SF/IRA go too far?

Sand

I heard about the stabbing of man in Belfast 2 weeks ago, and gave it no mind as the police said it wasnt carried out by a terrorist group with some objective in mind. I then heard on the Last Word today an interview with Susan Breen, a reporter and Albert McGuiness (sp?) of the SDLP where the sinister nature of the murder became apparent.

What appears to have happend is that the local SF/IRA unit, led by an extremely senior IRA commander ( according to both Breen and McGuiness the IRA men were also senior SF political activists and regularly visit SF HQ as part of their "day job", and still do even after the murder) cut Brendan Devines throat in a bar, and then pursued them onto the street where they beat, stabbed and stamped McCartney to death and continued their assault on Devine. They left them to die on the street, and then returned to the pub where they launched a full scale coverup.

The coverup is still apparently continuing. McCartneys family have been amazingly brave - though I can think of one SF/IRA supporter who would laugh at the idea that they were brave - and have accused the SF/IRA unit of the murder. Devine who survived, barely, has said he will testify - the SF/IRA units identities are already know, one is in Dublin. Both families *were* solidly Sinn Fein voters. The community has rallied to them, and against SF/IRA. According to the last word interview, SF/IRA has refused to co-operate with the police investigation ( like Omagh ) and instead has advised people to go to a solicitor or a priest with evidence regarding the murder! This despite the stated wish of the families that people co-operate with the police.

Apparently the families have put up posters looking for statements, but were told by a local community center ( unnamed in the interview) that they wouldnt be allowed to put them up as they contained the PNSI insignia and thus was offensive! Even Republicans are sickened by the SF/IRA attitude in this case of clear criminality - no one after all is accusing the SF/IRA high command of directing the murder, but rather of covering for the killers and there is no indication of Devine or McCartney being drug dealers or whatever, though apparently the SF/IRA propaganda machine is already at work - and theres half a chance that this could be very damaging to SF/IRAs electoral campaign, especially with the SDLP campaigning on a "nationalism that favours law and order" approach.

[Prediction]A poster on an internet had this to say "Clearly this is a dirty trick by the families who fear our electoral mandate"! Another said " Who cares! They got my pavements fixed so Im happy and thats all that matters" A third claimed "Clearly this was wrong and regrettable, but I dont want to get stuck in the politics of condemnation - lets try and work past this to a point where these non-crimes no longer happen" Another said " Crinimals in SF/IRA? Thats unpossible!" [/Prediction]

mycroft

I hate agreeing with Sands (sorry mate) but he's right here;

The family have been very brave the culprits are known to everyone and the 70 odd witnesses in the pub all saw "nothing" the family even stuck the "please help with the investigation" leaflet through one of the suspects letterboxs.

Businesses in the area have stuck up PSNI can you help with the investigation and the mothers of the teenagers who rioted when the PSNI came in a "heavy handed approach (on an aside it's one of those self fufilling prophencys, the PSNI head into Sandy Row to arrest a noted republican for questioning in a murder, no officer in his right mind is going in there without backup, and they know the situation is going to be tense, so they go in strong otherwise they'll be ripped to pieces, and the IRA condemn the PSNI, but I doubt they kneecaped any teenager who engaged in anti social behaviour) anyway the mothers gave out to their kids and anti IRA graffiti has appeared.

I think we're seeing the "core supporters" of the IRA who needed them when being oppressed by Unionist mobs and the B specials and now ten years after the cease fire they've grown weary to the IRAs bullying and abuse.

All I can say it's about f*cking time.

Sand

I hate agreeing with Sands (sorry mate) but he's right here;

Theres enough people around here to share your pain that you could set up your own support group.

Cork

Sand wrote:

Another said " Crinimals in SF/IRA? Thats unpossible!" [/Prediction]

Yes - The comment that the members of an illegal organisation were not criminal was classic. It would be funny - if it was not tragic.

But even with the punishment beatings, bank raid and the recent murder of Robert McCartney - some in our society will still maintain that the IRA are not a criminal organisation.

