SF/IRA go too far?

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

I believe SF is doing everything possible to help the family now.

That's quite simply not the case. Whatever about Sinn Féin's political ulterior motives, the established procedure for bringing murderers to justice in any civilised country is to give information to the police. No-one else is in a position to gather the required evidence for a criminal prosecution. To suggest that witnesses should talk to anyone other than the police is to tacitly frustrate the investigation, regardless of the excuses offered for so doing.

irish1 wrote:

The issue in regards to giving the PSNI information was discussed with Joe O'Donnell yesterday on the last word, he is the councillor for the familys area, he stated that many members of the community are not willing to go to the the PSNI because of the history of collusion.

My gut feeling is that many members of the community are not willing to go to the PSNI because the message from the IRA via Sinn Féin is abundantly clear.

irish1 wrote:

Now I think he was very clear, he said people who don't feel they can go to the police should go to a solictor or priest. He did not tell people not to go to the PSNI.

Do you mind explaining to me precisely how a solicitor or priest is going to use that information to advance the criminal investigation? Is there a CID branch to the Catholic Church or the Law Society that we don't know about?

irish1 wrote:

I couldn't agree more, but we don't live there and one of the most important things needed for a police force to succeed is TRUST, and that doesn't excist at present and it will take time for that trust to be establsihed.

It's going to be difficult for a police force to establish trust when no-one will talk to them. It's a vicious circle: the way things are going, these murderers have a fair chance to evade prosecution. Who's ultimately going to get the blame? The police. This will, of course, be used as an excuse for not trusting them in the future.

BuffyBot

I believe SF is doing everything possible to help the family now

Now being the operative word here.

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

That's quite simply not the case. Whatever about Sinn Féin's political ulterior motives, the established procedure for bringing murderers to justice in any civilised country is to give information to the police. No-one else is in a position to gather the required evidence for a criminal prosecution. To suggest that witnesses should talk to anyone other than the police is to tacitly frustrate the investigation, regardless of the excuses offered for so doing

Do you mind explaining to me precisely how a solicitor or priest is going to use that information to advance the criminal investigation? Is there a CID branch to the Catholic Church or the Law Society that we don't know about?

Had you ever heard or giving evidence via deposition?? I'm not a lawyer but I know it is possible to give evidence via deposition, not sure whether the Northern Justice system would allow this in a murder case do

oscarBravo wrote:

My gut feeling is that many members of the community are not willing to go to the PSNI because the message from the IRA via Sinn Féin is abundantly clear.

Well thats your belief, an elected representative for the area believes otherwise. Theres no real way for me or you to know.

oscarBravo wrote:

It's going to be difficult for a police force to establish trust when no-one will talk to them. It's a vicious circle: the way things are going, these murderers have a fair chance to evade prosecution. Who's ultimately going to get the blame? The police. This will, of course, be used as an excuse for not trusting them in the future.

I agree it's a vicious circle, but I think SF have made it clear what nationalists want from a policing service, the Patten report needs to be implemented in full.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Had you ever heard or giving evidence via deposition?? I'm not a lawyer but I know it is possible to give evidence via deposition, not sure whether the Northern Justice system would allow this in a murder case do

Ah, no. You can't give evidence in via deposition in a murder trial. the speak to someone who you trust in the community is always been a IRA euphemism for speak to us and no one else.

Well thats your belief, an elected representative for the area believes otherwise. Theres no real way for me or you to know.

How about an appeal for witnesses to come forward by said elected representives, a real appeal, not just coming out and saying it on the radio. The 70 odd people in the pub were warned by the IRA men after the murder to shut up, and how about said elected representive going to the pub and offering his assurances that Sinn Fein would do everything in their power to ensure no repercusions to those who came forward.

I agree it's a vicious circle, but I think SF have made it clear what nationalists want from a policing service, the Patten report needs to be implemented in full.

And the current PSNI chief has been the most insistent that SF sit on the policing board, here's a real chance for them to prove themselves worthy of that faith

ishmael whale

A little clarity from SF as to how exactly they see supplying information to the family or ‘respected’ people as helping the situation would seem useful at this point.

