Screwed by a driving tester!

rymus

Apologies for this, but I thought my recent experiences on the driving test might be of interest to some on this board as well as the Cork city board

Original thread is here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=226517

AMurphy

Bummer, and complain you should. Trick questions are NOT allowed, eg, being instructed to turn against one way signs, red lights, etc.
However, I find the type of lighe I think you are describing a real safety hazard as you have to interpret 2 lights to get any sense. These things are dangerous. I being "foreign" tho this nonsense might see the red ball before the straight arrow, or may think they are faulty, ie green in all directions, and slam on the brakes. Plus they (or used to anyway) get implemented in every which way, so I nearly got ran over by a bus coming the opposite way, though I had the green turning arrow...... Same tester maybe!.

edit; in retrospect. Assuming your story is correct and the tester (report) supports, ie, he failed you cause you would not run a red light. Then I would fight it. Such a person should not be allowed to test anything and should be withdrawn to a "desk job".
There is no leeway for running a light, unless commanded to do so by a cop in control of the situation in order to make way for safety/emergency equipment, etc.

Seth Brundle

You stopped for a red light. No amount of green upward arrows will legally let you go right. The tester was totally incorrect in their assessment, so much so that they failed you on something which will eventually award you with up to 5 penalty points (Failure to obey traffic lights or to stop at traffic sign adjacent to such lights).
Do not take any crap off them for this!

unkel

You are right! Fight your case all the way. It is desperate if you are absolutely sure you are right and to be found wrong by someone else

AMurphy wrote:

I find the type of lighe I think you are describing a real safety hazard

They are. A lot of traffic lights are very badly designed and illogical

Boggle

Go get a camera, take a photo of the junction and the lights and send it into the papers and the Gerry Ryan show. That should get you sorted quick enough...

AMurphy

unkel wrote:

......
They are. A lot of traffic lights are very badly designed and illogical

given when I was in Germany I noticed excellent light arrangements and given Phillips is a name I see on many lights, you'd imagine Phillips would have std packages for any configuration of junction.
I think the installers pet them any which way and nobody ever checks the work thereafter. I have found both a lack of consistency and logic in their implementation, which leads me to belive there is no standard and if there is a standard, nobody is bothering to insure it is met.

Seth Brundle

Just thinking about it, another way of backing up your case is to write to your local garda superintendant and ask their professional opinion about breaking that particular red light and what would the consequences be if you were caught!

AMurphy

I was browsing throughthe online tests on traffic lights on this site;

J Ryan school of driving

Qyizz 4 - Question 6 as follows. (which I understand as your situation)

You are approaching to turn right, straight ahead filter and red light lit. Junction is clear. Do you :-
Answer 1. Stop in center of junction, wait for right filter
Answer 2. Stop behind white line, wait for the right filter
Answer 3. Drive thru the junction

per the site, teh correct answer is #2.

Per my logic, these lights should be outlawed as unsafe.

rymus

cheers for the link AMurphy

mackerski

AMurphy wrote:

Per my logic, these lights should be outlawed as unsafe.

They're perfectly safe - the meaning of these lights is 100% clearly defined. The only other way to represent the right-of-way conveyed by this layout is to adopt red arrows like in some other countries. FWIW, I find these worse - a big splodge of red is far easier to see. When you have a cluster with a mixture of arrows, some green, some red, I find it far harder to parse the overall meaning.

Now a driver that doesn't understand the logic of filter arrows, that's dangerous alright.

Dermot

AMurphy

mackerski wrote:

They're perfectly safe - the meaning of these lights is 100% clearly defined. The only other way to represent the right-of-way conveyed by this layout is to adopt red arrows like in some other countries. FWIW, I find these worse - a big splodge of red is far easier to see. When you have a cluster with a mixture of arrows, some green, some red, I find it far harder to parse the overall meaning.

Now a driver that doesn't understand the logic of filter arrows, that's dangerous alright.

Dermot

Is this type of signal layout used across EU. Cannot say I have not been in EU mainland in past weveral years.

Now I find your answer interesting cause you say the it's perfectly safe and 100% understood, then go on to give all teh reasons it is not?.

eg. "a big splodge of red is far easier to see." directly above a green little arrow....So what do you see first? A big splodge of RED., but in reality the little green arrow may the important item to see. So we have the unimportant/unnecessary/not applicable lamp dominant in the display. Against a setting/slanting sun, which do you think you will see first?.
So to get meaning from the lamp you need to see and read 2 lamps. 1 is sufficient if not confounded with another.

so as for "the meaning of these lights is 100% clearly defined". It may well be 100% defined. but is it "self defining".
You could say ":CTRL-ALT-DELEAT" is 100% defined, but is it self defined or intuitive, like the ON/OFF switch. Not at all.


Then you add, "When you have a cluster with a mixture of arrows, some green, some red, I find it far harder to parse the overall meaning.".
That is what these lights are.... a mixture of arrows, some red and some green.

Thanks for agreeing.

