Breakthrough in Northern bank job?

A Dub in Glasgo

A signed statement to your solicitor presented to the police is hearsay? I would not have thought so. Some people do not have the confidence in the ability of the police to conduct themselves in an impartial manner and they will go down this route where it will be difficult for the police to try and 'trap' them.

Villain

Just incase people didn't hear what Adams said yesterday, he clarified that peoplewho witnessed this murder should come forward to the PSNI if they are comfortable with that or if not go to solictor etc.

People here have to understand that some people in the affected area do not see the PSNI as a respected police force and that is not SF's fault.

It seems like they arent coming foward even to solicitors though-and the family say thats because of intimidation.
I heard the family say they know who done it as do everyone else in the area.

Villain

I know Earthman but i really don't see what more SF can do?

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

Just incase people didn't hear what Adams said yesterday, he clarified that peoplewho witnessed this murder should come forward to the PSNI if they are comfortable with that or if not go to solictor etc.

People here have to understand that some people in the affected area do not see the PSNI as a respected police force and that is not SF's fault.

Who elses fault is it that the PSNI aren't regarded as "a respected police force" if not Sinn Fein / IRA's? Since day one Sinn Fein have done everything in their power to discredit the force.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

I know Earthman but i really don't see what more SF can do?

Stop killing people perhaps?

Johnny_the_fox

Sleepy wrote:

Since day one Sinn Fein have done everything in their power to discredit the force.

I suppose the raid at SF's offices at Stormont.. did boost SF's confidence in the force - didnt it ?

ishmael whale

Irish1 wrote:

People here have to understand that some people in the affected area do not see the PSNI as a respected police force and that is not SF's fault.

Mr McCartney’s family are quoted in the subscription part of Ireland.com as saying their perception is that witnesses are afraid to come forward more because of fear of IRA reprisals rather than unwillingness to deal with PSNI.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/0224/3663154434HM9SISTERS.html

“The sisters of Robert McCartney, the Belfast man allegedly murdered by members of the IRA, have said fear of the IRA was playing a bigger part in keeping witnesses silent in the case than any difficulties nationalists had with the PSNI, as had been cited by the Sinn Féin president, Mr Gerry Adams.”

Irish1 wrote:

i really don't see what more SF can do.

Many of us would say disband the IRA. But, more immediately, the family suggest expelling the relevant persons from the IRA and SF holding a public meeting.

However, that still leave the issue I have raised before. All Irish people are impacted if being a victim of a crime committed by an IRA member means your chance of justice is dependent on SF taking an interest in your case. Many of us would not have the energy and commitment to take on such a campaign.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgmDnEU9-Gq6Asg7IQHSmeYhNE.asp

“Mr McCartney’s family believes not enough has been done by the IRA and Sinn Féin to deliver the message to the streets of the Short Strand that witnesses can speak to investigators without fear of reprisal. Senior IRA members are suspected of being involved in beating and stabbing to death the father of two outside a south Belfast pub more than three weeks ago. Sinn Féin election workers and minders are also suspected of being involved.

While both the IRA and Sinn Féin have expressed support publicly for the McCartney family, his partner and five sisters believe this is at odds with what is happening in their home district of Short Strand.

The intimidation of witnesses continues while the “psychopaths” involved remain IRA members, the family said. They should be publicly expelled for a start, they said on a visit to Dublin during which they met Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern. …..

The McCartney family said Mr Adams had not been in touch with them and that the party’s justice spokesman, Gerry Kelly, refused to call a public meeting, which might have reassured potential witnesses.”

Squaletto

billy the squid wrote:

an editorial isnt supposed to be fact, it is supposed to be opinion. Its been that way since the first ever editorial.

Point taken. A lot of the Irish newspapers are just stating hearsay then because as of yet I haven't seen or heard one piece of concrete evidenceto show that SF were behind the heist in Belfast or the money laundering scam in the south. All hot air coming from the same group of so called professional journalists who are bent on slurring Sinn Fein and republicanism. As I have mentioned before this only serves to harden attitudes within the mainstrean republican parties i.e FF and only a few days ago a FF councillor from the peaceful city of Limerick actually called for Mc Doalltodestroy the peace process to resign. I'm sure that many FF voters are seeing their republican feelings under threat. Remember the majority of Irish people do have a place in their hearts for the noble aspirations of the founding fathers of the Irish state. This whole thing will go one way or the other for FF and I predict many FF voters calling for a separation between the PDs and FF in the next election. In fact I'm sure that during the by-elections in Meath and Kildare the FF candidates are being pushed on these matters. Sf can only sit back and smile as the republican mantle is slipping away from FF towards the SF crowd. If I were a FF voter (I'm not as I'm not an Irish citizen but married to one) I would be getting really pissed off about the PD link.

