Breakthrough in Northern bank job?

Sleepy

And what happens then? If Adams, McGuinness and Ferris are arrested and charged (quite legitimately), the rest of the IRA will go back to violence. Personally, I think that if this happens, it's time to let the Irish Rangers prove themselves on our own soil and I'd be largely in favour of this course of action. I'm in the minority on this though. The majority of the Irish people would be too afraid to take this course of action and would rather see these criminals walk the streets if it'll keep the provos at bay.

toiletduck

Sleepy wrote:

And what happens then? If Adams, McGuinness and Ferris are arrested and charged (quite legitimately), the rest of the IRA will go back to violence. Personally, I think that if this happens, it's time to let the Irish Rangers prove themselves on our own soil and I'd be largely in favour of this course of action. I'm in the minority on this though. The majority of the Irish people would be too afraid to take this course of action and would rather see these criminals walk the streets if it'll keep the provos at bay.

I agree, i say its about time that we sorted out the threat posed to this state by the IRA once and for all. I along with many other law abiding citizens are sick and tired of the old "if we dont keep them (the IRA) in the peace process, the might go back to violence i.e. murdering ordinary people." I say bring it on, let the full force of the state (the gardai, army, C.A.B. etc) end the threat once and for all.

oscarBravo

Squaletto wrote:

This 'clutching at straws' thing is quite fashionable these last few days alright!

It certainly is. Let's see:

Squaletto wrote:

First there was the huge criminal SF money racket in Cork which gripped the country to no end only to fizzle out to nothing really. The SF guy was released and the only charges brought against anybody was a Real IRA guy and a box of Daz.

Bring me up to speed here: how many of the major money-laundering cases that have been brought in this country have involved dramatic arrests and prompt charges? How many have involved the seizure of documents, the careful forensic examination of such documents over a period of time, and the subsequent arrest and conviction of those involved?

Squaletto wrote:

As i mentioned in an earlier thread the Gardai are no angels. If anybody wants proof, call super Gardai Lennon up Donegal way or better again check out Dick Spring down Kerry way for info on arrest of political opponent days away from an election in the area!

It's sadly true that there are corrupt members of an Garda Siochána. Should we use this as a reason to doubt their every action? Are we to happily accept the word of that paragon of virtue, P. O'Neill? He's never lied to us about IRA involvement in robberies, has he?

Squaletto wrote:

One doesn't have to be trusting of the words from any state body even if that body is independent or not. Isn't it a coincidence that during a week when the Health minister of the Irish Republic came under serious pressure to backtrack from illegal actions taken to legalise an illegal and in many ways criminal motion in the Dail where money was stolen from the most needy and vunerable in the Republic' that all this SF target practice took place?

Yes, it is. Unless, of course, you've evidence to the contrary. Until you produce it, I'll keep shaving with Occam's razor.

Squaletto wrote:

How many people will attack Harney the Heartless Harlot or whatever its name is for its actions?

I don't think you'll find a shortage. Her name is Mary Harney, by the way.

Squaletto wrote:

Those who do will face the usual barrage of abuse such as Shinner or Provo

How many people have called Enda Kenny or Pat Rabbitte Shinners or Provos?

Squaletto wrote:

...or other rather silly names given to the people who stand up and face the responsibilities all Irish people have i.e. put aside the BS and do something about the unification of the country.

Hell, nobody told me that was my responsibility. I must have skipped over that part of my Irish Citizen's User Manual.

Squaletto wrote:

It simply isn't fair to denounce the sizable amount of people on the island of Ireland who vote SF.

I wouldn't so much denounce them as wonder what the hell they're thinking about when they do it.

SkepticOne

true wrote:

I do not think the PDs are worried about their seats. They are thinking about the bigger picture of what happens to our thriving democracy when a gang of "gentlemen" with bombs and guns, and expertise in terrorism, crime and bank-robbing etc, start taking over things. Look at how they are destroying democracy up North : 70 witnesses to a brutal murder too intimidated by republicans to speak out. Time to wake up boys.

I think the PDs are simply worried about SF gaining respectability to the extent that they form a coalition with FF some time in the future. It might seem strange now, but the public memory is fickle. What would the PDs be without coalition with FF?

Lemming

tbh ......

