SF/IRA go too far?

Villain

jman0 wrote:

3. I've never heard of the IRA commiting death by knife, why not use a gun which would surely be the more conventional weapon of choice... maybe this is because those weapons have already been decommissioned by the IRA .
Which goes to show that even in the absence of firearms, extra-judicial killing can and probably will occur.

That is one of the worst posts I have ever seen on boards, I ask you to please edit or delete it :mad:

jman0

irish1 wrote:

That is one of the worst posts I have ever seen on boards, I ask you to please edit or delete it :mad:

I'll edit it if you can show me what board rules in violates.

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

..... Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

This does not address my point at all. To refresh, SF only seem to be taking an interest two weeks after the murder because of local community pressure and media interest. This suggests that if the victim was not a republican supporter SF would have no real interest in the guilty being brought to justice.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that SF are responsible for this murder, or that there is any political aspect to it, so I really don’t understand why you are addressing a point that no-one has made.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

IRA members may have been involved in that murder, but that is not to mean that the IRA as an organisation is responsible. Every organisation has its thugs, that is an inevitable fact.

An organisation whose existence is predicated on the use of violence for political aims is inevitably going to have more than its share of thugs - yet another reason why the IRA should not exist.

FTA69 wrote:

Organisations cannot be responsible for the unrepresentative and unsanctioned actions of a few rogue members involved in a drunken brawl that elevated into a mindless killing.

They could, however, do the right thing by helping bring those rogues to justice.

FTA69 wrote:

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice.

What are those people supposed to do with that information? If they are law-abiding citizens, they will pass it on to the police - so why not encourage the people in question to go directly to the police themselves?

FTA69 wrote:

We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

It would be more honest to say that you "will not" rather than "cannot" support the police. This is a question of choice on the part of Sinn Féin: they are choosing to prioritise a political stance over justice for the family of yet another murder victim.

FTA69 wrote:

Members of the 26 County Army in Eritrea were involved in a scandal involving underage African prostitutes, is the whole force to be blamed for the actions of a few?

I think you mean the Irish Army. Did the Army and the Department of Defence close ranks, initiate a coverup, and tacitly (or otherwise) discourage witnesses from talking to the police about that incident?

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin was not responsible for this murder and they condemned it utterly. They believe that the murderers should be brought to justice

...as long as that justice doesn't involve co-operation with the appropriate authorities? Hypocrisy is far too kind a word.

FTA69 wrote:

...and have encouraged people to give information to whoever they choose.

Suppose they choose to tell their brother-in-law. How, exactly, is that supposed to help bring the murderers to justice?

FTA69 wrote:

Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

Whoah, hangon. What are you saying? That Sinn Féin as an organisation are not responsible, or that nobody connected with Sinn Féin is responsible? From what I gathered on the radio, those alleged to be responsible are party activists, and have been seen entering and leaving the Sinn Féin offices on a regular basis since the murder.

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

I would like to think that if Gerry Adams had information that could lead to an arrest he would make it available to the PSNI, but I'm realistic enough to know that might not happen.

Let's suppose Gerry does have that information, and let's suppose he decides to tell his dog instead of the police. Would you still have the same respect for Sinn Féin as a political party?

irish1 wrote:

I do however feel that the statements from Adams and Kelly will give poeple the security to come forward with information.

It seems much more likely to me that the same statements are coded warnings to people not to talk to the police if they know what's good for them. If the Gerries thought it was OK for people to talk to the police, why not say so?

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

Let's suppose Gerry does have that information, and let's suppose he decides to tell his dog instead of the police. Would you still have the same respect for Sinn Féin as a political party?

I would not have the same respect for Gerry Adams, thats for sure, as for the party I don't know.

oscarBravo wrote:

It seems much more likely to me that the same statements are coded warnings to people not to talk to the police if they know what's good for them. If the Gerries thought it was OK for people to talk to the police, why not say so?

