Put up or shut up

Villain

Mr McDowell has said this evening that he believed Leading members of the IRA were household names who appeared on television.

So Minister it's time you put up or shut up, you are the Minister for Justice so lets have these people arrested for been members of the IRA.

Gerry Adams this evening challenged Bertie Ahern to have him or arrested for conspiring to the theft of the Northern Bank robbery or withdraw his accusation that the leaders of SF knew about the bank robbery.

So come on Bertie and Michael lets see if your willing to put your evidence to the test of our justice system, otherwise withdraw your accusations.

Cork

The Taoiseach of this country has already had demands from particuler individuals with regard to the early release of Gerry McCabes killers.

I think An Taoiseach should indeed name these individuals and the nature of demands made.

We all know the record of SF/IRA over 35 years. Let SF/IRA let us know the exact connection between these "2 organisations".

To date, SF has not clarified this.

Speaking on RTÉ radio's 'This Week' programme, Ms Harney said: "Some of the Oireachtas members, I understand, sit on the army council."

When asked what members she was referring to, she replied: "I understand Deputy Ferris may well be a member of the army council, but that's a question you should put to him."

But let SF and their buddies let us know the membership of the army council over the last 35 years and stop trying to play the victim.

People are begining to see thru their little act.

A Dub in Glasgo

They certainly will not put up and they certainly will not shut up. Apparantly, it is the way of democracy.

solas

looks like they are playing SF at their own game, interesting story developing.

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

They certainly will not put up and they certainly will not shut up. Apparantly, it is the way of democracy.

Better democracy than having a ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other.

It is about time the IRA put up their weapons and decommissioned.

But they seem for some reason to be opposed to a no criminality clause.

But Bertie should name members of the IRA army council. I think people have a right to know.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

They certainly will not put up and they certainly will not shut up. Apparantly, it is the way of democracy.

Yeah, and Sinn Fein/IRAs way of democracy is either to shoot up / blow up, or else to have the threat to shoot up / blow up.

Nuttzz

Bertie or McDowell cant order the arrest of anyone, arrests are operational matters for the police forces, our government ministers dont order arrests.

A Dub in Glasgo

But they can publically declare who is on the Army Council of an illegal group without offering any evidence or show that they have notified the proper authorities

true

In Ed Moloneys book on the IRA it stated Adams and Mitch. were on the army council.
Did they sue? No.

Who was brought over for secret peace talks to London in the seventies? Adams. Who was leader of the boys ( IRA) in Long Kesh in the early seventies .... guess who.

Why does Adams not sue Bertie or Blair or IMC now? He knows he is guilty. It was almost laughable to see his performance this evening.

gurramok

A book does not convict.
He should be arrested, put on trial and convicted.
Why has this not happened ?

Zombrex

Bertie has always known who was on the IRA army councel, the army give him an intelligence report on the IRA twice a year detailing the leader ship of the IRA. Bertie is pissed off now, and rightly so, because the IRA and Sinn Fein are lying in public about not knowing anything about the robbery, when it is clear to Bertie and the government that they did know about it. The intelligence services know exactly what goes on. They aren't stupid. Naturally this is pissing of Bertie as it would piss of any loyal Irish man. So do you blame him for hinting that he knows exactly the game Sinn Fein are playing. Adams knows too well that he won't be arrested, they would never get anything to stick in court.

I have no idea why people are taking Sinn Feins side in this, it is not like they are a honourable group of fellas. I suppose the same could be said for FF, but by God I will believe my own government, and my own army and intelligence services over the word of a group who can't even bring themselves to say that killing Guards is a crime.

Rant over ....

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Villain

So the Minister of Justice can't present the Garda commisioner with a book evidence on the leadership of the IRA, and ask him to arrest them on this evidence, yea right.

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

Oh and the last time I looked Ed Moloney wasn't a Judge.

Nuttzz

irish1 wrote:

So the Minister of Justice can't present the Garda commisioner with a book evidence on the leadership of the IRA, and ask him to arrest them on this evidence, yea right.

Of course he cant, there is seperation between the government and the legal system otherwise it becomes a totalitarian state, would you like to see that?

Irish1 if someone wrote in a book that you were on the IRA army council when you were not would you not sue the author, if gerry and martin arent on the council why dont they do the same?

Johnny_the_fox

irish1 wrote:

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

two points of interest... from both sides..

1. there is no evidence of the IRA's 3 Acts of decommission.. but we have to trust de Chastelain... and an ira statement... (the unionists and many others dont believe)

2. there is no evidence that the IRA and SF are linked and did the bank robbery.. but we have to trust IMC, PSNI/Gardai and both governments... (the hardline republicans and many others dont believe)

so what is left for the normal everyday people in the north.. ?? no assembly = water fees coming, increase of rates, increase of student fees... and lots more.

monument

irish1 wrote:

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

There’s no need for that kind of nonsense when you have your very own kangaroo court.

Or did you mean not even in our kangaroo court?

sceptre

monument wrote:

There’s no need for that kind of nonsense when you have your very own kangaroo court.