Now, we have to take the implementation. a few years ago, I came across two of these lights iwth green arrows to the Right, one in Dub and one in Lim and whether the oncoming traffic also had a green circle or choose to ignore a red, I'll never know, but the traffic certainly did not stop on the Green filter arrow to the right. Which might add to my suspicion of these lights and their meanings.... ie, it could mean anything or nothing.

So how dies this effect anything. Well, read the original thread vs JA Ryan SOM .... even the driving testers or instructors appear to be equally confused and they we hope and pray are "Professional"

To me a "real light" would have 6 lamps, not 4. The straight ahead would have 3 in a stack and the turning lane would have 3 arrows (or 2 arrows and a red circle) in a seperate stack. Therefore no confusion between the st ahead light and the turning light.


Now, I'll not argue that there are worse. The light sequences I saw in China when combined with the Chinese idea of driving was a certain recipie for disaster.
However, across the water in HK, the lights (and driving) were excellent.

Here is a book I'd recommend you read. "The design of Everyday Things" by Donald A Norman.

Even study the implementation of "First", "Next", "Previous", "Last" as they pertain to furums and e-mail systems, on-line lists, etc. Quiet a few interesting interpretations of those 4 words out there, check it out.

Anothing item you might ponder. This is a favorite excuse for un-civil servant types. "Everybody knows XXXXX". Once you hear those few words you can be sure the only one in the conversation that knows it is the person saying it.

mackerski

AMurphy wrote:

Is this type of signal layout used across EU.

It's common. Germany, at least, uses them. I recall France being fond of red arrows, but I can't say whether they use them in all cases where filters are in operation.

AMurphy wrote:

Now I find your answer interesting cause you say the it's perfectly safe and 100% understood, then go on to give all teh reasons it is not?.

You've got one out of three correct here. I claimed that they are safe, that they are clearly defined (not understood) and gave reasons why the only other way of signalling such a junction is (IMHO) worse. If you want to paraphrase me, try to paraphrase what I actually wrote.

AMurphy wrote:

eg. "a big splodge of red is far easier to see." directly above a green little arrow....So what do you see first? A big splodge of RED., but in reality the little green arrow may the important item to see. So we have the unimportant/unnecessary/not applicable lamp dominant in the display.

You reckon? You don't, for instance, consider that "stop unless otherwise advised" is a safer convention than "go unless you manage to spot a red arrow"? If drivers are going to fail, they may as well fail safe.

AMurphy wrote:

so as for "the meaning of these lights is 100% clearly defined". It may well be 100% defined. but is it "self defining".
You could say ":CTRL-ALT-DELEAT" is 100% defined, but is it self defined or intuitive, like the ON/OFF switch. Not at all.

I personally consider that a green arrow is self-defining. If a red splodge beat a green arrow, why would the green arrow be displayed in the first place. You'd need to be pretty dim not to realise that a green right-arrow gave you leave to turn right. More compellingly, you'd have to have invested even less than 10 minutes in reading the Rules Of The Road.

AMurphy wrote:

Then you add, "When you have a cluster with a mixture of arrows, some green, some red, I find it far harder to parse the overall meaning.".
That is what these lights are.... a mixture of arrows, some red and some green.

Red arrows? Are you sure? I've never seen any on Irish signals.

AMurphy wrote:

Now, we have to take the implementation. a few years ago, I came across two of these lights iwth green arrows to the Right, one in Dub and one in Lim and whether the oncoming traffic also had a green circle or choose to ignore a red, I'll never know, but the traffic certainly did not stop on the Green filter arrow to the right. Which might add to my suspicion of these lights and their meanings.... ie, it could mean anything or nothing.

Green filters have only one meaning - they convey right-of-way in the direction signalled. RTFM if you don't believe me. This is very basic stuff.

AMurphy wrote:

So how dies this effect anything. Well, read the original thread vs JA Ryan SOM .... even the driving testers or instructors appear to be equally confused and they we hope and pray are "Professional"

In this instance, what was at issue was "may you go right on a red with straight on filter?". Some quick observation on junctions that work like this will show you that plenty of drivers think wrongly that you may. It's inexcusable in a driver, but it's unbelievable in a driving tester.

AMurphy wrote:

To me a "real light" would have 6 lamps, not 4. The straight ahead would have 3 in a stack and the turning lane would have 3 arrows (or 2 arrows and a red circle) in a seperate stack. Therefore no confusion between the st ahead light and the turning light.

I see the potential for information overload with this approach, and you would still (if I understand you right) have the red splodge, to be overridden by any green filter that might be applicable. For the straight-on-only case, I suppose there's no harm in a red right-arrow to remind people, but there's no need at all. Start dishing out points for red light offences and see how quickly people learn the rules.

AMurphy wrote:

Anothing item you might ponder. This is a favorite excuse for un-civil servant types. "Everybody knows XXXXX". Once you hear those few words you can be sure the only one in the conversation that knows it is the person saying it.

I've long since given up on "everybody knows". In Ireland, it's guaranteed untrue. However, I'm quite big on "nobody has any excuse for not knowing".

Dermot