I see what your saying but if you look at the history of policing in the North I think you can see why SF don't tell people to go directly to the PSNI, they don't however tell them not to!

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

I see what your saying but if you look at the history of policing in the North I think you can see why SF don't tell people to go directly to the PSNI, they don't however tell them not to!

I can't see that at all. Neither can the family of the murdered man - many of whom were committed SF voters up until a couple of weeks ago.

As for looking at history, I've said it before: your past isn't your future, unless you live there. If people took their minds off history long enough to look to the future, the North might not be in the state it's in.

swiss

jman0 wrote:

I'll edit it if you can show me what board rules in violates.

It doesn't break any guideline or rule as far as I can tell, but it is a highly injudicious point. Not all IRA guns have been decommissioned. Also, why the smilie? Do you find the point amusing?

FTA69 wrote:

To state that the IRA as a whole is simply a parasitical body of thugs underlines your ignorance about the IRA swiss.

I simply stated that I see the IRA as a front for thuggery and criminality. I don't contend that there is also an element of idealism, however corrupted, that seeks to defend catholic communities and achieve the aim of a united Ireland within that organisation. It is the means of executing those aims, rather then the aims themselves, with which I have an issue.

I would furthurmore posit that believing that the IRA are not a parasitical body displays an equal level of ignorance regarding that organisation. I would also contend that the levels of thuggery and criminality have reached such a state that whatever mandate that may have existed vis á vis the original goals of the IRA have been eclipsed by the mandate of personal gains and power for it's members, achieved through criminal acts.

This is merely the latest in a long line of incidents which serve to undermine the brutality, lawlessness and impunity of IRA operatives, with the tacit complicity of the IRA adjunct, Sinn Féin. It has got to stop.

ishmael whale

SF seem to be suggesting a sort of DIY approach to homicide investigation.

Presumably once the family have enough evidence they hold a court case in their sitting room, and if the defendants are found guilty they get locked up in a garden shed until deemed eligible for parole.

Methinks they are finding it hard to talk themselves out of this corner.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0215/mccartneyr.html
“SF wants transparency on McCartney killing

15 February 2005 15:52
Sinn Féin Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness has appealed for anyone with information about the recent killing of Robert McCartney to give that information to the victim's family.

Mr McCartney, 33, was fatally stabbed during a fight at Magennis's Bar in Belfast over two weeks ago.

Speaking in London this afternoon, Mr McGuinness condemned the killing and said the McCartney family deserved justice. He said anyone with reservations about going to the PSNI should pass any information they had 'to the family or any respected organisation'. ….”

BuffyBot

Sinn Féin was not responsible for this murder and they condemned it utterly. They believe that the murderers should be brought to justice and have encouraged people to give information to whoever they choose. Unfortunately because Sinn Féin have been wrongly blamed for this killing they have been forced to react strongly to it.

Only after considerable pressure. If they were so concerned, you would imagine they would have been a bit quicker to disavow knowledge and call for people to come forward

FTA69

ishmael whale wrote:

I don’t think anyone has suggested that SF are responsible for this murder, or that there is any political aspect to it, so I really don’t understand why you are addressing a point that no-one has made.

The title of this thread labels Sinn Féin as responsible for the murder! To clarify my response to you, if the victim was a non-Republican there would be the same response in my view because any murder carried out by rogue IRA members would result in the same arguments put forward by people here.

FTA69

BuffyBot wrote:

Only after considerable pressure. If they were so concerned, you would imagine they would have been a bit quicker to disavow knowledge and call for people to come forward

What alledged IRA members may or may not get up to is not the business of Sinn Féin and as such they were slower to discover the circumstances surrounding the murder.

FTA69

I simply stated that I see the IRA as a front for thuggery and criminality. I don't contend that there is also an element of idealism, however corrupted, that seeks to defend catholic communities and achieve the aim of a united Ireland within that organisation. It is the means of executing those aims, rather then the aims themselves, with which I have an issue.