Or did you mean not even in our kangaroo court?

"Our kangaroo court" (assuming you're referring to the SCC) would be considered to be part of "any court in this country". I think it's safe to assume that irish1 meant that.

Zombrex

irish1 wrote:

So the Minister of Justice can't present the Garda commisioner with a book evidence on the leadership of the IRA, and ask him to arrest them on this evidence, yea right.

They don't have any evidence that would stand up in any court in this country.

Oh and the last time I looked Ed Moloney wasn't a Judge.

Last time I looked the government weren't attempting to imprision or charge any member of SF with a crime. SF are the ones calling for evidence that would "stand up in court", which in my opinion only makes them look even more guilty and ridiculous.

What the government know is that the IRA carried out the robbery, and they know that leading member of Sinn Fein are in the IRA. But then again, most of N.I know this. It is not like it was much of a shock to anyone.

BuffyBot

There’s no need for that kind of nonsense when you have your very own kangaroo court.

Well now, seem as you mention kangaroo courts..

Victor

I wonder how Gerry **knows** the IRA wasn't involved.

BuffyBot wrote:

Well now, seem as you mention kangaroo courts..

Now, now. Gerry is **not** trying to get Bertie to reveal his hand so any potential Garda / Army source is revealed

billy the squid

Can members of the Oireacteas submit information to the Director of Public prosecutions.

and is hinting at who is and who is not on the army council through the media denying these people a fair trial should these same individuals be brought before the courts.

Victor

billy the squid wrote:

Can members of the Oireacteas submit information to the Director of Public prosecutions.

Anyone can submit, accepting it or using it is another matter.

and is hinting at who is and who is not on the army council through the media denying these people a fair trial should these same individuals be brought before the courts.

Theres a certain "dogs on the street" element to this.

Of course, is there the will, need or want to convict anyone of PIRA membership (whatever avout activities)?

arcadegame2004

irish1 wrote:

Mr McDowell has said this evening that he believed Leading members of the IRA were household names who appeared on television.

So Minister it's time you put up or shut up, you are the Minister for Justice so lets have these people arrested for been members of the IRA.

Gerry Adams this evening challenged Bertie Ahern to have him or arrested for conspiring to the theft of the Northern Bank robbery or withdraw his accusation that the leaders of SF knew about the bank robbery.

So come on Bertie and Michael lets see if your willing to put your evidence to the test of our justice system, otherwise withdraw your accusations.

I personally do not know sure whether the IRA had a hand in the Northern Bank robbery or not. I think it is the most likely probability, but I also feel that the fact that the hullabaloo over the supposed IRA spyring a few years ago led to a case which immediately collapsed when it came to court, together with the PSNI admission that they didn't find anything incriminating at the searches yesterday (or whenever they were at Beragh in Co.Tyrone etc.), together with the continued presence of hardline Unionists in the PSNI should give us some pause for thought. I would have thought that not coming from NI, Hugh Orde wouldn't come with the emotional and political backage that past Unionist RUC Chief Constables did. But I am uncertain.

However, what is not in doubt (except by the most gullable of SF fans) is that the IRA (and Loyalists) have continued their despicable punishment-beatings including kneecaping teenagers and people they accuse of being drug-dealers - and just innocent people whose only crime is criticising or falling out of favour with IRA/SF personalities. This IS criminality, whatever lingo SF comes up with the deny this or skirt around it. The denial by Mitchell McLaughlin and Mary Lou McDonald that the murder of Jean McConville was a crime is among the most outrageous and scandalous statements I have ever heard from Irish politicians - and THAT's saying something.

SF demand "evidence" be produced of the IRA's guilt. Yet they must surely know that if that was done, then a future court case could be stopped by a judge who would claim that the case had been "prejudiced" by the publicity surrounding evidence. Also, releasing it could put the lives in informants in danger (a possible reason why the IRA wants the evidence to be revealed). So it is ludicrous to demand detailed evidence to be released. Even so, the British Government should give some broad hints about the nature of the evidence, in so far as is compatible with protecting intelligence sources.

In most democracies, the executive does not order the arrest of persons. Remember that is what went on in Nazi Germany/Fascist Italy/Communist countries. That is for the police to do. I don't doubt that there is a party political element in the criticism of SF, but that doesn't mean the substance of the allegations are untrue.

Villain

So if the Minister For Justice has information that could lead to an arrest he shouldn't give it to the Gardai so THEY can decide whether or not to arrest???

Thats basically what your saying, If I have evidence that showed who were the leaders of an ILLEGAL organisation I would feel obliged to go to the Gardai, I accept it is up to them to decide whether or not to act on that info.

But if McDowell and Berite have the evidence they claim to have they should present it to the Gardai, and let them decide whether or not to act on it.

Sparks

irish1 wrote:

But if McDowell and Berite have the evidence they claim to have they should present it to the Gardai, and let them decide whether or not to act on it.

That's informing against them, not arresting them or directing the Gardai to arrest them. The difference being that it's the Gardai and the DPP who decide if a case is to be brought, thus ensuring the seperation of powers...
(That's rather a basic thing to have to rehash, btw).

