Breakthrough in Northern bank job?

AmenToThat

swiss wrote:

Yes, this is a serious turn of events, but if anyone seriously expects everyone to turn around and point the finger at the PSNI,

Why not?
They have pointed the finger at Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness whithout any of the cash being found in their possesion or a shredd of evidence being produced so in the context of the accusations that have been bandied about on this thread so far it seems perfectly reasonable to point the finger at the PSNI.

billy the squid

irish1 wrote:

*NEWSFLASH*

The money found in Belfast country club used primarily by former and serving police officers has been confirmed to have come from the Northern Bank Robbery!!!!.

a pretty misleading statement considering you neglected to mention which part of the country club the money was found in, was it found in one of the toilet cubicles or was it found in the cash register? I think it was found in the former which could have been put there by either one of the general public or one of the janitory staff/contractor anybody.

the IRA and sinn fein apologists would want to start practicing

Time Magazine

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Speaking purely about the monetary aspect, it reminded me of someone who said that you're not taking anyone's money if you commit tax fraud.

Sorry it took so long to reply, but it really pisses me off when Shinners try to justify their position by liking it to something completely unrelated and alluding to something that I didn't make any comment about.

E.g. Me: "How do you justify murdering a Republican by-stander in a bank raid and taking 24 years to apologise for it?"
Shinner: "How do you justify Hiroshima?"

Oh and btw, tax fraud is taking someone's money; the marginal recipient of State payments.

Time Magazine

AmenToThat wrote:

Yep those nasty Republicans must be at it again.
Because Irish politicians, the gardai and the British security services/PSNI/RUC have never used dirty tricks..............

Sorry it took so long to reply, but it really pisses me off when Shinners try to justify their position by liking it to something completely unrelated and alluding to something that I didn't make any comment about.

Time Magazine

*puts on the voice of a shady PSNI officer*
Right lads, we've knicked this money either during the bank raid or during the searches of homes immediately thereafter. We've now realised what we'vr done is dangerous and so we have to get rid of it somewhere. I know just the place, a place where no-one will ever find it, a place that nobody will ever link us to, a place that will completely clear us of any suspicion of the robbery...

The jacks. :rolleyes:.

AmenToThat

Angry Banana wrote:

*puts on the voice of a shady PSNI officer*
Right lads, we've knicked this money either during the bank raid or during the searches of homes immediately thereafter. We've now realised what we'vr done is dangerous and so we have to get rid of it somewhere. I know just the place, a place where no-one will ever find it, a place that nobody will ever link us to, a place that will completely clear us of any suspicion of the robbery...

The jacks. :rolleyes:.

Your use of cynicism is really rather tellling.
On friday this story was the answer to every 'SF basher' out there's prayers.
Now though the worm has turned.

The PSNI have been implicated (BTW Im not saying they committed the robbery Im saying they were probably bribed to look the other way while it was in progress and now that the games up why the hell shouldnt they be implicated for their role in it?).
Only one current SF (two tops) activist have been implicated and the CAB/Gardai are going after solicitors, bankers and accounting firms whom you can be sure will have far more links (eg political donations, friends of politicians and maybe some local counsellors) with the PD'S and FF than S F.

Guarantee you that by the time the money laundering trail has been fully investigated by the CAB (assuming they do when they start to realize whom its leading them to) that FF, FG and PD's are going to have more questions to answer than SF.

ArthurDent

Latest news this morning:

From Sunday Business post

Gardaí raid retirement home in Mullingar

It is being reported that officers from the Criminal Assets Bureau have raided a retirement home near Tullamore, Co Offaly, this morning.

The premises are believed to be partly owned by Ted Cunningham, from whose house £2.3m (€3.3m) was seized last Thursday.

Cunningham was released by the Gardaí this afternoon but a file is expected to be prepared for the Director of Public Prosecutions.

The 57-year-old businessman is thought to be a director of at least nine companies, all of which will be investigated by the Gardaí as part of this ongoing operation.


http://www.thepost.ie/breakingnews/breaking_story.asp?j=134231074&p=y34z3y78x&n=134231834&x=

A Dub in Glasgo

Angry Banana wrote:

Sorry it took so long to reply, but it really pisses me off when Shinners try to justify their position by liking it to something completely unrelated and alluding to something that I didn't make any comment about.