The IRA is not a "front for thugs and criminality", IRA activists are normal people who have been forced to take up armed struggle by circumstances which are dramatically different to most othe rplaces in Europe. IRA members have devoted themselves to a life which sees nothing but hardship, imprisonment or death, they have died on Hunger Strike in several prisons. They are not mindless criminals or thugs. As I said, since its inception in 1916 there have been undesirable elements within Óglaigh na hÉireann but that in no equates with the organisation being a front for thugs.

I would furthurmore posit that believing that the IRA are not a parasitical body displays an equal level of ignorance regarding that organisation. I would also contend that the levels of thuggery and criminality have reached such a state that whatever mandate that may have existed vis á vis the original goals of the IRA have been eclipsed by the mandate of personal gains and power for it's members, achieved through criminal acts.

There are no personal gains to be had from being an IRA member and the organisation retains much the same support amongst its communities as it always did.

This is merely the latest in a long line of incidents which serve to undermine the brutality, lawlessness and impunity of IRA operatives, with the tacit complicity of the IRA adjunct, Sinn Féin. It has got to stop.

Sinn Féin condemns utterly all acts of thuggery, including the recent murder of Bert McCartney. The vast majority of IRA members are in no way linked to this type of behaviour.

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

SF seem to be suggesting a sort of DIY approach to homicide investigation.

Presumably once the family have enough evidence they hold a court case in their sitting room, and if the defendants are found guilty they get locked up in a garden shed until deemed eligible for parole.

Methinks they are finding it hard to talk themselves out of this corner.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0215/mccartneyr.html
“SF wants transparency on McCartney killing

15 February 2005 15:52
Sinn Féin Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness has appealed for anyone with information about the recent killing of Robert McCartney to give that information to the victim's family.

Mr McCartney, 33, was fatally stabbed during a fight at Magennis's Bar in Belfast over two weeks ago.

Speaking in London this afternoon, Mr McGuinness condemned the killing and said the McCartney family deserved justice. He said anyone with reservations about going to the PSNI should pass any information they had 'to the family or any respected organisation'. ….”

Sinn Fein are being consistent with their position on policing
ie that the PSNI are not acceptable yet
however it is odd in regards that if the deal proposed in december had been agreed the PSNI would have suddenly become acceptable
sinn fein would have taken its places on the policing boards they would have had a minister either for justice or policing in a few months

then the sinn fein leadership would have to actively encourage people to pass on information to the PSNI

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

The title of this thread labels Sinn Féin as responsible for the murder!.

Are you suggesting that SF statements on this topic are in response to the title of this thread? I never knew they monitored us so closely.

Can I also suggest that the substance of the contributions to this thread make it clear that the question at issue is SF’s position on rogue IRA members who engage in criminal acts with no political aspects.

FTA69 wrote:

To clarify my response to you, if the victim was a non-Republican there would be the same response in my view because any murder carried out by rogue IRA members would result in the same arguments put forward by people here.

You seem to have enormous faith in the ability of this forum to influence SF policy.

However, in reality, it would appear that one of the key reasons that SF had to comment on the case is the fact that the victim is an SF supporter. It is far from clear that they would have a similar interest if a group of drunken IRA members killed a Progressive Democrat supporter in a pub brawl on the way home from a commemoration in Bodenstown. I doubt if SF are much influenced by "arguments put forward by people here."

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

The IRA is not a "front for thugs and criminality", IRA activists are normal people who have been forced to take up armed struggle by circumstances which are dramatically different to most othe rplaces in Europe. IRA members have devoted themselves to a life which sees nothing but hardship, imprisonment or death, they have died on Hunger Strike in several prisons. They are not mindless criminals or thugs. As I said, since its inception in 1916 there have been undesirable elements within Óglaigh na hÉireann but that in no equates with the organisation being a front for thugs..