Villain

Sparks wrote:

That's informing against them, not arresting them or directing the Gardai to arrest them. The difference being that it's the Gardai and the DPP who decide if a case is to be brought, thus ensuring the seperation of powers...
(That's rather a basic thing to have to rehash, btw).

So you do you believe that Bertie and McDowell should present the evidence they have that shows the leadership of the IRA had prior knowledge of the Northern Bank Roberry to the Gardai. Then the Gardai can decide whether they is enough evidence to arrest Gerry and other members of the leadership with Conspiring to robbery.

Sparks

irish1 wrote:

So you do you believe that Bertie and McDowell should present the evidence they have that shows the leadership of the IRA had prior knowledge of the Northern Bank Roberry to the Gardai. Then the Gardai can decide whether they is enough evidence to arrest Gerry and other members of the leadership with Conspiring to robbery.

Well, it boils down to one question: do you want the peace process to continue?
If yes, then no, they shouldn't. If no, then yes they should - because you arrest McGuinness and Adams and throw them in jail, and before the week's out, you'll have armed thugs terrorising and bombing people all over the island and probably the mainland UK inside a month. It's blackmail of a sort, but pragmatically if you want to avoid bloodshed, you can't lock them up.

And, much as I'd like to see it done, I'd rather not see more dissappeared being added to the list and more people up there being shot and blown to small pieces, so I'd have to say no, they shouldn't request the Gardai and DPP investigate further. I'm saying it through gritted teeth, mind.

Villain

Sparks wrote:

Well, it boils down to one question: do you want the peace process to continue?
If yes, then no, they shouldn't. If no, then yes they should - because you arrest McGuinness and Adams and throw them in jail, and before the week's out, you'll have armed thugs terrorising and bombing people all over the island and probably the mainland UK inside a month. It's blackmail of a sort, but pragmatically if you want to avoid bloodshed, you can't lock them up.

And, much as I'd like to see it done, I'd rather not see more dissappeared being added to the list and more people up there being shot and blown to small pieces, so I'd have to say no, they shouldn't request the Gardai and DPP investigate further. I'm saying it through gritted teeth, mind.

So would you not then also agree that Bertie and McDowell should stop accusing these men of such on the national airways??

irish1

irish1 wrote:

So would you not then also agree that Bertie and McDowell should stop accusing these men of such on the national airways??

Reading Spark's post,I dont even see why you would ask him such a question.

Sparks has said he believes if Republican leaders were locked up... violence aka bombing and shooting by a minority would break out again.
He believes Ahern and McDowell believe likewise.

Sparks in common with most of our politicians who represent most of our people is in effect giving a damning indictment here on what they see as blackmail.

The only reason why Ahern is accusing the Republican leaders of duplicity etc in public now is that he's quite visibly disgusted at being in his view taken for a fool during the pre Xmas negotiations by the Republican leadership.

It would appear in the interests of pragmatism and the hope of a final settlement (including the end of criminality from "Republicans") that he gave the republican leadership a long string prior to this with respect to smaller outbreaks of criminality and they've broken it in his eyes with the 26 million pound robbery.

As a contributer to Vincent Brownes programme on Radio one said last night when asked why he thought Adams and McGuinnes aren't sue-ing for slander.. " it's because to have a reasonable chance of being sucessfull the allegations have to be untrue..."

Stabshauptmann

true wrote:

In Ed Moloneys book on the IRA it stated Adams and Mitch. were on the army council.

true wrote:

I would not believe everything in "A secret history of the IRA".

HERE]

HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY *

Your double standards true is one of your biggest failings and is why reasonable debate with you is so fruitless.

Who was leader of the boys ( IRA) in Long Kesh in the early seventies .... guess who.

You might want to read a secret history of the IRA rather than repeat what you think is in it. Adams was not OC in Long Kesh, at the time he was out of favour with the leadership

Why does Adams not sue Bertie or Blair or IMC now? He knows he is guilty. It was almost laughable to see his performance this evening.

HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY * HYPOCRACY *

I offered the same argument to you re: why didn’t the British government or Security forces or even the relatives of Jean McConville sue Ed Moloney for what he wrote in his book.

I’m not going to go down that road again with what happened to Jean McConville, you, oscar bravo and I discussed it as far as we could but I think it is ridiculous that you now offer the EXACT same logic as you rejected now that it supports your views.

Zombrex

irish1 wrote:

So you do you believe that Bertie and McDowell should present the evidence they have that shows the leadership of the IRA had prior knowledge of the Northern Bank Roberry to the Gardai. Then the Gardai can decide whether they is enough evidence to arrest Gerry and other members of the leadership with Conspiring to robbery.

Are you serious?

The information Bertie gets about the IRA is from military intelligence... yeah it would be a really good idea for that network of national security to be dragged through the courts trying to convict Gerry Adams of membership, something Bertie has probably known all along.

As I have said before the only people who seem to want Gerry Adams arrested are Sinn Fein. Bertie doesnt need or want to have Adams arrested. He just wants SF to stop lying about the bank robbery.