EU set to lift China arms embargo

Victor

true wrote:

Most Iraquis now are glad that America ridded Iraq of Saddam - witness the recent elections. At least the government in Iraq now does not go about torturing and murdering its opponents. Its a start.

Nope, they leave that to the Americans and the contractors.

sovtek

Victor wrote:

Nope, they leave that to the Americans and the contractors.

Actually I think Alawi did a few summary executions himself just after being handed the remote a few months back.

Err0r

Poker_Peter wrote:

If a programmed western american view on china means despising their dictatorship, which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence, and for such outrageous acts such as discussing democracy on the Internet, then I think that view of China is one I'd rather continue to espouse and hold, thank you very much.

You remind me of Neville Chamberlain and Daladier in the 1930's with respect to Hitler. China is definitely a potential threat and has certainly NOT been a force for human rights, democracy or good generally in the world since the Communists came to power in 1949. Since then, they have concentrated on torturing and massacring their people, and proping up equally or even more evil regimes in countries like North Korea and Burma - a regime which massacred thousands of students protesting in favour of their 80% vote for Aung San Syu Syi in 1988. Oh and something about the massacre of 3,600 pro-democracy student demonstrators in Tiananamen aswell. But hey, who cares when there's so much money to be made selling them military technology so they kill even more helpless civilians hey?

These might be policies that you admire, in which case I am glad you are not in charge of this country!

I am certainly not absolving the US from responsibility for all the terrible mistakes they have made but compared to China they are saints. Like Ionapaul, I believe that it is imperative for the security of Western democratic societies and the advancement of human rights and democracy generally that global military dominance rest with the Western hemisphere of countries. History has taught us that we pay dear if we delude ourselves with the thought that we can tame brutal regimes with closer ties and soft words.

1. Since then, they have concentrated on torturing and massacring their people. I thought they were concentrating on a stable economic development?

2. "which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence" woo-wee. You say Tibetans would live better seperated from China? Then why does Dalai Lama say something else?

3. "or even more evil regimes in countries like North Korea and Burma", hilarious, i bet satan is sitting with their leaders patting them on the backs
what makes a regime "evil"?

4. Like to look back into the past?
a) When USA wanted freedom UK attacked. Taiwan wants freedom, has China attacked?
b) What about the retired USA war veterans demanding the money the US gov. promised them, what happened? The tanks came out!
c) All countries have skeletons in their closets, I can just name a few: Sweden said to be neutral during WII but actually supporting the Nazi's, Germany "electing" a bad chairman, UK colonizing the whole world *cough* (go democracy!), The Nanking Massacre

As said, no country is perfect and China are definately no saints! But bear in mind that China is undergoing huge development and thats what the state focuses on, not some personal intrest.

Agreeing with Hobbes, if you do not like a regime, boycott their goods! If you are using stuff made in China, I suggest that you really STFU in the future. You can not "gain" from both sides.

BTW, visit China. I suppose that the information you have read are not from a Chinese source. Go to China and ask them what they think of the "terrible" regime. I'm sure you will learn something. If not, then you must be :eek:

Also, enough with the conspiracy theories! I've lived in China for 3 months and did not get shot by some rooftop sniper, or taken by the police, or anything stupid u might think of.

Err0r

Poker_Peter wrote:

Well I definitely wouldn't sell them weapons. I cannot for the life of me see how it benefits us or them to sell them Western weapons. It will help them massacre thousands more would-be Tianamen pro-democracy activists though and to destroy Taiwan's right to democracy and a society in which criticising the government doesn't mean an express ticket to a torture chamber or a firing squad.

They are continuing to occupy Tibet and to massacre its people. They refuse to let the media in and you and I know perfectly well what we would suspect if the British were refusing to allow outside and Southern Irish media into NI for decades like China has done with Tibet. It is like Russia with Chechnya. What are they hiding? As a former colony ourselves we should be unsparing and unrelenting in condemning colonial oppression.