I agree with all that except the IRA has not been involved in an armed struggle for over 10 years
alot of the current IRA membership were not active during the conflict

what will and may already be happening to IRA is that because it does not have a war to fight it will drift into criminality
this is exactly what happened to the Official IRA it went into criminality originally to fund its political aspirations in the Workers Party but eventually just as a criminal gang out to line there own pockets even printing theri own money
I do not want that to happen to the IRA it will only besmirch the memory of the sacrifices that people made during the armed struggle

FTA69 wrote:

There are no personal gains to be had from being an IRA member and the organisation retains much the same support amongst its communities as it always did..

at the moment but if events like this murder continue that support will quickly disappear

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin condemns utterly all acts of thuggery, including the recent murder of Bert McCartney. The vast majority of IRA members are in no way linked to this type of behaviour.

yes but people want to see something done about it not just a bit of condemnation and lets hope people forget about it
unfortunately if this crime goes unpunished then all IRA members are tarred with the one brush

FTA69

I agree with all that except the IRA has not been involved in an armed struggle for over 10 years
alot of the current IRA membership were not active during the conflict

what will and may already be happening to IRA is that because it does not have a war to fight it will drift into criminality
this is exactly what happened to the Official IRA it went into criminality originally to fund its political aspirations in the Workers Party but eventually just as a criminal gang out to line there own pockets even printing theri own money

I agree with you to an extent but it is not a given that former guerillas will turn into criminals, it hasn't always happened in the past. That is why I hope to see the Army done away with once its purpose has been fulfilled.

I do not want that to happen to the IRA it will only besmirch the memory of the sacrifices that people made during the armed struggle

I don't think any Republican does.

at the moment but if events like this murder continue that support will quickly disappear

True, it will and the IRA must get its house in order quickly.

yes but people want to see something done about it not just a bit of condemnation and lets hope people forget about it
unfortunately if this crime goes unpunished then all IRA members are tarred with the one brush

Again I agree with you.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

I agree with you to an extent but it is not a given that former guerillas will turn into criminals, it hasn't always happened in the past. That is why I hope to see the Army done away with once its purpose has been fulfilled.
.

I believe at this time although its purpose has not been fulfilled ( ie a united Ireland)
the IRA should be stood down and the weapons decommissioned it is in the interest of republicans and of the memory of those who gave their lives

Sand

I would like to think that if Gerry Adams had information that could lead to an arrest he would make it available to the PSNI, but I'm realistic enough to know that might not happen.

Why? Surely Adams as the leader of a law abiding democratic party that holds seats in our Dail would be happy to provide any information that he could in the matter of a brutal murder like this, or indeed in any other case?

Republicans are not shying away from this issue at all and nor are they suggesting people should protect the murderers, they have made it clear that people with evidence should go to people they deem to be the best choice. We cannot support the police, or encourage the supporting of the police for reasons I have outlined many times before in this board. That does not equate with us protecting or approving of this murder.

Paula McCartney disagrees. Shes accusing SF/IRA of covering for their members who committed the murder of her brother, of intimidating people to prevent them coming forward with evidence and of attempting to prevent the police from investigating the crime by trying to organise riots. The writer in the Blanket, (that west brit rag) also echoes the view that SF/IRA are attempting to cover this up.

She has repeatedly stated she wants people to co-operate with the police on this matter, and yet SF/IRA continue to feel the capture of her brothers killers is less important than making a petty political point. Id like to find out which community center it was that refused to carry posters looking for information because it contained a PNSI insignia. I'd wonder who would be heavily involved in running that center. Either way, the McCartney family have been treated so shamefully by SF/IRA that they have said they'd sooner vote for the DUP than SF/IRA ever again. Its only a shame that the true nature of SF/IRA became apparent to them in the light of such a tragedy.

So, according to the people involved yes SF/IRA are attempting to protect the killers, and they certainly seem to disprove of co-operating with the police far more than this murder. Are you calling the families liars?