"The five-man IRA gang ran back into the bar and ordered everyone to say nothing. They then slipped out towards the Markets, where republican supporters helped them wash blood from their clothing and footwear. Even the bar was 'forensically' cleaned while McCartney and Devine lay bleeding outside. No one rang an ambulance.

Only a passing police patrol spotted the two men on the ground, driving past them at first because they thought they were drunk. When they realised what had happened, the officers rushed McCartney and Devine to hospital.

McCartney clung to life for another eight hours. His five sisters - Gemma, Claire, Paula, Donna and Catherine - watched him die the following day shortly after 8am. Gemma had to telephone her mother, Catherine, on holiday in Spain. Now the sisters are determined to bring his killers to justice - even if that means standing up to the IRA.
.

At the bottom of Mountpottinger Road, one of the main routes through the Short Strand, fresh graffiti has appeared criticising recent attempts by the British and Irish governments to link the IRA to the Northern Bank robbery. Gerry Adams, who has insisted that there are no criminals inside the IRA, echoed this sentiment.

Paula McCartney is not impressed by these denials: 'I would like to ask him [Adams] if what happened to Robert wasn't a crime.'
QUOTE]


Link

This murder was a disgrace & hope that those who carried it out are cought and that all of us have the moral fibre to call this murder a crime.

lomb

Cork wrote:

Yes - The comment that the members of an illegal organisation were not criminal was classic. It would be funny - if it was not tragic.

But even with the punishment beatings, bank raid and the recent murder of Robert McCartney - some in our society will still maintain that the IRA are not a criminal organisation.

At the bottom of Mountpottinger Road, one of the main routes through the Short Strand, fresh graffiti has appeared criticising recent attempts by the British and Irish governments to link the IRA to the Northern Bank robbery. Gerry Adams, who has insisted that there are no criminals inside the IRA, echoed this sentiment.

Paula McCartney is not impressed by these denials: 'I would like to ask him [Adams] if what happened to Robert wasn't a crime.'
QUOTE]


Link

This murder was a disgrace & hope that those who carried it out are cought and that all of us have the moral fibre to call this murder a crime.

the ira and sf will be finished in a few years most probablly. hell even their core supporters are deserting them. which normal person would support 'punishment beatings' murders, drug dealing, smuggling, bank jobs, kidnappings. these guys are seriously nuts and even their most die hard supporters are seeing the light.

monument

Clearly, it was wrong and regrettable. And I also condemn it, it was inexcusable.

Sand wrote:

and instead has advised people to go to a solicitor or a priest with evidence regarding the murder!

First off, we are talking about people who do not trust the police. Secondly going to a solicitor or a priest could be safer then going to the police directly.

Sand wrote:

Apparently the families have put up posters looking for statements, but were told by a local community center ( unnamed in the interview) that they wouldnt be allowed to put them up as they contained the PNSI insignia and thus was offensive!

I read an interview with the family on Sunday, and they said no such thing.

The local community centre just wanted the RUC/PSNI logo blocked out – quite different.

Sand wrote:

SDLP

As for the SDLP, the majority of the party apparently wants to join FF, and agree with FF’s core values more then their own party’s apparent leftist image. Oh, I see FF the Republican Party.

Sand wrote:

Crinimals in SF/IRA? Thats unpossible!

SHOCKER: Criminals in the IRA (an illegal group)! What a scoop!

lomb wrote:

the ira and sf will be finished in a few years most probablly. hell even their core supporters are deserting them. which normal person would support 'punishment beatings' murders, drug dealing, smuggling, bank jobs, kidnappings. these guys are seriously nuts and even their most die hard supporters are seeing the light.

"and sf" pardon?

The IRA had plans to disband and it's still on the cards...
IRA may go back on road to disbandment

mycroft

Sand wrote:

Theres enough people around here to share your pain that you could set up your own support group.