For all those saying "ooo look this involves respectable business men" etc and goes deeper than SF/IRA think about this:

How do you suggest that a monetary amount of that size gets fenced? And everybody knows that the IRA are about the only group on this island with the ability to do that.

That businesses around teh country are getting raided doesn't surprise me, and only says "very organised fencing operation has been broken" which smacks of IRA involvement since it's *that* extensive.

As for Bertie - he's doing the old "I'm everyone's friend" routine and god is the guy a muppet. I wish he'd just pick a side for once.

ionapaul

Squaletto wrote:

Those who do will face the usual barrage of abuse such as Shinner or Provo or other rather silly names given to the people who stand up and face the responsibilities all Irish people have i.e. put aside the BS and do something about the unification of the country.

What responsibility?

Squaletto wrote:

It simply isn't fair to denounce the sizable amount of people on the island of Ireland who vote SF.

It mightn't be fair to point out people's mistakes, but it certainly can be satisfying. SF's core support won't be touched, but the middle-class idiots who voted for them last year (Mary Lou and all) must feel fairly stupid at the moment...

Squaletto

It mightn't be fair to point out people's mistakes, but it certainly can be satisfying. [/QUOTE]
If any of you guys agree with the above, read this! http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1419042,00.html

billy the squid

Squaletto wrote:

This 'clutching at straws' thing is quite fashionable these last few days alright! Just listen to the radio and Irish media! First there was the huge criminal SF money racket in Cork which gripped the country to no end only to fizzle out to nothing really.

I wouldnt call the fact that more money turned up in places like dublin, offily and the north nothing.

The SF guy was released and the only charges brought against anybody was a Real IRA guy and a box of Daz.

I don't think it is common practice to charge someone before a file is sent to the Director of Public Proscecutions. We will have to wait until they make a decision before you can claim that it has all gone away.

As i mentioned in an earlier thread the Gardai are no angels. If anybody wants proof, call super Gardai Lennon up Donegal way or better again check out Dick Spring down Kerry way for info on arrest of political opponent days away from an election in the area! One doesn't have to be trusting of the words from any state body even if that body is independent or not. Isn't it a coincidence that during a week when the Health minister of the Irish Republic came under serious pressure to backtrack from illegal actions taken to legalise an illegal and in many ways criminal motion in the Dail where money was stolen from the most needy and vunerable in the Republic' that all this SF target practice took place?

The justice minister has been screaming from the rooftops about IRA criminality for months, long before the story regarding the health ministers problems with regard to taking money from the elderly.

Oh and a point of order here, Mary harney didnt have to change her plans because of public pressure, she had to change her plans because a supreme court judge said it was unconstitutional. She can still go ahead with her plans, she just cant keep any money gained in the past.

How many people will attack Harney the Heartless Harlot or whatever its name is for its actions?

Feel free to start a thread about it. to bring up this topic in a thread about a totally different issue just demonstrates the sinn fein supporters efforts to divert attention from themselves when they are in a spot of bother.

Those who do will face the usual barrage of abuse such as Shinner or Provo or other rather silly names given to the people who stand up and face the responsibilities all Irish people have i.e. put aside the BS and do something about the unification of the country.

Ah yes those stallworths of republicanism like the INLA and RIRA who sell guns to rival gangs in Limerick.

Oh and seeing as you mentioned mary harney stealing money from old people, the money the IRA tried to steal in adare was destined for old age pensioners. Ironic that you should mention Mary Harney when the IRA have that llittle episode in their history.

It simply isn't fair to denounce the sizable amount of people on the island of Ireland who vote SF. Those people have the same right to aspire for a united Ireland with a fair and trusting police force, where their culture is respected and not thought of as the ignornant working classes voting for the hardmen in their communities, as the likes of De Valera or even Mc Dodiddler's grandfather O'Neill of the Irish Volunteers had back in the bad old days of fighting for Independence using Terrorist means.

Sinn fein can aspire to what it likes, as long as it doesnt cause physical pain injury or death through its "millitary wing" the IRA.

cdebru

bertie has said neither he nor the minister for justice know who is on the IRA army council

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0221/moneylaundering.html

a smack on the wrist for mcdowell i think

ishmael whale

What the link you have supplied says is:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0221/moneylaundering.html

“The Taoiseach has said neither he nor the Minister for Justice had 'personal knowledge' of who was on the IRA Army Council. Asked about Michael McDowell's assertion that Sinn Féin's Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and Martin Ferris were members of the Army Council, Mr Ahern said Mr McDowell had access to intelligence briefings, but that hard evidence was another matter…..”