And who is trying to justify something? You posted some unrelated hear-say, I posted one of my own to show that any old hear-say can be posted to an internet forum.

E.g. Me: "How do you justify murdering a Republican by-stander in a bank raid and taking 24 years to apologise for it?"
Shinner: "How do you justify Hiroshima?"

Well, how do you justify Hiroshima?

Oh and btw, tax fraud is taking someone's money; the marginal recipient of State payments.

I am well aware of that, maybe you should let some of the movers and shakers in society know

pork99

cdebru wrote:

I thin k you may be jumping ahead of yourself nothing that we know so far is definitely connected to sinn fein

the only person charged is apparently charged with membership of the real IRA now it does not make sense that a member of the real IRA would be laundering money or handling money that was for Sinn Fein or the PIRA in fact it stands logic on its head

Do you really think we are that f-ing stupid?

The Northern Bank robbery and the smashing of an IRA money-laundering racket in the Irish Republic a few days ago demonstrate beyond doubt that the continued existence of the republican movement's armed wing has become a millstone around the neck of the Sinn Fein leadership. Why, then, do Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness still need an IRA? They are, after all, and this is a matter of record, senior members of that organisation's ruling body, the Army Council. The answer is simple: the IRA funds the republican movement. As well as being able to impose military discipline on members who also belong to Sinn Fein, the IRA can raise millions of pounds through robberies, smuggling, extortion, blackmail. This war chest funds Sinn Fein's electoral machine.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,6903,1418482,00.html

A vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for a criminal conspiracy to undermine democracy and the rule of law in this country, the Republic of Ireland.

Cork

pork99 wrote:

Do you really think we are that f-ing stupid?



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,6903,1418482,00.html

A vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for a criminal conspiracy to undermine democracy and the rule of law in this country, the Republic of Ireland.

Michael McDowell has named the likes of McGuinness, Adams and Ferris as being involved in the IRA today on Today FM.

If he is incorrect - let these individuals sue.

SF are still in deniel about IRA criminality.

I think that it is about time the democratic partys north and south take ownership of the peace process.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

Michael McDowell has named the likes of McGuinness, Adams and Ferris as being involved in the IRA today on Today FM.

If he is incorrect - let these individuals sue.

SF are still in deniel about IRA criminality.

I think that it is about time the democratic partys north and south take ownership of the peace process.

how many times does this have to be explained
it is not slander even if it is untrue unless your reputation has been diminished amongst your peers

cdebru

pork99 wrote:

Do you really think we are that f-ing stupid?



http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,6903,1418482,00.html

A vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for a criminal conspiracy to undermine democracy and the rule of law in this country, the Republic of Ireland.

tell me how it would make sense to use a member of a rival organisation that they have killed members of to move their money

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

tell me how it would make sense to use a member of a rival organisation that they have killed members of to move their money

I dunno cdebru...
Clever people do clever things.
It would seem to me that someone directing the IRA would think that using someone associated with CIRA or RIRA would be perfect cover.

The person would be CIRA or RIRA in name only if you catch my drift.

SkepticOne

cdebru wrote:

how many times does this have to be explained
it is not slander even if it is untrue unless your reputation has been diminished amongst your peers

It is quite clever on the part of McDowell. He as called them what many would regard as criminals and scumbags and Adams can't do a thing about it.

Villain

Yea but McDowell doesn't have the balls to present that evidence to the commisioner and reccomend they be arrested. Talk is cheap especially when it comes to the PD's.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses, but I think McDowell should keep his trap shut until the investigations are finished and the DPP has decided what course of action to take.

Cork

SkepticOne wrote:

It is quite clever on the part of McDowell. He as called them what many would regard as criminals and scumbags and Adams can't do a thing about it.

He could legitimise SF. He could get try and get the IRA to fold up tent.

It is about time Adams set himself a little test.

That is either he shuts up or puts up. His constant whining about FF, FG, Labour, SDLP, Michael McDowell, Hugh Orde, etc is tiresome.

Itis about time he focused his attentions on IRA criminality.