As for Adams, McGuinesses and Kellys words they are a PR damage limitation exercise. Theyre what the party flock - woops faithful - want to hear. Evidence is worthless unless it is backed up by a statement and a willingness to testify at the trial of these men. As such telling the family what you saw, or telling a priest or telling a solicitor is meaningless. SF/IRA know this. The subtext is do not co-operate with the police in this matter whatsoever.

Even McGuinnesses statement that "I have a very clear view that anyone involved in crime should be arrested, they should be brought before the courts and given due process" turned out to be very unclear indeed. He was asked by a journalist if this meant they should be arrested by the PNSI - to which McGuinness bull****ted that they should be " arrested by whoever the appropriate authorities are". He simply couldnt bring himself to say that the PNSI were the appropriate authorities. Unless of course, he means the IRA are the appropriate authorities.

In which case the age old question of who polices the "police" arises in a case where the self appointed community police can murder -and beat, and torture, and torment, and maim though we dont hear as much about these far more common cases - with impunity.

[EDIT] Another question I meant to ask is would Saint Bobby Sands would be proud of the inheritors of his holy war? Did he starve himself to death so he could be used to make a mafia terrorist group more respectable? Who knows, maybe he would be proud. [/EDIT]

FTA69

attempting to prevent the police from investigating the crime by trying to organise riots.

The only people using this case for alterior motives were the police who used this incident as an excuse to stage a massive raid into the Short Strand where they jostled bystanders and started to smash in doors of numerous people. It was in reaction to this attack on the area that people came out to defend their homes. Republicans do not need any encouragement to attack the police in defense of their area, least of all from Sinn Féin or the IRA who have often tried to restrain people from engaging in this behaviour. For your information Sinn Féin members actually had to stand in front of the police in the Short Strand to discourage youths from stoning them. Hardly the actions of "orchestration".

The writer in the Blanket, (that west brit rag) also echoes the view that SF/IRA are attempting to cover this up.

The Blanket's writers may well be Republicans but they are also vehemently opposed to Sinn Féin and the IRA and have denigrated them consistently for years, both in terms of politics and personalities. They are hardly impartial observers.

Id like to find out which community center it was that refused to carry posters looking for information because it contained a PNSI insignia.

The community centre said it had no problems with the statement itself, simply the displaying of the insignia of a police force which has either killed or colluded with the people who killed, numerous people from the area.

So, according to the people involved yes SF/IRA are attempting to protect the killers, and they certainly seem to disprove of co-operating with the police far more than this murder. Are you calling the families liars?

No, I am simply rejecting the assertion that Sinn Féin is seeking to protect the murderers, if they were out to protect them they wouldn't be encouraging people to give information to whoever they see fit.

As such telling the family what you saw, or telling a priest or telling a solicitor is meaningless. SF/IRA know this. The subtext is do not co-operate with the police in this matter whatsoever.

The policy with matters such as these is that people are free to give information to whoever they deem the best choice. McGuinness said that regarding the recent robbery and the same goes for this murder.

[EDIT] Another question I meant to ask is would Saint Bobby Sands would be proud of the inheritors of his holy war? Did he starve himself to death so he could be used to make a mafia terrorist group more respectable? Who knows, maybe he would be proud. [/EDIT]

Do you say things simply to see what result it has on impact?

billy the squid

Why are sinn fein representatives telling witnesses to do one thing while the family of the victim want another.

The family want witnesses to go to the police, have the culprits arrested, lined up in court and tried.

Sinn fein are telling witnesses to go to a priest or a solicitor. which is not the type of justice the family are looking for.

Surely if sinn fein represent all nationalists then they should be able to accomodate the wishes of their constituents.. In my opinion the wishes of both families who were affected by this outrage should supercede any nationalist ideology of "not trusting the PSNI"

FTA69

Why are sinn fein representatives telling witnesses to do one thing while the family of the victim want another.

Because they are being consistent with their policies on policing. Republicans at present will not co-operate or help (or encourage people to do so) the police while they maintain their current form.