They are constantly threatening to invade Taiwan. I am sure Taiwanese people would support reunification with China but only in the context of democracy. It is crazy to expect them to hand over their right to elect their government in favour of a dictatorship in which they have no say who governs them, and in which criticism of the government means torture, rape, or death.

The changes in China you are referring to are economic. They are not matched in the political field. How can the EU justify imposing sanctions on some dictatorships but not others?

These references to "how far China has come" are very similar to the references to "how far SF/IRA has come...etc. not killing people now just kneecapping them...well done lads". The leaders of the Beijing regime are like Adams and McGuinness, promising improvements at some unspecified date, then we find out their still up to their old tricks. I say call a spade a spade, instead of congratulating someone for being a little less criminal.

If buying weapons is to massacre people. The "evil" regime of China would just have killed them cheaply, with the cheapest rifles or something. Why would a regime buy expensive weapons to kill some people when they can do it at a much lower price. Also, it would be very bad for a nations PR (public rating) to do so.
Seeing that the US is starting wars here and there, my guess is that China wants to be well armed??
But I think their main point is that every country should be treated equally.

elvis2002

I agree go to China! Its a brilliant place. You wont get shot going down the streets. I dont understand why so many of you think China is a war zone and unsafe. Chinese people believe that Ireland is a warzone so i guess it swings both ways. Sometimes I wonder why people are so biggoted.

"China is definitely a potential threat" hahahahhahahha. This statement doesnt make any sense what so ever.

Roisin Dubh

If buying weapons is to massacre people. The "evil" regime of China would just have killed them cheaply, with the cheapest rifles or something. Why would a regime buy expensive weapons to kill some people when they can do it at a much lower price. Also, it would be very bad for a nations PR (public rating) to do so.Seeing that the US is starting wars here and there, my guess is that China wants to be well armed??
But I think their main point is that every country should be treated equally.

Well first of all as a nuclear powered nation they is zero % chance of the US invading them. No nuclear armed country has ever been invaded by a foreign government.

China is constantly threatening to invade Taiwan to reunite it "with the motherland etc." Traditionally Taiwan was able to deter Beijing from invading with a superior airforce, but if China is able to modernise its army with Western built weapons, then the balance will shift further towards Beijing, as it has been recently.

Also, the Taiwan Relations Act in the US requires the US to defend Taiwan. So weapons sold by the EU could theoretically end up being used against the US in a war over whether Taiwan should be democratic or communist. It's clear which side you would be on :rolleyes:

Bash the US all you like but sometimes war is justified and while I have mixed feelings on Iraq, at least the US isn't incorporating Iraq as the 51st state, unlike Chinese incorporation of oppressed and invaded Tibet.

You say Tibetans would live better seperated from China? Then why does Dalai Lama say something else?

He hopes to lessen repression by the Chinese against Tibetans by turning down the volume.

When USA wanted freedom UK attacked. Taiwan wants freedom, has China attacked?

They have 800 missiles aimed at Taiwan. They are always ranting about invading and I feel that they eventually will, and that helping the Commies modernise their army will bring forward that day. They may take a chance that the US won't intervene in that event.

The EU could face economic sanctions from the US in the event of lifting the arms embargo.

As said, no country is perfect and China are definately no saints! But bear in mind that China is undergoing huge development and thats what the state focuses on, not some personal intrest.

Burma would also be undergoing "huge" economic development if the West chose to end sanctions on its regime. Are you advocating we do that? You really don't give a damn about human-rights do you?

Agreeing with Hobbes, if you do not like a regime, boycott their goods!

First thing you've said today I agree with.

Err0r

Well first of all as a nuclear powered nation they is zero % chance of the US invading them. No nuclear armed country has ever been invaded by a foreign government.

China is constantly threatening to invade Taiwan to reunite it "with the motherland etc." Traditionally Taiwan was able to deter Beijing from invading with a superior airforce, but if China is able to modernise its army with Western built weapons, then the balance will shift further towards Beijing, as it has been recently.

Also, the Taiwan Relations Act in the US requires the US to defend Taiwan. So weapons sold by the EU could theoretically end up being used against the US in a war over whether Taiwan should be democratic or communist. It's clear which side you would be on :rolleyes:

If theres a 0% change of China getting invaded, then why are you fearing a WIII?