Sleepy

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

I suppose the raid at SF's offices at Stormont.. did boost SF's confidence in the force - didnt it ?

Well, given the parties ties to terrorism and criminality, I think it was a fair thing to do. A bit naieve maybe, I'd give SF/IRA more credit than to leave anything incriminating in their Stormont offices but the fact remains, Sinn Fein are part of a paramilitary organisation and quite definitely seem to be involved in criminal activities outside the scope of their "struggle".

bonkey

Sleepy wrote:

Stop killing people perhaps?

Given that you've just clarified as a fact that Sinn Fein is part of a paramilitary organisation (and not the other way round), I would like to hear your evidence that Sinn Fein - and not other parts of the larger organisation they belong to - have killed and are killing people.

If not, then consider that the same logic on a slightly different scale would allow you to blame anyone for anything:

....you are a member of the human race / a citizen of a given nation / a member of a cultural group....

....other members of the human race / that given nation / that cultural group have killed.

....Ergo, you are a killer, and should stop killing to improve the situation.

This is identical logic to what you presented, unless you can argue that Sinn Fein themselves have killed people.

There's enough emotion and hysteria running through these threads without adding to it with careless inaccuracies (assuming you can't support the implication that Sinn Fein have killed someone without contradicting the statement you just made about it being a fact that they are simply a part of a larger organisation)

jc

Calina

....only a few days ago a FF councillor from the peaceful city of Limerick actually called for Mc Doalltodestroy the peace process to resign. I'm sure that many FF voters are seeing their republican feelings under threat. .... If I were a FF voter (I'm not as I'm not an Irish citizen but married to one) I would be getting really pissed off about the PD link.

You are entitled to vote in the following elections if you are an EU citizen: European and local council (as opposed to parliament) elections and if you are not Irish, British or EU, you are entitled to vote in local council elections: info here. Not being Irish does not completely exclude you from voting. AFAIK, FF does not only run in Dail elections.

Limerick, by the way, is no more peaceful than Dublin, Cork, Galway, Waterford or Kilkenny and I would not necessarily take the reported comments of Noreen Ryan as a reflection of the views of every FF voter or member in the country.

Squaletto

I can't vote in Ireland as I am in Italy. Physically impossible. I would love to live in your country because at least there you can talk decent politics but my dear wife prefers here in sunny italia!

By the way I do not take for granted that the FF councillor from Limerick echoes all FF voters but I do think a considerable amount of FF supporters do not like the link with FF and the PDs and are only biding their time to shake off the ultra righwing coalition partner. They might not say it in public but the feeling is definitely there.

On the point of Limerick being more peaceful than other cities in Ireland I take your word for it and didn't mean to ruffle your feathers by using such an adjective. I can see how some might think I was being facetous but I wasn't actually. Sorry!

rubberduckey

Hi Squaletto, just read your post below.

"It seem that the people of Ireland are finally becoming weary of the disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media"


Speaking as an Irish person, I am far more weary of murder, intimidation and criminality than the behaviour of the Irish media. i am pretty sure that all the posters on this forum who care about our country but differ on their political viewpoints would agree.

billy the squid

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

That is correct. That evidence/statements will then be passed onto the police via those intermediaries. I see nothing wrong with this approach if the people are wary of the police intentions. Do you?

It is better for the statements to be brought via this route than not brought at all

i dont think "hear say" is admissable in a court of law.

all the witnesses have to do is turn up at a police station say i saw x y and z and wait for a court appearance, it is the course of action the family want. this should supercede any republican ideology.

Villain

Sleepy wrote:

Stop killing people perhaps?

Back that up or withdraw it.

billy the squid

Squaletto wrote:

billy the squid wrote:

an editorial isnt supposed to be fact, it is supposed to be opinion. Its been that way since the first ever editorial.