Sinn fein are telling witnesses to go to a priest or a solicitor. which is not the type of justice the family are looking for.

Or the police if that is what people consider the best option.

Surely if sinn fein represent all nationalists

They never said they did, they represent the majority of Nationalists.

folk_smith

There, I’ve said it. The IRA did it. And as a result of my assertion I suddenly become the bosom pal of many. I am fulsomely quoted and praised by even the DUP for my honesty and integrity. I am reported favourably in the ‘Daily Telegraph’. Out-of-the-blue, even my books are posthumously declared excellent reads, such is the reward for conforming to the prevailing orthodoxy: that is, bashing Sinn Féin.


But if I say the IRA didn’t do it then I am just a ‘mouthpiece for the Provos’, to be dismissed by those still fighting the war by other means and aiming to curtail the electoral growth of Sinn Féin.


For the purpose of discussion let us respectfully examine the mindset of the PSNI and the Garda Siochana by which they reached the conclusion that the IRA did the Northern Bank raid.


Firstly, it was incredibly well-planned and executed and involved a large number of people who made a clean getaway. To expect to successfully launder such a considerable sum of money requires a huge organisation of sympathisers. Their conclusion: ‘only the IRA could have done it, therefore the IRA must have done it’.


We are told that after the event the PSNI and Garda were able to make sense of things they saw and monitored through surveillance and bugs before the event, with broad hints and leaks about senior members of Sinn Féin being seen in the company of senior members of the IRA. Their conclusion: for days beforehand we saw the barn door open but it never occurred to us that one hell of a horse was planning to bolt. Not very bright intelligence officers, nor does this ‘evidence’ amount to a hill of beans.


The authorities claimed that after the event they received definite intelligence indicating IRA responsibility. Their eyes and ears on the ground - that is, informers - have now confirmed to them that the talk in the bars or among the dogs in the street is that the IRA did it.


This suggests that there is no loose talk in the IRA before an operation, but plenty afterwards. However, the loose talk inexplicably stops when it comes to the location of the white van and the #26.5 million.


Let’s examine the reliability of informers. Certainly, a lot of their information has led to the deaths and imprisonment of many republicans and innocent people. But let’s examine the only ones who were ever stripped of their anonymity and whose credibility was scrutinised in public. I am referring, of course, to those supergrasses that were used to imprison hundreds of people over a five-year period in the early1980s.


Raymond Gilmour is a representative sample who was described by the Lord Chief Justice as being “entirely unworthy of belief”. He was “a selfish and self-regarding man to whose lips a lie invariably comes more naturally than the truth.” The then Chief Constable of the RUC, John Hermon, swore by Gilmour’s credibility, as he swore by the credibility of thirty others, all of whose evidence was eventually rubbished in the appeal courts. Conclusion: if informers are the main source for the PSNI and the Gardai suspecting the IRA then I fully sympathise with Michael McDowell not making a laughing stock of himself by divulging his ‘dodgy dossier’ to Gerry Adams.


For several years now media security pundits (quoting the intelligence services) and dissident republicans have jibed that the ceasefire IRA cannot move because it has been infiltrated from top-to-bottom. That the bank heist was not thwarted disproves that assertion for it indicates that the intelligence services had no prior warning, otherwise they would have captured the raiders or monitored their getaway and arrested even more.


All of the above, of course, merely proves the weakness of the case for the prosecution. It does not prove that the IRA didn’t carry out the heist.


There are republican supporters who have even taken succour from the IRA denial along the lines of “sure, the ‘RA would have to say that”. They appreciate that a formal admission would create an even greater crisis but that the operation itself sends a powerful message to Tony Blair that he has been taking republicans and their compromises for granted.


If that were to turn out to be the correct interpretation then we are at a crossroads but not one as bleak as has been made out. The British government factors into its calculations and negotiations that the IRA cannot return to armed struggle without Sinn Féin paying a heavy price electorally. Undoubtedly, because there is a degree of association, Sinn Féin’s vote would suffer. However, the reason why a return to armed struggle would be foolhardy is because it would be a return to a military stalemate.