Bash the US all you like but sometimes war is justified and while I have mixed feelings on Iraq, at least the US isn't incorporating Iraq as the 51st state, unlike Chinese incorporation of oppressed and invaded Tibet.

Why should US incorporate Iraq as the 51st state, and would they really want to? I not really sure about the Tibet issue, but I thought it had always been a part of China (as there are over 50 minority groups in China).

He hopes to lessen repression by the Chinese against Tibetans by turning down the volume.

oh, is that so. what about the millions the evil regime is pouring into tibet, just for show? some places in tibet are actually starting to look ok (http://images.google.se/images?q=lhasa&hl=sv&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi). also you must know that tibet has a very high amount of monks, i think it was 60% of the male population, well they sure do much getting tibet out of poverty.

They have 800 missiles aimed at Taiwan. They are always ranting about invading and I feel that they eventually will, and that helping the Commies modernise their army will bring forward that day. They may take a chance that the US won't intervene in that event.

Yup, it's a two-way thing

The EU could face economic sanctions from the US in the event of lifting the arms embargo.

Yes, it's not a easy decision for the EU. But if the US sets up sanctions just because of that, it will be clear that the US are just being childish again.

Burma would also be undergoing "huge" economic development if the West chose to end sanctions on its regime. Are you advocating we do that? You really don't give a damn about human-rights do you?

Umm, I didn't talk about human rights. This is a political forum, not an activist forum. If you really care about human rights so much, then why do you only clank down on China ("It's clear which side you are be on" :rolleyes: )?

I suggest that you read this (and as I said, no country is perfect). Yes, China might be the worst of these 3... but is under development... new laws being made, etc, etc, etc (you wouldnt care)
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/usa-summary-eng
http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/Irl-summary-eng

Btw, I answered (or at least tryed) all your comments, but you only chose my easy ones.

Roisin Dubh

I not really sure about the Tibet issue, but I thought it had always been a part of China (as there are over 50 minority groups in China).

That's like saying that Ireland was always part of Britain bearing in mind so many ethnic groups in Britain. Nonsense. I understand Tibet was ruled by China since the 1300's until 1912 - when Tibet threw out Chinese troops - after which Chinese troops returned in 1949 and forced the Dali Llama to sign a pact called the Thirteen Point Plan habding control of Tibet to China, which is a shorter period than since 1169 in Ireland's case, yet we are not arguing that we should rightfully be ruled over by China. Or are you?

No-one should be forced under the thumb of a brutal dictatorship, nor should we trust statistics from China about Tibet. The reason China is as you put it "throwing millions into Tibet" is colonisation. They are building a railway to Tibet to increase the flood of Chinese colonists into Tibet. Tibetans are now a minority in Tibet, and after taking over Tibet in 1949, China redrew its border to incorporate 70% of original Tibet into neighbouring Chinese provinces,

Also:http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/050305094927.gtzvemjq

Lawmakers cite possible US trade retaliation if EU lifts China arms embargo

The United States is worried about a European-supplied Chinese military buildup, and Congress has made it clear it could retaliate with trade restrictions if Europe lifts its arms embargo on China.

"I suspect there would be prohibition on a great number of technical skills and materials or products available to Europeans. It could change very much some multinational business plans," said Richard Lugar, chairman of the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.

What worries Americans "is not just a concern about China being a competitor, it's a concern about China building up arms, trying to intimidate Taiwan," Senator George Allen said after President George W. Bush debriefed lawmakers Tuesday about his European trip.

"And we know that the People's Republic of China are proliferators of arms, as are the North Koreans," Allen said.

Allen suggested joint NATO military exercises could come up for reconsideration.

The House of Representatives adopted a resolution a month ago calling on Europe not to lift the embargo. The resolution passed by a vote of 411 to three.

A similar text has been presented in the upper chamber of Congress by a dozen influential senators from both parties. "There is a good possibility that the Senate will pass a similar resolution," a spokesman for Senator Gordon Smith said Friday.

