can genreally understand whats being said to me and can usual think of somthing thats like a decent reply.

the intraduction of irish into the student union is, imo, a just cause after all.

people bash irish, hate it with a vengance, but ask yourself this.

when your on holiday, and people ask you "what part of the United Kingdom you come from?" i'd bet 90% of people corect the person and tell them your from county whatever, which is a part of Ireland.

irish should be cherish, we are irish after all. (noted company pardoned)Seosamh

The Shol'va

Darth Bobo wrote:

likewise, well over 500 n just about did ordinary.....

Jumping on the 500+ and terrible at Irish bandwagon... strangely I use French a bit in my day to day life, but not Irish :P

Crash

Agent Smith - and why did you class yourself as an irish speaker? national pride or a "**** you Brits" emotional stance?


we speak english. fair enough, if that bothers you in the anti british sentimant way, just tell that that they're actually just talking an old germanic dialect next time someone brings up the point, then mention the war, i'm sure its gonna rile them up

Nietzschean

agent smith wrote:

when your on holiday, and people ask you "what part of the United Kingdom you come from?" i'd bet 90% of people corect the person and tell them your from county whatever, which is a part of Ireland.

irish should be cherish, we are irish after all. (noted company pardoned)Seosamh

Uh , just because we are irish doesn't mean we should be forcing a dead language on the youth of today. your associating pride in ones country with pride in a lanugage which imo is completely flawed.

Nietzschean

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

I'm certain Ireland could have achieved bilinguism if it wasn't for some invading. I don't think we'd all be speaking irish and not english, look how well Nordic people are at english? Basically what BObo said was if Britain didn't invade us, we'd all be speaking Irish, and we wouldn't be speaking english at all. I don't think this would have happened.

your certain we would have? we were a backwater country compared to any other western european one, there is no guarantee we would have achieved complete bilingualism by this day, sure eventually we would have but it would have severaly slowed our industrial growth and so on if we weren't a country full of people with english as our main language. And if u want to look at bilingual countries getting a hard time at the moment look at the ammount of moaning that goes on about the call centres in india, they all have perfect english but we still don't have a clue what they r saying.... We might have studied english in 2nd level or some equivlent but thats no guarantee of us having proficency to the level we enjoy now.....

Kevin_rc_ie

nah i stand by what i say.

luckat

I can't see what's wrong with the TCD move. They're just promoting Irish, not stopping anyone speaking English, French, Romanian, Mandarin, Shelta, or whatever you're having yourself. It's scarcely anything to get excited about.

I'd certainly agree that teaching Irish as a literary language is stupid and a failure; the only way to learn the language easily, well and pleasurably is by learning it through conversation.

magpie

Shouldn't Gaeilgoirs go to UCD instead?

Nietzschean

luckat wrote:

I can't see what's wrong with the TCD move. They're just promoting Irish, not stopping anyone speaking English, French, Romanian, Mandarin, Shelta, or whatever you're having yourself. It's scarcely anything to get excited about.

I'd certainly agree that teaching Irish as a literary language is stupid and a failure; the only way to learn the language easily, well and pleasurably is by learning it through conversation.

Well yes, i'd say forms n all that, but the comments about encouraging su people to speek irish , while not requiring them to do so does put pressure on foreign officers which does seem unfair.

Forms in both languages seems fine, every sign though i'd be think'n is rather excessive.......

Agent Smith

i'm pro Irish, simple as that, altho not my first language, i think it distinguses us more then any other way,shape or form.

Nietzschean

agent smith wrote:

i'm pro Irish, simple as that, altho not my first language, i think it distinguses us more then any other way,shape or form.

how about the fact we were born in ireland? that not enuf?

DrIndy

I'm certain Ireland could have achieved bilinguism if it wasn't for some invading. I don't think we'd all be speaking irish and not english, look how well Nordic people are at english? Basically what BObo said was if Britain didn't invade us, we'd all be speaking Irish, and we wouldn't be speaking english at all. I don't think this would have happened.

Scandinavian languages are under pressure too, but our languages are entrenched in our culture and heritage. Everyone speaks fluent english (or more correctly understands english) is because a lot of literature is in english (due to the costs of translating the whole lot). TV is also subtitled - the benefit is everyone can READ as well as speak english. The Netherlands is the same.

This is a unique situation and our languages will never be eroded as they are the only constitutional language. My national identity is extrinsically linked to my language and I would not be considered a true norwegian without speaking it with fluency.

Irish can gain greater use through people identifying themselves with their language. Forcing it on people does not do so. Irish people do not feel the same need as before the war of independence to identify with irish as we have gained our national identity without strong links with it.

There is a phenomenon of Gaelonazis which is extremely off putting. Such people look down on those who are not fluent in Irish and as a result, it is very discouraging for people rusty to even contemplate sharpening themselves up. If this is stamped out, then irish could grow better.

when your on holiday, and people ask you "what part of the United Kingdom you come from?" i'd bet 90% of people corect the person and tell them your from county whatever, which is a part of Ireland.