He is still in deniel. Oblivious or foolish only time will tell.

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

tell me how it would make sense to use a member of a rival organisation that they have killed members of to move their money

money talks and bull**** walks to be honest.

SkepticOne

irish1 wrote:

Yea but McDowell doesn't have the balls to present that evidence to the commisioner and reccomend they be arrested.

He doesn't need to do this for his political purposes. All he needs to do is call them criminals and let them defend themselves if they wish. The public will then decide.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Yea but McDowell doesn't have the balls to present that evidence to the commisioner and reccomend they be arrested. Talk is cheap especially when it comes to the PD's.

THe IRA are a criminal organisation.

Senior SF figures have had leadership roles of the IRA.

Michael McDowell was right to state the truth. The government should now focus on the Peace Process.

It will be up to the authoritis of this state to investigate IRA criminals.

ishmael whale

irish1 wrote:

Yea but McDowell doesn't have the balls to present that evidence to the commisioner and reccomend they be arrested.

I thought that the Government position was that they had formulated their opinions on the basis of Garda intelligence, rather than the other way round.

In any case, the Minister for Justice has no role in the decision to prosecute. Unlike Sinn Fein/IRA, there is a clear division of responsibilities. Equally unlike Sinn Fein, the decision to prosecute has to do with an evaluation of evidence by the DPP rather than whether your case is creating such a political stink that it can't be ignored.

Sand

As far as I know the Cork man who was charged with membership of an illegal organisation is accused of being a member of the IRA, not the RIRA. And the cash found in the public toliets of a sports club used by PSNI officers was from the NIB raid, but was described as essentially useless because its so easily traceable. Its not credible to belive the PSNI go around hiding money in public toliets - its far more credible its a decoy or a plant to give SF/IRA something to sieze on to reverse all the bad news.

And more uncomftably for the SF/IRA crew is that the man who was arrested after reports of him burning sterling was found with ammunition *and* apparently 10,000 to 15,000 worth of cocaine - according to the Irish Times anyway. Thats far beyond personal use.

And more oddly, the three men who were arrested at Heuston in Dublin - The Gardai found some powdered substance on the floor of the jeep they were arrested in that they are sending away to be forensically identified. If it is identified as being the remnants of an amount of drugs+cash transfer things could get even worse for SF/IRA.

I think SF/IRAs strategy of capitalising on the publics widespread disatisfaction the appearance of sleaze and corruption in mainstream politics might not be as effective when the public get a clear idea of what SF/IRA have been up to whilst preaching from their high horse.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

I dunno cdebru...
Clever people do clever things.
It would seem to me that someone directing the IRA would think that using someone associated with CIRA or RIRA would be perfect cover.

The person would be CIRA or RIRA in name only if you catch my drift.

why did they not get the UVF or the UDA to carry the money for them then

I am not saying the PIRA were not involved honestly I still dont know

what seems very strange is that the PIRA would be using a RIRA member if that is what he is to carry money for them


the possibility that perhaps the PIRA leadership is no longer in real control of its membership seems a real possibility to me
the murder of robert mccartney and the intimidation of witnesses is an absolute disaster for republicanism
it seems that the IRA Leadership were unable to control these people the involvement of someone from outside the ranks of the provisional IRA suggests to me that this was not a PIRA operation because anyone with their head screwed on the right way knows that the real IRA is riddled with informers if a RIRA member farts the gardai and psni know about it before he smells it himself

I can not believe that the PIRA would seriuously use anyone associated with the real IRA in a serious attempt to launder the money

which of course leaves the other possibility that the PIRA were trying to spread the guilt around and were framing the RIRA to pass the blame or muddy the waters

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

why did they not get the UVF or the UDA to carry the money for them then

I'll play devil's advocate if you really think that question needs an answer.