The embargo on arms sales to China was instigated after the bloody repression of a pro-democracy movement in early 1989, which killed hundreds and possibly thousands.

But during their summit in Brussels on December 17 EU leaders stated their willingness to lift the embargo and said a decision to do so could come before the end of June.

Bush communicated his displeasure with the plan during his European trip and implicitly charged US lawmakers with finding a way to dissuade the Europeans.

"If in fact they actually put in place enforceable -- enforceable -- rules, relative to what's able to be exported... and if in fact they're clear in what they're talking about, theoretically it's possible" that Congress would accept a lifting of the arms embargo, top Democratic Senator Joseph Biden said.

But "based on what the Europeans are talking about, generally, it's a non-starter with the Congress," he added.

Smith's spokesman said that since the start of the attempt to put together a resolution on the EU and China, US lawmakers have increased their contacts with European elected officials, notably French and German, to persuade them not to lift the embargo.

The issue carries more significance for transatlantic relations than for Sino-American ties, an aid to Biden said.

"It's more a transatlantic issue," said Biden, adding that the Senate was not likely to take concrete measures until the EU lifts the embargo.

Hobbes

Poker_Peter wrote:

If a programmed western american view on china means despising their dictatorship, which executes people for such horrendous crimes as verbally supporting Tibetan independence

Linkage?

Sand wrote:

China has an exspansionist agenda regarding Taiwan at the very least,

At one point in time Taiwan was part of China, they had to give it up as part of the Sino-Japanese war. There have also been found on the island artifacts from the three kingdoms which would suggest that the Chinese were there long before the Dutch got there.

But even so it is amazing how people go on about how China is planning to take Taiwan but the rest of the world is happy to let them.. Yes you heard me. Don't believe me? There is a law in China that you cannot write "Taiwan" as a country or you can go to jail/face fine or loose import/export license in China.

Find me a company/country that doesn't comply to this. (Clue: US actually complies to this).

People go on about the censorship in China as well.. well wake up call a lot of the technology used to censor its people is supplied by the west.

Likewise with Tibet. At one time it was part of China (which was agreed by various other countries).

Anyway it is very unlikely that China would be given an embargo as the rest of the world is so dependant on its exports. It certainly would never be attacked.

It is also Bushes regime that have stated that Taiwan is and has always been part of China (Powells speech in 2004).

Roisin Dubh

At one point in time Taiwan was part of China, they had to give it up as part of the Sino-Japanese war. There have also been found on the island artifacts from the three kingdoms which would suggest that the Chinese were there long before the Dutch got there.

Yes they lost it to Japan then got it back. Then it was held by the Chinese Nationalists in the civil war with the Communists. Taiwan has since flowered into what China should be, a multiparty democracy with all the rights we associate with a Western democracy, and tons richer than China in terms of what people there on average, are earning.

But even so it is amazing how people go on about how China is planning to take Taiwan but the rest of the world is happy to let them.. Yes you heard me. Don't believe me? There is a law in China that you cannot write "Taiwan" as a country or you can go to jail/face fine or loose import/export license in China.

Find me a company/country that doesn't comply to this. (Clue: US actually complies to this).

The US position is that Taiwan is part of China but should not be forced to join China by military means, ie only peaceful means should be used.

People go on about the censorship in China as well.. well wake up call a lot of the technology used to censor its people is supplied by the west.

Likewise with Tibet. At one time it was part of China (which was agreed by various other countries).

Only in the same sense that Ireland was once considered part of Britain. Do you think it was part of Britain?

Anyway it is very unlikely that China would be given an embargo as the rest of the world is so dependant on its exports. It certainly would never be attacked.

It is also Bushes regime that have stated that Taiwan is and has always been part of China (Powells speech in 2004).

Actually the value of US trade with Ireland is 3 times than between the US and China. Ireland exports just 2% of its exports to China. But if we continue the way we are going we are going to create a dependence on China economically that will make it harder for us to criticise them in future. I don't agree with us doing that.

I am convinced that trade and human rights should be linked.