Still think Brendan is a fat unfunny right wing c*nt with no real opinion and poor research and the kind of argument that couldn't survive outside a vaccum.

lomb

mycroft wrote:

Still think Brendan is a fat unfunny right wing c*nt with no real opinion and poor research and the kind of argument that couldn't survive outside a vaccum.

what and a guy wasnt murdered, another severely injured, witnessed by a large number of people who arent talking, in IRA turf, a crime scene that wasnt cleaned......................
if u dont trust him http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/default.stm

cdebru

things like this just prove to me that the IRA has to be disbanded before it descends further into criminality

and that the policing issue has to be sorted out in the vacuum that exists now it allows thugs like these to be a law unto themselves.

lomb

cdebru wrote:

things like this just prove to me that the IRA has to be disbanded before it descends further into criminality

and that the policing issue has to be sorted out in the vacuum that exists now it allows thugs like these to be a law unto themselves.

i actually to some extent feel sorry as a human for these ira animals. they are a product of an upbringing made by shocking treatment at the hands of security services and unfairness. no one can deny the injustices inflicted on the catholic community there. but times have to move on. these thugs will never change whether u disband them or not. it will take a full generation for things in the north to change as these animals go to their fate same as the rest of us. anyone who cant see that is a fool.

mike65

Its empowering to see ppl standing up to killers, I guess they belive they have little to loose right now which in itself gives one strength. Its seems to have emboldened the local population, maybe they finally see an oppotunity to get the provos off thier collective backs. The PIRA may have served them a purpose in the past but not now.

from the Blanket

Despite what has been said of the IRA in recent weeks, or what motivates its leadership, it is still very difficult to conceive of the body of its membership as being motivated by criminal self-aggrandisement. Some of those named as being suspects in the Northern Bank robbery would have ability in abundance to plan and execute the raid but they would be clueless when it comes to thinking like criminals. The minds they are equipped with lack criminal intent.

Yet it is indisputable that a strain of vicious criminality does lurk within the IRA, a parasite feeding off the legitimacy that association with the IRA provides. Its one attitude towards the community it feeds upon is that of the emperor Caligula, 'Oderint dum Metuant': 'let them hate as long as they fear.'

news just in

Mike.

cdebru

lomb wrote:

i actually to some extent feel sorry as a human for these ira animals. they are a product of an upbringing made by shocking treatment at the hands of security services and unfairness. no one can deny the injustices inflicted on the catholic community there. but times have to move on. these thugs will never change whether u disband them or not. it will take a full generation for things in the north to change as these animals go to their fate same as the rest of us. anyone who cant see that is a fool.

I disagree the situation at the moment is that there is a policing vacuum
when this issue is sorted out when people from these areas can join the police force and it becomes completely acceptable to everyside
then it can remove these people from society it seems the local community has demonstrated its disgust at these people however at the moment thats all they feel they can do

when the IRA is disbanded that cover that some of these thugs are using will be gone

lomb

cdebru wrote:

when the IRA is disbanded that cover that some of these thugs are using will be gone

true, true. the police seem powerless there. ive never seen anything like it in the civilised world. why arent the northern bank robbers behind bars. why is the key suspect murderer here sharing the same streets of dublin as the rest of us. wonders will never cease...........

pete

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams has urged anyone who knew about Robert McCartney's killing two weeks ago in Belfast to pass that information on.

The West Belfast MP also launched a scathing attack on those who carried out the stabbing, and stressed that his party supported the victim's family in their search for justice.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0214/mccartneyr.html

hawkmoon269

news just in

More weasel words from weasel Adams. Note he is very careful not to call for people to pass the information onto the police force.

pete

Gerry Kelly wrote:

“I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans.

“I repudiate this brutal killing in the strongest terms possible.”

He added: “No one has any right, as has been claimed, to prevent anyone from helping the McCartney family.

“People with reservations about assisting the PSNI should give any information they might have either to the family, a solicitor or any other authoritative or reputable person or body.”

looks like someone's being hung out to dry if you ask me

FTA69

This was a disgusting and foul murder and whoever did it deserves the strongest possible punishment. If IRA members were involved they have brought shame to Republicanism as a whole and I truly hope the culprits are brought to justice in one form or another. Unrepresentative thuggery has no place within the Republican Movement and it is up to those in the Movement to ensure the weeding out of undesirable elements before any incident like this occurs again.

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

and it is up to those in the Movement to ensure the weeding out of undesirable elements before any incident like this occurs again.