Point taken. A lot of the Irish newspapers are just stating hearsay then because as of yet I haven't seen or heard one piece of concrete evidenceto show that SF were behind the heist in Belfast or the money laundering scam in the south. All hot air coming from the same group of so called professional journalists who are bent on slurring Sinn Fein and republicanism. As I have mentioned before this only serves to harden attitudes within the mainstrean republican parties i.e FF and only a few days ago a FF councillor from the peaceful city of Limerick actually called for Mc Doalltodestroy the peace process to resign.

It wouldnt be the first time Noreen Ryan went against the Fianna Fail party, she has stormed out of more than one cummin in the last few years in protest of things she didnt agree with. Hot-headed is a word i would use for her.

As for how peaceful Limerick is, most of the guns involved in Limerick's feuds came from republicans up north.

Squaletto

padshea2 wrote:

Hi Squaletto, just read your post below.

"It seem that the people of Ireland are finally becoming weary of the disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media"


Speaking as an Irish person, I am far more weary of murder, intimidation and criminality than the behaviour of the Irish media. i am pretty sure that all the posters on this forum who care about our country but differ on their political viewpoints would agree.

Padshea2, I agree with you there and judging from your reply you seem to agree with me on the subject of disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media. I can't see how demonising a political enemy and throwing around unfounded facts help in any way to bring about peace in your country. In fact it only serves to do the opposite. In Hitlers Germany the nazis used that trick to dehumanise the Jewish people so as to make it perfectly normal and correct to treat jews badly. SF are trying to make a road into the political mainstream, why do so many people fear them? Saying that they are connected to the IRA isn't going to change a thing. Actually if anything I think it should be welcomed so that the SF heads can try and disband the IRA. Trying to get SF politicians to call their own people criminals is not going to happen. Why push an impossibility? Who benefits? Someday they will disband but I can tell you this a rat cornered is at its most dangerous so why do it. If you people are all so peace loving them why do you continue to allow the use of Shannon Airport by the American forces? Surely you are aware that the war in Iraq was illegal and you are all guilty in some small way to the misery and suffering heaped upon the innocent Iraqis! I would love if all murder criminality and intimidation ceased everywhere but maybe if some of you got on to your local TD and get him/her to call a motion against the use of Shannon might actually set an example to the IRA about the seriousness of the Irish people who feel so strongly about the injustice of muder, criminality and intimidation. On another point how can you people believe the intelligence given to the Irish Government by Orde when it has been proven that the same intelligence agencies lied through their teeth preceeding the illegal war in Iraq?

rubberduckey

"Padshea2, I agree with you there and judging from your reply you seem to agree with me on the subject of disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media"

Sorry, Squaletto but you misunderstood my post.

The Irish media do not disgust me in the same way that the issues that they report on(murder, intimidation and criminality) disgust me.

The rest of your post deviates into too many different topics for me to discuss in this forum.

billy the squid

http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Wed/rte-marianfinucane.smil

squaletto, lets see if this disgusts you, the most interesting part is the types of crimes that are mentioned the IRA are up to

you will probably need realplayer to listen to this

Squaletto

Hi King Billy!
Thanks for the link to that rte show. I must say that I am upset for that woman and her family. Really terrible and brutal crime. She did mention that Ira members killed that man but in that area are all in the IRA. I do not justify murder from anyone or any quarter but it would seem that at the moment many politicians and journalists (being agents of the same) are just concerned with trying to criminalise SF supporters with the Mc Cartney killers. In fact the family in question were avid supporters of SF before the tradegy. No violence like when it is between friends! Live by the sword....
It's my opinion that you are the very person who wouldn't give the Mc Cartneys time of the day had it not been for this incident. All your postings have been anti Sinn Fein and it is rich of you to cite this tragedy to try and get one up on a fellow poster in this forum. Shame on you: :mad:
Still it is horrific to see such horror in this day and age.

Squaletto

Hi Billy,
here is my idea of impartial unbiased reporting of facts unlike the trash Cusacked from Irish Times for exaggeration comes out with.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR450222004?open&of=ENG-GBR


Fact, Cusack, Harris have their own unchanged agenda to do as much damage to Peace Process as possible. It wouldn't be so bad if they could back up their spurious lies and rants but they don't. When will the time come when incitment to hatred will lead to the removal of unprofessional journalists from the Media in Ireland?

Any thoughts on that then?