It is obvious that Sinn Féin does not represent nor can it speak for the IRA. Yet, London and Dublin propagate that assumption and exploit it to punish Sinn Féin. Even though the crisis in the peace process was caused by the DUP, prior to the Northern Bank raid, the governments do not punish it. The majority of nationalists in the North reject and resent this double standard and these attacks on them and their elected representatives. And that is why the SDLP will not be joining a gerrymandered executive led by Ian Paisley - which appears to be one of the crackpot notions being considered by Blair.


If the two governments insist that ‘the IRA did it’ and punish Sinn Féin then Sinn Féin should refuse to mediate between the IRA and Dublin and London. Let them do a better job. Sinn Féin’s mandate derives from the majority of nationalists in the North, people who are denied their full rights by a combination of British rule, which they bear under sufferance, and DUP intransigence. Attack Sinn Féin and you attack those people.

billy the squid

Two questions though.

1. What kind of justice will a priest or a solicitor be able to give the families.

2. What kind of justice would sinn fein be willing to be given. a kneecapping, or a "body in the bog" jobby.

FTA69 wrote:

They never said they did, they represent the majority of Nationalists.

She said most of the McCartney family, who are well respected and well known within the Short Strand area of the city, voted Sinn Fein. But that all changed when two weeks ago, the former bouncer was kicked, punched and stabbed by a gang of up to 15 people.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=610952

Does that majority include or exclude the ones who voted for them?

I know thats three questions sorry

billy the squid

folk_smith

you forgot one thing. one of the men who were attacked, survived. did it ever occour to you that HE might have given the PSNI the information they needed about the "event" as you so coldly put it.

folk_smith

billy the squid wrote:

folk_smith

you forgot one thing. one of the men who were attacked, survived. did it ever occour to you that HE might have given the PSNI the information they needed about the "event" as you so coldly put it.

That's certainly a possibility - and I didn't mean anything by my use of the noun "event" - but seeing as how it encompasses more than a robbery, I wanted to use an "umbrella" description.

billy the squid

My apologies I thought you were referring to both incidents The murder of Robert McCartney and the bank robbery.

folk_smith

Quite alright - sorry to sort of interject into this thread. What's going on with this stabbing? It seems this thread changed topics - where did the stabbing occur and what are talking heads saying?

Villain

From Breakingnews.ie

The McCartneys, who met Mr Kelly yesterday, now believe Sinn Féin is sincere.

But one of the victim’s sister, Paula McCartney, said: “We need to be more convinced they will be handed over.

“It’s not in Sinn Féin’s interests to cover this up and they seem just as eager as us to get the people who did this.”

I believe SF is doing everything possible to help the family now.

The issue in regards to giving the PSNI information was discussed with Joe O'Donnell yesterday on the last word, he is the councillor for the familys area, he stated that many members of the community are not willing to go to the the PSNI because of the history of collusion. Now I think he was very clear, he said people who don't feel they can go to the police should go to a solictor or priest. He did not tell people not to go to the PSNI.

oscarBravo wrote:

As for looking at history, I've said it before: your past isn't your future, unless you live there. If people took their minds off history long enough to look to the future, the North might not be in the state it's in.

I couldn't agree more, but we don't live there and one of the most important things needed for a police force to succeed is TRUST, and that doesn't excist at present and it will take time for that trust to be establsihed.

oscarBravo

folk_smith wrote:

Quite alright - sorry to sort of interject into this thread. What's going on with this stabbing? It seems this thread changed topics - where did the stabbing occur and what are talking heads saying?

With respect, you're the one who switched topics. This thread is about the murder of a young man, allegedly by IRA members and Sinn Féin activists, and the subsequent equivocation of Sinn Féin about bringing the perpetrators to justice. It was never about the bank robbery.