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=56777&pt=n

‘…. Police have arrested seven people, including a high-ranking Belfast IRA man, but their investigation has been frustrated by a lack of evidence.

The McCartney family claim that witnesses have been ordered to keep silent as part of an intimidation campaign.

They accept that the murder was not sanctioned by the provisionals.

But even though Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams has backed their fight, he pointedly stopped short of recommending anyone with information to contact the police. Republicans in Northern Ireland have refused to endorse the force until their demands for further reforms are met.

However, the family urged him to go further in order to have the gang captured.

In a statement, they said: "The call for those with information to go to a solicitor, priest or ourselves raises questions such as What would this achieve?
"Would this bring Robert`s murderers to justice? Would this secure convictions?

"We call upon Sinn Fein to bring all its influence to bear on those who have the power to ensure these individuals are left with nowhere to hide.

"We are aware of Sinn Fein`s policy on the police, but Sinn Fein, as with other political parties, are capable of not being seen to take a certain course of action."…’

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

I think SF have made it clear what nationalists want from a policing service, the Patten report needs to be implemented in full.

And right now they're making it even clearer that this narrow political agenda is more important to them than bringing murderers to justice. Seriously, how can you support this party?

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

And right now they're making it even clearer that this narrow political agenda is more important to them than bringing murderers to justice. Seriously, how can you support this party?

The same way people support FF and FG, no party is perfect certianly not SF, but I have the right to choose what party I want to vote for.

As I said Oscarbravo, nobody from SF has said don't go to the PSNI, they realise people may not be willing to go to the police force, so they had suggested that they bring information to others. I think its very easy from down here to say what people should do but we don't live in the community.

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

The same way people support FF and FG, no party is perfect certianly not SF, but I have the right to choose what party I want to vote for.

FF and FG have their deep and visible flaws, but I've never seen them prioritise their political agenda over justice for a murderer. Don't you get it? This is not about politics - it's about morality at a fundamental level.

irish1 wrote:

As I said Oscarbravo, nobody from SF has said don't go to the PSNI, they realise people may not be willing to go to the police force, so they had suggested that they bring information to others.

With all due respect, that's a crock. If that was the case, they'd say "go to the police unless you've a problem with them, in which case..." and even then they'd be morally in the wrong.

irish1 wrote:

I think its very easy from down here to say what people should do but we don't live in the community.

You're cheerfully toeing the party line: it's important to do what is necessary to bring murderers to justice - oh, unless of course you have some sort of historical grudge against the police for something that some of their members did in the past, in which case it's ok to let the murderers walk free.

mike65

P O'Niell has just issed forth a statement in which the P-IRA urges those who know something to come forward (no mention of the PSNI though).

Mike.

Cork

mike65 wrote:

P O'Niell has just issed forth a statement in which the P-IRA urges those who know something to come forward (no mention of the PSNI though).

Mike.

The provisional movement know what went on. More word games yet again from Pee.

Has the provisional movement encouraged people to give information to the Police north or south?

They have no respect either for the institutions of state, laws or security forces. These people think that the law should not be applied to them.

Sand

SF/IRAs sudden interest in looking like theyre supporting the familys quest for justice comes three weeks after the murder, and 2 days after the story broke in the news painting them in a bad light.

Pure damage limitation exercise for them - they must be shocked and angered by the audacity of the families to actually criticise them for their meaningless mumbling - and apparent outright sabotage with the "night shift" - regarding co-operating with the investigation and highlight their sinister nature to those who have successfully fooled themselves that SF/IRA are just another political party. They still refuse to support the familys request to co-operate with the police, even though the identified killers are deeply involved in SF as well as the IRA - surprise, surprise. There are 72 people in that pub who saw what happened but are too scared to go forward to the police. Who are they more afraid of? The PNSI, or revenge attacks by SF/IRA units like what Devine and McCartney received?

jbkenn

Sinn Fein - an answer for everything - an answer to nothing
From RTE News http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0216/mccartneyr.html

Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly, who has visited members of the McCartney family, said: 'I don't care who was involved in this horrible killing. Had I been anywhere near where this terrible killing took place, I would immediately have gone to the family and made a statement of what happened there.'