I ALWAYS correct people. I HATE that. (although my part scottish accent leads to confusion at times)

Kevin_rc_ie

Norway is a lot more insular than Sweden, Denmark and Finland.

DrIndy

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

Norway is a lot more insular than Sweden, Denmark and Finland.

I agree, but not as insular as Iceland or the Faroe Islands.

Its due to our culture and the fact that people lived in 3rd world conditions until the 1960's and the discovery of oil that rocketed us to the top 10 richest countries in the world.

People are afraid of outside interference (we were a part of benign dictatorship from sweden and denmark and a much more malignant one under Nazi Germany). I find it illogical, but people support that view. People also lived in largely isolated coastal communities for centuries...

In part, the reason norwegians continue whaling is because the rest of the world tells them to stop. Puzzling........

Kevin_rc_ie

There's a couple of Norweigies doing medicine in RCSI. I heard Norway, because they were rich, well offering full scholarships to their students to come to Ireland to study medicine. This true? I heard they stopped. But seeing that ur in 5 or 6th year maybe you got one. Did you?

DrIndy

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

There's a couple of Norweigies doing medicine in RCSI. I heard Norway, because they were rich, well offering full scholarships to their students to come to Ireland to study medicine. This true? I heard they stopped. But seeing that ur in 5 or 6th year maybe you got one. Did you?

They do offer "bought places" to norwegians in RCSI - this is because until 2000, there were not enough student places in Norway and so they bought non-EU spots in Britain and Ireland. In addition, more students pay fees to study in RCSI.

These scholarships still continue.......

I have dual citizenship and as an Irish applicant through CAO am not liable for fees anyway, so its a moot point.

Kevin_rc_ie

don't u need residency of 3 years out of the last 5 to qualify for that?

ApeXaviour

I'm not sure you do.. Kev you know ruairi, he's an irish citizen but never had residency in the republic of ireland before he came to college, yet he had no probs applying through the CAO with no fees.

Maybe that's a special case..

Kevin_rc_ie

he's from donegal? even if he's from derry its residency in the EU

ApeXaviour

Not donegal.. derry. Don't eu students still have to pay fees? I know it's not nearly the same amount as non-eu but I still thought they did.

Agent Smith

afaik if its there first time, then its the standard 758, if not then its 3508

Kappar

ApeXaviour wrote:

Not donegal.. derry. Don't eu students still have to pay fees? I know it's not nearly the same amount as non-eu but I still thought they did.

No I don;t think they have to pay fees, I think it's about non-discrimination on basis of nationality.

Agent Smith

jesus kapper, where have you been?

Kappar

agent smith wrote:

jesus kapper, where have you been?

Wher have I been? I have been here, Covertly watching and conspiring. I haven't posted a lot but have been reading.

Agent Smith

ahh a secret voyer....

Kappar

agent smith wrote:

ahh a secret voyer....

The best type

Kevin_rc_ie

Yeah, in terms of fees, all EU students are treated the same.

Agent Smith

dirty and smell?

DrIndy

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

Yeah, in terms of fees, all EU students are treated the same.

All EU students pay "EU Fees" in all universities in the EU. Because of the fee remission scheme brought in by Pat Rabbitte when Education minister during the rainbow coalition, that is exempt too.

You need to be "ordinarily resident" in the EU for 3 years before you get free fees, hence Irish citizens that live (for example) in the US do not qualify.

I went to secondary school in donegal.

We all pay the registration "charge" even though there is a fee remission scheme as a "charge" is not "fees" - its a fudge and hence the justifiable reaction to its recent hikes. Another form of stealth charges....

Time Magazine

Darth Bobo wrote:

how about the fact we were born in ireland? that not enuf?

Haha no, actually. Feckin' dirty referendum. I can't believe 80% of the electorate supported a motion that was based on a provisional ruling under the circumstances of no financial burden and with no figure for these actual "abuses".

</rant>

Time Magazine

John2 wrote:

Logical eh? I got over 500 points in the leaving and I barely passed ordinary level Irish. I don't see how the number of points you get in the leaving has anything to do with your ability to speak Irish. You can't use the leaving to prove anything because it's a joke of a system.

That's anectodal. I never said there was a direct correlation between how good you are at Irish and your Leaving Cert point. But Irish is mandatory and TCD has the highest points in the country. I think the link is pretty obvious.

I know people get 50,000 points and do 17 honours subjects and get a D2 in pass Irish but my point was that there is surely a higher proportion on people with the language in the "higher-achieving" (I know that sounds obnoxious but I couldn't come up with a euphemism) institutions than in the general population.

And I know the LC is a joke, but it's a joke that makes a lot of people learn Irish.

Nietzschean

umm surely by the quick straw poll there we just disproved that? irish isn't required for trinity anyway, its considered a foreign language.............

Time Magazine

Darth Bobo wrote:

Just because its in the constitution doesn't make it right.

It might be our first language cause its great for tourism or some people just like the idea, but realistically its just silly at this point. As a nation english is the main language of what 98% of people probally, it hardly seems even logical that we call irish our first language when clearly its just something forced on kids in school. It may have been viewed as some sort of anti-english thing back in the day and great as a result, but like it or not the english invading us constantly n making us learn english has done us alot of good financially speaking now...if irish was our main language moving about the world for jobs and so on would be a much tougher task. Globalisation has one, irish is dead, lets all just get used to it.