Ciao for now!!!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

billy the squid

Hi Billy,
here is my idea of impartial unbiased reporting of facts unlike the trash Cusacked from Irish Times for exaggeration comes out with.

when have I posted anything from the Irish times. I dont even read it.

hanks for the link to that rte show. I must say that I am upset for that woman and her family. Really terrible and brutal crime. She did mention that Ira members killed that man but in that area are all in the IRA. I do not justify murder from anyone or any quarter but it would seem that at the moment many politicians and journalists (being agents of the same) are just concerned with trying to criminalise SF supporters with the Mc Cartney killers.

you didnt listen to the whole interview did you, come on tell the truth

protection rackets,"punnishment beatings" and rape were also mentioned on that program. and try to remember that it was not journalists saying this. it was members of the mc cartney family. that mentioned it.

In fact the family in question were avid supporters of SF before the tradegy. No violence like when it is between friends! Live by the sword....

it is still one of many criminal acts committed by members of the IRA

It's my opinion that you are the very person who wouldn't give the Mc Cartneys time of the day had it not been for this incident. All your postings have been anti Sinn Fein and it is rich of you to cite this tragedy

you don't know me very well then do you. I have loads of time for people who aspire to a 32 county ireland, i would love to see a 32 county ireland myself, but the reality is that it will not come about by the methods being used by sinn fein and the IRA. if the mccartney family want to vote for sinn fein then that is their own business.

oh and one question, why dont you use the propper names of people involved in this situation. you cant even use the propper names of the people your replying to now. this is not a playground you know.

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

....Ergo, you are a killer, and should stop killing to improve the situation.

This is identical logic to what you presented, unless you can argue that Sinn Fein themselves have killed people.
jc

In fairness to Sleepy, he has fallen fowl of the strict debating fact vs opinion definition here because it seems he believes what he said so strongly.
There are convicted bombers at the top of SF and people like sleepy are being asked to take their word that they are not still in the IRA... To be brutally frank its understandable that many would believe otherwise.
Couple that with the rousing reception released IRA prisoners get sometimes at SF Árd'Fhéiseanna and the many closed sessions at those AGM's pre ceasefires where according to journalists, the IRA campaign was being discussed, would you blame people for coming to such a conclusion?

Being technical then Sleepys "sin" here was to get carried away in the flow of what he believes without stating that it is his belief that what he is saying is a fact.He'd be in plentifull company.

irish1 wrote:

I know Earthman but i really don't see what more SF can do?

Well they could be as active as say in the Finnucane murder and call for an inquiry or they could in conjunction with the family hire a lawyer and visit some of the 70 or so people who were in the pub and take withness statements.
They could be pro active.

Squaletto

Hi again Billy, ok I take the point that I misuse names so as to wind up some of you but surely you can see it as a bit of poetic licence rather than anything insulting or offensive. I thought the Irish had a sense of Humour!! But if my antics have offended then I do apologise to all concerned.

Anyway back to the last post by Billy. I did listen to the whole thing on that show and I totally disagree with hoods posing as freedom fighters etc and I honestly feel for the Mc Cartneys. I also feel for the Nelson family and the Finnucane family as I do for the victims of all violence. My point is this, violence from any quarter is wrong and nobody can justify it under any circumstance. It is just wrong. I don't believe in armies for example but do concede that they are a necessary evil if for nothing else the defence of people under attack from agression etc. I still don't like the fact they exist though but we don't live in a perfect worlld.
A lot of people have been going on about the Mc Carneys in Belfast and the terrible situation they find themselves in but I think we can also turn our attention to the murder of Brian Murphy. Are the IRA and SF also guilty here for the lack of witnesses coming forward to give evidence against the middle class FF and FG supporters who attended Annabels nightclub on that particular night. Are we to call those FF/FG and PD supporters criminals for the moral cowardice they are showing. It's the same situation as the short Strand only in this case the justice system including Gardai bungling is so favourable to those who happen to go to a GOOD school. If someone from Ballyfermot or Ballymun were to steal a banana they'd be straight to gaol without as much as a whimper, except maybe a few journalists who would call them SF/IRA criminals.
I wish to see the law applied equally to all and less interference from a biased press which only serves to antagonise an already dangerous situation.
I am not a SF supporter in case any of you assume so.
Ciao

Squaletto

Squaletto wrote:

A lot of people have been going on about the Mc Carneys in Belfast and the terrible situation they find themselves in but I think we can also turn our attention to the murder of Brian Murphy. Are the IRA and SF also guilty here for the lack of witnesses coming forward to give evidence against the middle class FF and FG supporters who attended Annabels nightclub on that particular night. Are we to call those FF/FG and PD supporters criminals for the moral cowardice they are showing. It's the same situation as the short Strand only in this case the justice system including Gardai bungling is so favourable to those who happen to go to a GOOD school. If someone from Ballyfermot or Ballymun were to steal a banana they'd be straight to gaol without as much as a whimper, except maybe a few journalists who would call them SF/IRA criminals.