Nice condemn the murder but at the same time it's the IRA's job to sort the problem out in their own fair and just manner and not the courts and the law, well that just confirms the commitment to the IRA to the rule of law divisible between nationalist and unionist community.

FTA69

The statement you quoted was not refferring to the recent murder but was a broad statement made to illustrate the fact that if the IRA want to retain the respect of their communities they need to expel thugs of every hue. The establishment in the Six Counties is also not very preoccupied with the "law" but rather what suits them best at a particular time.

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

The statement you quoted was not refferring to the recent murder but was a broad statement made to illustrate the fact that if the IRA want to retain the respect of their communities they need to expel thugs of every hue. The establishment in the Six Counties is also not very preoccupied with the "law" but rather what suits them best at a particular time.

Uh huh nice to see you back after you mole like denial over your claims that the branch were intimidating members like yourself in free west waterford.

Nice btw trying to turn this on the lawessness of the govt of the 6 counties, the thing is people like the victims of the monaghan and dublin bombings get to take their case to the european court of human rights the RA don't have an ombudsman and all the tut tutting and "down with this sort of thing" that Mary Mc, Adams, and Mc Guinness, doesn't help the fact that they are the political wing of a terrorist organisation which slit one throat and stab another man, and then had their followers forensicaly wipe the pub for evidence. God yes heres an organisation commited to the peace process.

FTA69

IRA members may have been involved in that murder, but that is not to mean that the IRA as an organisation is responsible. Every organisation has its thugs, that is an inevitable fact. Individual IRA members during the War of Independence sometimes robbed property/cattle for themselves and there have been stories of them murdering people, is the organisation as a whole to be tainted? I believe not. Are they at fault for not reporting the incidents to the forces of "law and order" of the day? Again I believe not. Organisations cannot be responsible for the unrepresentative and unsanctioned actions of a few rogue members involved in a drunken brawl that elevated into a mindless killing.

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice. We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice. We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

Of course you cannot support the police, here is an opportunity for the police and the criminal justice system to prove to the nationalist community that they can deal with criminality,and, apply the full rigour of the law, in a fair and evenhanded fashion, but republicanism cannot let that happen, as the genie would be out of the bottle.

jbkenn

Villain

This was a terrible act of crime that cannot go unpunished, Gerry Adams has called on anyone that knows anything to come forward and I believe they should do so quickly.

The people who carried out this crime have no place in soceity, and I believe some of the people involved may have worked for SF during elections, SF should ban these people from having any connection with the party.

swiss

Absolutely disgusting.

This event, to my mind, absolutely epitomises everything that I find objectionable about the republican movement. It appears extremely evident to me that the IRA are a front for thugs such as the men responsible for this murder, as has long been my assertion.

SF/IRA men were responsible for this killing.
SF/IRA men were responsible for the subsequent cover up.

Gerry Adams statement, instead of being helpful, is a glaring hypocrisy. Not only does he carefully refrain from advising people to give information to the policing service, he states that they should contact an "authoritative or reputable person or body". Given that Sinn Féin/IRA view themselves as a law onto themselves, when viewed through the skewed perspective of provisional republicanism, this means reporting information to Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin alone.

Furthurmore, since these men are in continued involvement with Sinn Féin, the people who potentially have most information about these killers are the Sinn Féin party. To whom are they giving information regarding these men? Themselves? This blatant double standard is almost as objectionable to me as the actions of the thugs themselves.

One thing I do find heartening is the fact that this incident has made traditional supporters of SF/IRA see them as the parasites that they are within their midst, as opposed to their supposed "defenders".

Villain

swiss wrote:

Gerry Adams statement, instead of being helpful, is a glaring hypocrisy. Not only does he carefully refrain from advising people to give information to the policing service, he states that they should contact an "authoritative or reputable person or body". Given that Sinn Féin/IRA view themselves as a law onto themselves, when viewed through the skewed perspective of provisional republicanism, this means reporting information to Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin alone.

That is not true, read Gerry Kellys statement.

swiss

You are correct, it was Gerry Kelly who made the specific statements I alluded to above. Gerry Adams endorsed the overall sentiment.