I don't think Dev had tourism in mind when he wrote the constitution. I don't agree with you that it's dead, in fact I resent that. Yes, I know that it's weak and that it could well die, but it's far from dead. It has a tv station, a radio station, at least 3 newspapers and loads of magazines. A large proportion of the nation still cherish it (although I accept that it's a minority and that the education system is ****e) and, as it stands, everyone has to come out of our education system with a few words.

It was seen as an anti-English thing in 1936, but so was Irish culture. Although you have the SF/IRA/Nazi scum that are still that (and worse), Irish culture has evolved. I know it's not completely revolutionised, but it is different. Take me, as an example. I despise SF and all that ****, but I'd consider myself a nationalist (in the literal sense and the political sense). I am kinda crap at Irish academically (delighted at a B3 in the LC) but I do occasionally speak Irish with my girlfriend and my sister goes by her Irish name. I'm by no means fanatical, but I don't want the language to die.

And yes, I agree having English as our main language is financially prudent. I'm not calling on us to all go back to the 1830's. Nor is this SU thing, by the looks of it. Globalization will never be beaten, but it's not going to wipe individual cultures aside.

Having Irish as our "first" language has no negative effects (unless you're against the spending on signs) whereas it does cherish the language, if only for those of us who want it.

Time Magazine

Darth Bobo wrote:

umm surely by the quick straw poll there we just disproved that? irish isn't required for trinity anyway, its considered a foreign language.............

You didn't disprove it, far from it. I guarantee if a survey is done of the Irish population of the college with the question "An dtuigeann tú an teanga seo?" you'll get a good 70% nodding. Or at least saying "'Sea"!

Nietzschean

Angry Banana wrote:

You didn't disprove it, far from it. I guarantee if a survey is done of the Irish population of the college with the question "An dtuigeann tú an teanga seo?" you'll get a good 70% nodding. Or at least saying "'Sea"!

and if we rephrased that into french we could get 50% knowing what it ment. and no ones forced to learn that.

Nietzschean

Angry Banana wrote:

It has a tv station, a radio station, at least 3 newspapers and loads of magazines.

And ahem how many of these would exist without state funding? another question i might pose except for the fact tg4 show's the best films out of our terrestial tv stations(in english n all..)

A large proportion of the nation still cherish it (although I accept that it's a minority and that the education system is ****e) and, as it stands, everyone has to come out of our education system with a few words.

so you accept then thats its a minority imposing its view on the majority? hardly seems fair in a demoracy...

Take me, as an example. I despise SF and all that ****,

SF are the politcal arm of a well terrorist faction, would hardly be classed as nationalism if u did support them...

but I'd consider myself a nationalist (in the literal sense and the political sense). I am kinda crap at Irish academically (delighted at a B3 in the LC) but I do occasionally speak Irish with my girlfriend and my sister goes by her Irish name. I'm by no means fanatical, but I don't want the language to die.

you nearly sound like an american tourist talking about their irish roots, its just not functional anymore, should be removed from main stream education at the very least and left as something optional like latin....

Globalization will never be beaten, but it's not going to wipe individual cultures aside.

it really only has had 15 - 20 years of proper jobbie on the cultures of different countries, give it time.....

Having Irish as our "first" language has no negative effects

Umm apart from just seeming blatantly illogcal, be no different than us saying we'll have russian as our first language as far as i'm concerned. Its not so it shouldn't be there, how about some other title than first? because its not that... national/historiacal or something..

(unless you're against the spending on signs)

Now that u mention it i am, waste of money to see it on all these new roads, millions upon millions poured down the drain.

whereas it does cherish the language, if only for those of us who want it.

good thing its a democracy then, should be able to get rid of it all, u can cherish it in the old fashioned way, i dunno read a book in irish? watch some buli buli re-runs? but no point in sucking up millions of the budget.

Time Magazine

We're not in France. Far more people in this country have a deep respect for Irish than French.

And French is in not under threat. Irish is. And we all love supporting the underdog .

Nietzschean

Angry Banana wrote:

We're not in France. Far more people in this country have a deep respect for Irish than French.

And French is in not under threat. Irish is. And we all love supporting the underdog .

your point with that was though if i recall that 70% of people would understand it? after 10 years of compulsary education in a subject one would hope that most people would have picked up something so basic. Where as i was pointing out that of there own accord people are more interested to go learn french. Don't think its got alot to do with respect now in fairness, we're forced to learn one and yet only a margnially higher % of the population would actually understand that phrase by your recon'n for irish and mine for french.

Agent Smith

Angry Banana wrote:

And we all love supporting the underdog .

because its the underdog that needs you...

Crash

G'wan Ireland!

combs

To the original poster: If you want to do something useful to promote Irish get it added to Babelfish or set up your own Babelfish-style translation service. And, get this, it has to be free to use. None of that profiteering by the 'promotion' of the Irish language like what goes on in the Gaeltacht.