Thats right the Murphy's family have been on about widespread intimidation by FF and FG to stop withnesses coming foward :rolleyes:
It's exactly the same situation of course it is , no one trusts the Gardaí in Dublin either, they're waiting until Patten is implimented in full :rolleyes:
There will be no trusted police force in Dublin untill there is at least a 50% representation from Ballyfermot..
Oh its all so similar :rolleyes:

Sleepy

bonkey wrote:

Given that you've just clarified as a fact that Sinn Fein is part of a paramilitary organisation (and not the other way round), I would like to hear your evidence that Sinn Fein - and not other parts of the larger organisation they belong to - have killed and are killing people.

If not, then consider that the same logic on a slightly different scale would allow you to blame anyone for anything:

....you are a member of the human race / a citizen of a given nation / a member of a cultural group....

....other members of the human race / that given nation / that cultural group have killed.

....Ergo, you are a killer, and should stop killing to improve the situation.

This is identical logic to what you presented, unless you can argue that Sinn Fein themselves have killed people.

There's enough emotion and hysteria running through these threads without adding to it with careless inaccuracies (assuming you can't support the implication that Sinn Fein have killed someone without contradicting the statement you just made about it being a fact that they are simply a part of a larger organisation)

jc

That is some of the most nonsensical crap I've ever had the mispleasure of reading. The IRA and Sinn Fein, are almost certainly one and the same organisation. Sure, there are some people who naievely believe that by being members of Sinn Fein they're involved with a completely seperate entity but when you look at the key players in Sinn Fein, all have been convicted of IRA crimes (and/or membership) or are known to be involved at high levels of the less acceptable face of the organisation.

Earthman is right in what he says: I will not trust the word of Sinn Fein/IRA whilst they continue to carry out murders, punishment beatings and other criminal acts. Respect and trust are two commodities that must be earned and Sinn Fein / IRA have done nothing in my eyes to earn it (neither, I must add, have any of the unionist terrorists or the Paisley's No brigade).

Squaletto

Earthman wrote:

Thats right the Murphy's family have been on about widespread intimidation by FF and FG to stop withnesses coming foward :rolleyes:
It's exactly the same situation of course it is , no one trusts the Gardaí in Dublin either, they're waiting until Patten is implimented in full :rolleyes:
There will be no trusted police force in Dublin untill there is at least a 50% representation from Ballyfermot..
Oh its all so similar :rolleyes:

Not exactly correct there Earthman, the Murphy family have been going on about the injustice of it all and the fact that the system seems to favour one part of society over annother. I still say the situation is the same in the sense that murder was committed by thugs and in both cases the local community is protecting the thugs that committed the crime. How do you see it as any different, maybe your tunnel vision is affecting your judgement. Regarding intimidation in the Murphy case I agree there is no evidence to back that up and anyway I never suggested that in the first place. You made that link! Re Gardai: A lot of people in parts of Dublin do have suspicions about the Gardai especially after the episode up in Donegal, the way they swept the Dublin bombing investigation under the proverbial carpet etc. If you are in any doubt then you should have listened to Mrs Murphy when she talked about the justice system in Ireland on Prime Time last night. If you missed the programme then you can listen to part of it on the Pat Kenny show (today's show) on RTE, rte-todaywithpatkenny.smil. The leafy subburbs of south Dublin without the threat of intimidation by hoods and thugs still remain silent when it comes to giving evidence which would lead to a conviction. The fact of the matter is that the leafy suburbs are places where politicians from FF, FG and the PDs reap most of their support. Criminals all? I arrest my case!

Sleepy

I think in large part the reason there was no reliable evidence regarding the killers of Brian Murphy would have something to do with the environment in which it occured: outside a nightclub which caters to a demographic that drink themselves stupid to the point where their memories of the events would be extremely unreliable. Also, the legal necessity to determine exactly who killed the poor lad (as forced by an extremely capable legal defence team) made it tantamount to impossible to prove a manslaughter case.