Which I take it to mean that he’s saying that he takes McDowell’s comments to be based on Garda intelligence of a lesser quality than would stand up as evidence in a criminal court. Which makes demands for McDowell to provide his information to the Garda a little circular, as they are his source in the first place.

The rest of us have to make do with Ed Moloney’s book, used as the source for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA_army_council

As the wikipedia entry says, “The IRA is a secret organization. Consequently, facts about the make-up of its upper echelons are hard to come by.” What exactly do people expect as proof? A framed scroll signed by Uachtarán na hÉireann?

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0221/moneylaundering.html

a smack on the wrist for mcdowell i think

Dont think so.
Read it again.
It's typical Bertiespeak...

'personal knowledge'

Shur that could mean anything...
He goes on to say that he saw the inteligence on the Northern Bank jobs but not on membership of the army council

He added that he did not have the 'professional assessment' of the gardaí on the matter, as he had on the Northern Bank robbery.

Couple that with

Mr Ahern said Mr McDowell had access to intelligence briefings, but that hard evidence was another matter.

In other words in typical Bertie speak he's saying he's satisfied with the Garda file on who did the robbery but that he hasnt seen the file on who is likely to be on the IRA council but that McDowell has...

His comment on Hard evidence suggests that he's aware who is meeting who and what the Gardaí think they are discussing but doesn't have it for certain that they are meeting in an IRA capacity.

As I say typical Bertiespeak as he has a limit on how far he is personally going to go (in my view) with his annoyance on this matter.
He wants to leave the door open to get back talking to SF again and rightly so.
Thus he uses his very good diplomatic skills and his Bertiespeak.

Slap on the wrist - definitely not

cdebru

it is bertie backing up abit and making space

if he backs Mc dowell and says yes he is right

hard to continue in talks with the leadership of the IRA

the fact is that mcdowell has put the governmnet in a bit of a tight spot
how can they continue negoiating with what mc dowell says is the leadership of a criminal gang

Sand

the fact is that mcdowell has put the governmnet in a bit of a tight spot
how can they continue negoiating with what mc dowell says is the leadership of a criminal gang

Well, theyve been doing it for the past 10 years. The people involved havent changed. The rules were bent for SF/IRA to allow the talks in the interest of the greater good. Rather than responding positively to that, SF/IRA have selfishly exploited peoples willingness to help them adjust to constitutional politics. Now the goodwill has dried up and questions are being asked of SF/IRA.

Like, how can such a small party afford to have more paid employees as all the other parties in the Republic put together? The CAB and the PSNI will be trying to answer that question over the next few months.

Squaletto

billy the squid wrote:

I wouldnt call the fact that more money turned up in places like dublin, offily and the north nothing.

It is nothing to do with SF until the saintly agents of Mc Dodall or whatever his name is pin something on them, therefore put up or..........!

I don't think it is common practice to charge someone before a file is sent to the Director of Public Proscecutions. We will have to wait until they make a decision before you can claim that it has all gone away
Oh I get it now, first smear the innocents with unfounded lies and then hope the proof appears out of thin air. Maybe that's why Hugely unOrderly
came down to give lessons to Gardai on how to successfully find an innocent person guilty today! The Police in the north are experts at it!!!!

The justice minister has been screaming from the rooftops about IRA criminality for months, long before the story regarding the health ministers problems with regard to taking money from the elderly.
Why doesn't he present the evidence then? Is it because he might think that we can't make up our own minds once given the chance to? In my world all suspects are innocent until proven guilty, it simply doesn't wash relying on the word of a bitter man regardless of his position in society. Mc doddery is guilty of abusing his position as we all know how he feels about Irishmen who aspire to the nobel notion of a united Ireland through republicanism!

Oh and a point of order here, Mary harney didnt have to change her plans because of public pressure, she had to change her plans because a supreme court judge said it was unconstitutional. She can still go ahead with her plans, she just cant keep any money gained in the past.
Thank you for pointing that out to me but it still doesn't seem right that she even tried to pull off that scam! Two wrongs don' make a...........!


Feel free to start a thread about it. to bring up this topic in a thread about a totally different issue just demonstrates the sinn fein supporters efforts to divert attention from themselves when they are in a spot of bother.

