Speeding prosecutions could be in doubt

Our man in Havana

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0214/speeding.html

Game over it would seem

Thousands of prosecutions for speeding could be in doubt following a High Court decision today which found that the laser gun used by Gardaí to monitor speed does not comply with road traffic legislation because it does not produce a written or permanent record.

A High Court opinion was sought by District Judge Leo Malone following submissions made to him in a case in Carrick on Shannon District Court in Co Leitrim.

Motorist Frank Donlon from Ard na Cassa, Dublin Road, Longford was detected by laser gun travelling at 63 miles per hour in a forty mile zone

Mr Donlon was stopped and handed a fixed charge fine of €80. He did not pay the fine and was summoned to appear at Shannon District Court.

Evan O'Dwyer, solicitor for Mr Donlon, argued that since the laser gun used by the Gardaí was incapable of producing a permanent record of the recorded speed it was incapable of complying with the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 2002.

When Judge Malone indicated he would dismiss the summons, the prosecuting Garda asked him to state a case to the High Court.

Today, the court was asked to give its opinion on two questions

Firstly, the court was asked if the laser gun, which does not produce a written or permanent record, meets the requirements of section 21(1) and (3) of the Road Traffic Act 2002. The High Court answered that it does not.

Also, the High Court was asked if the word 'record' contained in the relevant section of the act requires a formal permanent record from speed detection device to establish prime facie proof of the offence in accordance with Section 21. To this question the Court answered yes.

The High Court response to these questions could cast doubt on prosecutions for speeding offences in District Courts across the country.

alleepally

Looks like it alright, very interesting

alleepally

Just looking at the detail of the law and the case mentioned in the report. Are there different types of speed detection devices used by the Gardai. The one above is a laser gun - surely the camera ones have a printed photograph which is then a record, no?

Our man in Havana

The only ones that give a print out are the cameras and gatso vans. Muldoon in the car or behind the hedge is fecked now

Seth Brundle

I believe from reliable sources that there are a few hairdryer type detectors that can print out a receipt and these are based in the Louth area.

As for the cases, these were cases dealt with under the road traffic act 2002. This has been superseeded by the recently released act (2004). Read this... - in other words, if you are pulled over tomorrow don't start demanding a receipt!

Blitzkrieger

Damnit - have to ease up that right foot a bit.

Seth Brundle

hang on, that article may not be fully correct as it seems that the recent update to the legislation as todays Oirish Times states:-

While new legislation came into effect last month with a view to addressing the "loophole" which led to yesterday's decision, legal sources have doubt whether it achieves that objective and have predicted large numbers of legal challenges to future speeding prosecutions

Nonetheless I still wouldn't start getting stroppy with a garda at the side of the road till I was 100% sure!

seamus

If anyone's interested:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a4404.pdf

unkel

That loophole was closed a while ago. RTE are a bit retarded. The guards don't need to give you a receipt. If they say you were speeding, it's legal proof that you were speeding...

Alun

unkel wrote:

That loophole was closed a while ago. RTE are a bit retarded. The guards don't need to give you a receipt. If they say you were speeding, it's legal proof that you were speeding...

Wasn't there a thread here a few weeks ago about someone who was stopped on the N11 and when he asked to see the display on the gun it read much lower than what the guard had told him? If a printed receipt can stop this kind of nonsense then all well and good.

Our man in Havana

I will on principle refuse to pay any speeding tickets until the whole thing is clarified one way or another. The best procedure to adopt is to respectfully as the garda for a printout, if he refuses thats fine just note the time etc and sit tight.

BrianD

Judges decision is a disgrace. Hopefully, the loophole will be closed as a matter of urgency. With all due respect Alun, I view your story as an urban legend. The majority of people aren't in court because of somesort of miscarriage of justice. They have been caught and don't have the balls to accept their punishment and get on with it.

Just as the enforcement of speed limits needs to be widespread and consistent, the punishment needs to be doled out swiftly, fairly and with finality.

Boggle

Judges decision is a disgrace. Hopefully, the loophole will be closed as a matter of urgency. With all due respect Alun, I view your story as an urban legend. The majority of people aren't in court because of somesort of miscarriage of justice. They have been caught and don't have the balls to accept their punishment and get on with it.

Just as the enforcement of speed limits needs to be widespread and consistent, the punishment needs to be doled out swiftly, fairly and with finality.

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

Our man in Havana

Boggle wrote:

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

Amen Brother!

Automan

Boggle wrote:

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

Totally agree.

Eoin

alleepally wrote:

Just looking at the detail of the law and the case mentioned in the report. Are there different types of speed detection devices used by the Gardai. The one above is a laser gun - surely the camera ones have a printed photograph which is then a record, no?

Do the speed guns on the tripods not take a picture? I think that the guard just snaps away with it and you get the fine in the post, rather than pull you over.

Boggle

Do the speed guns on the tripods not take a picture? I think that the guard just snaps away with it and you get the fine in the post, rather than pull you over.

heh heh, another potential flaw in the system as a clever barristor will argue that summonsing in retrospect impairs a drivers ability to defend himself as they might not be able to recall the event by the time they get the ticket. At least when you get pulled over you can argue it on the spot and you will remember the incident/defence.

Eoin

Boggle wrote:

heh heh, another potential flaw in the system as a clever barristor will argue that summonsing in retrospect impairs a drivers ability to defend himself as they might not be able to recall the event by the time they get the ticket. At least when you get pulled over you can argue it on the spot and you will remember the incident/defence.

That logic applies to all Gatso vans and fixed speed cameras - I can't see those being binned. sadly.

Boggle

Unfortunately for revenue generation/gardai the law isn't always concerned with whats easiest for them...