Firstly he's saying that it wouldn't really be the RIRA or CIRA carrying the money, it'd be a guy who says he's a member of one of the two or hangs with one of the two but is really one of the PIRA boys. Secondly, it's a bit difficult for some of us to believe the idea of a PIRA bucko defecting to the UVF and would equally be as difficult for the police or indeed the UVF to believe that, which would make the idea impractical if not plain dumb if they'd even thought about using that as an attention-deflecting measure.

cdebru

Sand wrote:

As far as I know the Cork man who was charged with membership of an illegal organisation is accused of being a member of the IRA, not the RIRA. And the cash found in the public toliets of a sports club used by PSNI officers was from the NIB raid, but was described as essentially useless because its so easily traceable. Its not credible to belive the PSNI go around hiding money in public toliets - its far more credible its a decoy or a plant to give SF/IRA something to sieze on to reverse all the bad news.

And more uncomftably for the SF/IRA crew is that the man who was arrested after reports of him burning sterling was found with ammunition *and* apparently 10,000 to 15,000 worth of cocaine - according to the Irish Times anyway. Thats far beyond personal use.

And more oddly, the three men who were arrested at Heuston in Dublin - The Gardai found some powdered substance on the floor of the jeep they were arrested in that they are sending away to be forensically identified. If it is identified as being the remnants of an amount of drugs+cash transfer things could get even worse for SF/IRA.

I think SF/IRAs strategy of capitalising on the publics widespread disatisfaction the appearance of sleaze and corruption in mainstream politics might not be as effective when the public get a clear idea of what SF/IRA have been up to whilst preaching from their high horse.

here is a link to RTE were it is clearly stated that he is suspected of membership of the REAL IRA
anyone charged is charged with membership of an illegal organisation styling itself oglaigh na eireann or the IRA
it is a standard charge regardless of PIRA CIRA RIRA as they all regard themselves as "THE" IRA
the cash in the tiolets is an obvious decoy

my point is if it was the PIRA who stole the money then there is no way they would use the RIRA or anyone associated with the RIRA as they are riddled with informers

so either it was the RIRA that stole the money or this is unrelated to the northern bank robbery or to the PIRA

or it was another decoy and the PIRA was setting up the RIRA

cdebru

sceptre wrote:

I'll play devil's advocate if you really think that question needs an answer.

Firstly he's saying that it wouldn't really be the RIRA or CIRA carrying the money, it'd be a guy who says he's a member of one of the two or hangs with one of the two but is really one of the PIRA boys. Secondly, it's a bit difficult for some of us to believe the idea of a PIRA bucko defecting to the UVF and would equally be as difficult for the police or indeed the UVF to believe that, which would make the idea impractical if not plain dumb if they'd even thought about using that as an attention-deflecting measure.

my point exactly it would be as likely that the PIRA would use the UVF as it would be that they would use the RIRA

the gardai say he is in the RIRA not himself

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

the gardai say he is in the RIRA not himself

maybe the pira hoodwinked the Gardaí into thinking he's in RIRA just like they *cough* perhaps dropped a few useless new northern notes off at the psni social club.

PIRA might be clever enough like that

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

my point exactly it would be as likely that the PIRA would use the UVF as it would be that they would use the RIRA

the gardai say he is in the RIRA not himself

its not unusual for rival criminal gangs to join forces for financial gain. it happened here in limerick resulting in the feuds.

true

Exactly Earthman, a good point.

Either way it seems almost 100% certain it was republicans who are to blame for the robbery.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

maybe the pira hoodwinked the Gardaí into thinking he's in RIRA just like they *cough* perhaps dropped a few useless new northern notes off at the psni social club.

PIRA might be clever enough like that

hang on you people cant have it every way

one minute the gardai know everything including who is on the army council who robbed the bank etc
next minute they are being hoodwinked by the PIRA into believing that he is a RIRA member

the simple fact is that his alledged membership of the RIRA does not stack up with a legitimate attempt by the provos to launder the money

it simply does not add up

in my view it is one of the following
1 it was not the provos at all
2 it was the provos and they were setting up the clowns in the RIRA
3 it was a group of current or former members of the provos acting outside the authority of the leadership of the provos perhaps with other dissidents

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

my point exactly it would be as likely that the PIRA would use the UVF as it would be that they would use the RIRA

Well, no, not as likely at all, by a long shot. If you go back and read my post I was offering an opinion as to why the PIRA would be far more likely to use a real or pretend RIRA member rather than go near a real or imagined UVF member. It's all there in the post, go look.