What good would that have done?, the family cannot prosecute the case, only the police can do that.

jbkenn

mike65

God they sound more desperatly mendacious with every pronouncement. One can only imagine they know how this is playing with the average Joe and yet they seem incapable of facing up to the implications of playing the public for fools.


Mike.

Cork

These people know who were responsible for this murder.

They must think the Irish people are the gullable people on the planet.

They have as much respect for the people of this country as they have for it's laws or institutions. (Zero)

pete

Man held in McCartney murder probe
16/02/2005 - 21:05:04

A man was being questioned tonight in connection with the murder of Robert McCartney in a Belfast pub brawl.

A police spokesman confirmed that detectives investigating the murder of the 33-year-old were questioning a suspect.

Mr McCartney, from the Mountpottinger Road area of east Belfast was battered and stabbed to death after a bar fight which was witnessed by more than 100 people.

His family claim the IRA have intimidated witnesses to prevent police identifying the killers. A top IRA man is one of the chief suspects linked to the murder of Mr McCartney.

The IRA has denied involvement in what it described as “a brutal killing”.

http://breakingnews.ie/2005/02/16/story189665.html

ishmael whale

The family seem satisfied with the IRA statement, and that's fine so far as their personal situation goes.

But the general issue remains. SF/IRA were quite happy to ignore this case for two weeks until local community and media pressure made it impossible to ignore. The case even made the Philidelphia Inquirer.

This still leaves the essential principle. What if much the same situation happens to someone who is not an SF supporter, or even not a republican or nationalist ? Are SF/IRA happy with the idea that people should co-operate with the PSNI in investigations of IRA members in connection with any criminal case ?

Or, more likely, can we simply expect that they'd stonewall on any such case in the hope that the media won't pick it up.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4144365
11:44am (UK)
Family Hails IRA Statement over Pub Brawl Murder

The IRA has lifted intimidation fears hanging over terrified witnesses to a brutal pub brawl murder in Northern Ireland, the victim’s family said today.

As detectives questioned a man about the attack on Robert McCartney in Belfast, blamed on republicans, his sisters praised the intervention by the Provisionals.

Paula McCartney said: “We welcome the IRA statement and view it as removing obstacles to witnesses who were afraid to come forward with vital information and evidence.”......

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/10918881.htm?1c
Catholic man's slaying spotlights fear of IRA

Members in the Belfast area did the killing, his family said. More than 50 witnesses won't talk.

By Shawn Pogatchnik
Associated Press
BELFAST, Northern Ireland - The family of a Catholic man reportedly slain by IRA members demanded an end yesterday to the intimidation that dissuades Catholics from cooperating with police - a crucial but often overlooked problem in efforts to bring peace to Northern Ireland.....

mycroft

mike65 wrote:

God they sound more desperatly mendacious with every pronouncement.

Bonus points for using the word "mendacious" btw Mike

FTA69

If you read the IRA statement you will see it says that “Those who were involved must take responsibility for their own actions which run contrary to republican ideals.”

In short, "you're on your own".

Ishmael,
The victim's politics are of no concern really, if IRA members murdered a Protestant member of the UUP there would be the same effects on the political scenario. The point is IRA members shouldn't be involved in this activity full stop.

ishmael whale

FTA69 wrote:

The victim's politics are of no concern really, if IRA members murdered a Protestant member of the UUP there would be the same effects on the political scenario. The point is IRA members shouldn't be involved in this activity full stop.

I totally agree we don’t want to see the IRA involved in criminal acts, and that any murder should receive equal treatment. I’m not confident that it has been established that SF is committed to this.

What has been established is that SF will respond if they see their support base under threat. I’m not confident that they would see their support base under threat in the same direct way if the victim was not an SF supporter.

If the victim’s family were unlikely to, for example, enlist support from SDLP or seemed less able to present a compelling case in the US then SF would be more able to ignore the case. Remember, they did nothing for two weeks.

mike65

mycroft wrote:

Bonus points for using the word "mendacious" btw Mike

I like to push the boat out every so often....and lie is a boring word.

Mike.