Nevertheless, my original point stands. His comment about repudiating the killing would be risible were not the circumstances so tragic. I believe he has information about the killers. Not only are they members of his party, they are members of the IRA. If he is so serious about passing on information to "relevant authorities", why does he not do so instead of telling other people to do it? Why is he so ambiguous about who to contact and why?

I can only conclude that although he states that nobody involved in this killing acted as a republican he is prepared to protect them as a republican. At the very least he will not pass on information to the PSNI, and I am quite certain that no other member of Sinn Féin will either.

Naturally, if I hear that these men have been arrested, and Sinn Féin has provided the information necessary to bring about these arrests, then I will be pleasantly surprised. I won't hold my breath.

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

.. Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers....

From what we can gather this murder happened two weeks ago, and it looks like it only now in the face of both local community pressure and media interest that SF is taking any interest. What if the circumstances were much the same, but the victim was not a republican supporter ? Would SF feel any need to take an interest if they didn't see their support base at risk?

FTA69

To state that the IRA as a whole is simply a parasitical body of thugs underlines your ignorance about the IRA swiss. Yes of course there are undesirable elements within the IRA, there always has been and unfortunately there always will be. That however, should not undermine the good work put in by Republicans in the aforementioned areas at interface points etc.

Members of the 26 County Army in Eritrea were involved in a scandal involving underage African prostitutes, is the whole force to be blamed for the actions of a few?

Regards the passing of information, you are misrepresenting Sinn Féin's position when you assert that information should be given to us alone. First of all, the party is not responsible for, or authoritive of any IRA members or their individual actions. Second of all, Alex Maskey, Joe O'Donnell, Gerry Adams and Gerry Kelly all said that people should go to the best body or individual of their choice, that might include the police or that might not.

Would SF feel any need to take an interest if they didn't see their support base at risk?

Sinn Féin was not responsible for this murder and they condemned it utterly. They believe that the murderers should be brought to justice and have encouraged people to give information to whoever they choose. Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

Stabshauptmann

This IMO is the main problem with the IRA (I know others have bigger problems with them). Lads come along get used to living above the law and become thugs (I disagree that the IRA has always been a meeting place for thugs).
Even when operating under orders "Civil Administration" bugs the hell out of me. As Ive said before I dont belive in absolutes and so the notion of a juctice system with no form of appeal (since all sentences are permanent and irreversable) is sickening.

These dip-shíts should not be given protection by the ira if they acted free lance, it would be good pr for adams and sf and the IRA. I dont know who these guys are though, if they are senior members like its reported then its probably unlikely the IRA will be keen to discipline them or afraid to loose them.

Villain

swiss wrote:

If he is so serious about passing on information to "relevant authorities", why does he not do so instead of telling other people to do it? Why is he so ambiguous about who to contact and why?

I can only conclude that although he states that nobody involved in this killing acted as a republican he is prepared to protect them as a republican. At the very least he will not pass on information to the PSNI, and I am quite certain that no other member of Sinn Féin will either.

Naturally, if I hear that these men have been arrested, and Sinn Féin has provided the information necessary to bring about these arrests, then I will be pleasantly surprised. I won't hold my breath.

I would like to think that if Gerry Adams had information that could lead to an arrest he would make it available to the PSNI, but I'm realistic enough to know that might not happen. I do however feel that the statements from Adams and Kelly will give poeple the security to come forward with information.

jman0

1. SF not advising people to communicate to the PSNI is entirely consistant with their views on policing. So they can only advise people to communicate with parties that people may have confidence in, solicitors, clergy, whatever.
They are not advising against communicating with the police, rather they are being consitant with their party position on policing.

2. The allegation that persons within the pub conspired to wipe evidence is suggestive that persons within the pub are supportive of the accused, rather than the victim.

3. I've never heard of the IRA commiting death by knife, why not use a gun which would surely be the more conventional weapon of choice... maybe this is because those weapons have already been decommissioned by the IRA .
Which goes to show that even in the absence of firearms, extra-judicial killing can and probably will occur.