...remember I did say it was only a POSSIBLE flaw in the system. But one which I honestly believe could be argued sucesfully.

Seth Brundle

eoin_s wrote:

Do the speed guns on the tripods not take a picture? I think that the guard just snaps away with it and you get the fine in the post, rather than pull you over.

as per my earlier post...
I believe from reliable sources that there are a few hairdryer type detectors that can print out a receipt and these are based in the Louth area.

All others require you to have a roadside chat.

Eoin

kbannon wrote:

as per my earlier post...
I believe from reliable sources that there are a few hairdryer type detectors that can print out a receipt and these are based in the Louth area.

All others require you to have a roadside chat.

I am not sure that's the case - I have seen guards on their own in Dublin with a camera fixed to a tripod beside their car, as opposed to a hand held hairdryer type and never pulling anyone in, I would imagine that these take photos and are processed later on...

Seth Brundle

I have seen something similar also but a garda friend recently told me of this.
Maybe what he meant was that they are all based in Louth nowadays.
K.

BrianD

Boggle wrote:

heh heh, another potential flaw in the system as a clever barristor will argue that summonsing in retrospect impairs a drivers ability to defend himself as they might not be able to recall the event by the time they get the ticket. At least when you get pulled over you can argue it on the spot and you will remember the incident/defence.

Why does the samesystem work effectively in many other countries? Why not here? Because we Irish have an inability to accept that we break the law and accept our punishment. Oddly in countries such as Australia where it does work, they have a road fatality rate a fraction of those in Ireland. Yes, speed checks need to be more widespread but if you are caught accept it. This guy in Longford was doing allegedly doing 60 in a 40 zone. This man was not suggesting that the speed gun was inaccurate merely that it didn't produce a receipt. Having said that, perhaps the Aussie practice of putting a sign on the road (Police: Your speed has been checked) might counteract the arguement in the quote.

The Clown Man

God, I hope there is a loophole; I got my first ticket in 7 years of driving on Wolfe Tone Quay there a few weeks back. I asked for some sort of reciept but was told there was none.

I was doing 43mph in a 31mph zone - a bit harsh imo and EVERYONE manages to sneak above the limit coming off the heuston bridge and down the quays. Thats why there was 3 cars pulled over there when I got pulled and 2 more cars and a motorbike pulled in the time it took for the guard to write in his little book.

Boggle

I've seen them in Clonmel as well (out by showerings). What you are referring to kbannon is the handheld speed guns which can print out the time and speed you were doing, The tripod things are cameras which will give a photo ... although I've never had to test that theory.

Boggle

Clownman - was the ticket written in kph or mph? Basically did they scribble out the miles on the ticket and write in kilometers? If they did then this is tampering and may not be permissible... you'll have to check with a solicitor though.

BrianD

Boggle wrote:

SIt Fido!! Gooood dawg!...

No offence mate but I'm not a revenue generator for the govt and wont be treated as such. If you want to prosecute me for a nothing crime then you had better dot your I's and cross tour T's cos I will use my right to fight it.

If I am driving in a dangerous manner then fair enuff, but to say that I am a few miles over some ill-conceived limit is BullSh1t!

I have never read so much rubbish in my life!!! A nothing crime? What on earth are you talking about? Boggle it is your approach to road safety that explains why we have a ridiculously high death and injury rates on our roads. Never mind our massive insurance premiums. The speed limits in Ireland are no different to those set in other countries. The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant and a red herring perpetuated by those carelessly drive their cars i.e. you.

BrianD

The Clown Man wrote:

God, I hope there is a loophole; I got my first ticket in 7 years of driving on Wolfe Tone Quay there a few weeks back. I asked for some sort of reciept but was told there was none.

I was doing 43mph in a 31mph zone - a bit harsh imo and EVERYONE manages to sneak above the limit coming off the heuston bridge and down the quays. Thats why there was 3 cars pulled over there when I got pulled and 2 more cars and a motorbike pulled in the time it took for the guard to write in his little book.

Bit harsh why? It's a city street with a residential element, a national museum close by, plenty of merging traffic and close to one of the busiest rail stations in Ireland. Plus you were 12 miles over the limit - it's not exactly slipping over the limit by a few miles. Fair cop I would have said.

Seth Brundle

BrianD wrote:

The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant and a red herring perpetuated by those carelessly drive their cars i.e. you.

maybe so but I would also argue that many speed traps are set on roads have speed limits that need to be reviewed.

Eoin

The speed limits in Ireland are no different to those set in other countries. The small and unremarkable number of speed limits that could be reviews are insignificant

The point is that in other countries there tend to be speed traps where the police think it is dangerous to speed. Instead, over here they just go where the know they will catch people breaking the speed limit: on roads where it is not dangerous to do so.

For example; UCD bypass (60KMPH), N11 at Loughlinstown (50KMPH on a dual carriageway, even though there is an 80KMPH limit in between these two sections )

If there were more signs saying "Speed traps ahead" where there actually are speed traps, then people will slow down - and that should be the point of the whole thing, not giving people tickets and making money from fines.

The Clown Man

No I was translating from kmph to mph cause it sound so much more in kmph!

And BrianD, I do not contend that I was speeding, I was actually suprised I was becasue I am not a fast driver. It's just that I was travelling in front of the flow of traffic (all moving the same speed as me) and there was a guy pulling up to overtake on the right. No doubt I was speeding but it just seems to be one of those places where the natural flow of the road takes you above the limit.

Having said that, apart from asking why I didn't get some sort of a reciept, I was not being contentious at all.

And now it looks as though if I do contend the ticket, the district court judge will have no coice but to follow the precedent of the High Court and dismiss it.