Sand

I was just watching Lets Talk there on the BBC and I was very impressed by the guy named Gerard ( didnt get his last name) who was from the area. He challenged Maskey to tell people that they were free to go to the PSNI specifically, and confirmed that people in the local area were scared of the men in balaclavas, not the men in PSNI uniforms. He said intimidation had occured, and that if it was stopped he believed people would be running to the police.

And to be fair to Maskey, after the sort of humming and hawing and hedging we associate with all politicians he did say that people were free to go to the PSNI without fear of intimidation - he is of course only the day shift and there will still be fear from the night shift, but it is an important rubicon that has been crossed, the SF half of the SF/IRA equation saying it was okay to co-operate with the PSNI in a crinimal investigation.

Maskey was then challenged shortly afterwards by another man who argued that SF/IRA often argue that the DUP should get over the idealogical objections and negotiate directly with them, that the Orange Order should get over idealogical objections and negotiate directly with the communities theyre marching through and that surely SF/IRA should take a leaf out of their own book and get over their idealogical objections and deal with the PSNI directly. Maskey didnt have a lot to say back to that.

Perhaps the one of the consequences of all this is that SF/IRA will have to encourage/allow people in republican areas to co-operate with the PSNI in crinimal investigations at the very least. SF/IRAs support base might have moved forward more than SF/IRA have themselves and they might be forced to catch up with them to retain their support. If that is the case, then the future for the North might be a bit brighter.

A Dub in Glasgo

The guy from the area is a cousin of Robert McCartney

Alex Maskey was quite clear on that programme that he recommended people who had info to go to whoever they feel comfortable with. If they are comfortable with the PSNI, they should go to them. Maskey was crystal about this and Stephen King (also on the panel) still wanted more.

Sand

Alex Maskey was quite clear on that programme that he recommended people who had info to go to whoever they feel comfortable with. If they are comfortable with the PSNI, they should go to them. Maskey was crystal about this and Stephen King (also on the panel) still wanted more.

And Im glad he was clear - and I have respect for politicians who talk straight, Maskey wasnt exactly straight, Gerard had to keep nagging him to stop playing charades and actually mention the PSNI specifically, but he reduced the bull**** to signal ratio which is a start. SF/IRA will get more respect, even from me, if they stop talking out of both sides of their mouth and stop trying to keep a leg on each side of the fence. The problem with the unambigious "whoever youre comftable with" line is that an implication can be drawn that if youre comftable with the PSNI then youre not a loyal republican, youre a traitor and a potential informer and the fear is - and its not groundless given the intimidation and murders of suspected informers - that they will be targeted if theyre seen dealing with the PSNI.

To combat that, SF/IRA need to be clear that whilst they have major difficulties with the PSNI they respect the fact that it is the only lawful police force in NI and that people in republican areas can and should co-operate with crinimal investigations, whilst they are negotiating to try and reform it. That would be a respectable position, and as the audience member pointed out that is the sort of pragmatism that SF/IRA say the DUP should employ, instead of passing notes between rooms which is childish. It would also go a long way to rebuilding bridges with the Unionists who find it difficult to embrace sharing government with people who dont share their respect for the rule of law.

As Gerard said, the people are more afraid of the community police than they are of the PSNI, so its obvious to me anyway how their interests are best served.

Sand

Sand wrote:

And to be fair to Maskey, after the sort of humming and hawing and hedging we associate with all politicians he did say that people were free to go to the PSNI without fear of intimidation - he is of course only the day shift and there will still be fear from the night shift, but it is an important rubicon that has been crossed, the SF half of the SF/IRA equation saying it was okay to co-operate with the PSNI in a crinimal investigation.

Agreed-he was fair about it.
You couldnt have expected more from him to be honest as there are genuinely a lot of people in that area and in Republican/nationalist areas who still have a huge distrust of the PSNI and wont want to go to them, quite apart from the SF line itself on going to them.
It's traditional.
There are probably no doubt a lot of people who know in their heart and soul that they want to give information on this murder but cant due to intimidation as Robert McCartneys cousin said tonight.
I doubt Alex Maskeys words tonight are going to be enough to dilute the fear instilled by people capable of inflicting padre pio's on those that inform...
After all the ones doing the intimidating are obviously on the side of the killers and apparently not toe-ing the IRA line on this.