If you are painting me with the SF brush then say it. You are wrong, why is it that when a person disagrees with the hypocritical corrupt political parties (the same used terror in the past to further their aims) people automatically call you a shinner?

Ah yes those stallworths of republicanism like the INLA and RIRA who sell guns to rival gangs in Limerick.
Since when are the INLA and RIRA the political arm of SF. Have I missed something or have you, either way it's best you clarify what you mean.

Oh and seeing as you mentioned mary harney stealing money from old people, the money the IRA tried to steal in adare was destined for old age pensioners. Ironic that you should mention Mary Harney when the IRA have that llittle episode in their history.
Did I mention Mary Harney stealing stuff????


Sinn fein can aspire to what it likes, as long as it doesnt cause physical pain injury or death through its "millitary wing" the IRA.

I agree with you there 100%.

true

cdebru wrote:

the fact is that mcdowell has put the governmnet in a bit of a tight spot
how can they continue negoiating with what mc dowell says is the leadership of a criminal gang

It is Sinn Fein / IRA that has put the government in a bit of a tight spot , as Sinn Fein / IRA are wont to do. Everyone knows Sinn Fein / IRA are two sides of the same coin, and that calling them gangsters is a disservice to ordinary gangsters. How can they continue negoiating with what everyone knows ( except Sinn Feiners ) is the leadership of a criminal gang ? How much longer can Sinn Fein / IRA be appeased?

billy the squid

Squaletto wrote:

t is nothing to do with SF until the saintly agents of Mc Dodall or whatever his name is pin something on them, therefore put up or........

like i said, we will just have to wait for the DPPs decision.

Oh I get it now, first smear the innocents with unfounded lies and then hope the proof appears out of thin air. Maybe that's why Hugely unOrderly
came down to give lessons to Gardai on how to successfully find an innocent person guilty today! The Police in the north are experts at it!!!!

actually the minister for justice did not meet Hugh Orde (might be wrong spelling but at least i can use his name) to sign an agreement to co-operate in shutting down cross-border illegal crime gangs. and its about time.

Why doesn't he present the evidence then? Is it because he might think that we can't make up our own minds once given the chance to? In my world all suspects are innocent until proven guilty, it simply doesn't wash relying on the word of a bitter man regardless of his position in society. Mc doddery is guilty of abusing his position as we all know how he feels about Irishmen who aspire to the nobel notion of a united Ireland through republicanism!

what position did he abuse, he made his declaration on Today FM, not in the dail, therefore he is open to libel laws, why is he not being sued by Adams McGuinness and Ferris.

Some comments were made also about that new daily irish newspaper and they are sueing, why are not sinn fein? because they are afraid of what might come out in a libel case if they did.

Thank you for pointing that out to me but it still doesn't seem right that she even tried to pull off that scam! Two wrongs don' make a...........!

well if you were wrong about that then it might be a good idea to revisit all the propeganda crap you have been fed by sinn fein/ IRA.

Did you see gerry adams on the front page of the independent surrounded by men in paramillitary Uniforms. if you will excuse the pun but they looked as though they were as "thick as thieves"

Since when are the INLA and RIRA the political arm of SF. Have I missed something or have you, either way it's best you clarify what you mean.

I didnt say they were connected with sinn fein, i sarcastically called them "stallworths of republicanism."

id I mention Mary Harney stealing stuff????

from your previous post:

Isn't it a coincidence that during a week when the Health minister of the Irish Republic came under serious pressure to backtrack from illegal actions taken to legalise an illegal and in many ways criminal motion in the Dail where money was stolen from the most needy and vunerable in the Republic' that all this SF target practice took place?

and

Thank you for pointing that out to me but it still doesn't seem right that she even tried to pull off that scam! Two wrongs don' make a...........!

Squaletto

it might be a good idea to revisit all the propeganda crap you have been fed by sinn fein/ IRA.

Just a question or two for you, do you consider the brutal actions of the late Michael Collins and his troops of republicans during the 1918 campaign, criminality,terrorism or a mixture of both? Can you tell me if any of the Irish political parties have any links to this episode in Irish history?
My second question, what information are you being fed? Does it fall into the same category as what you call SF spill out?
I have read your national newspapers and British papers in an effort to understand what is going on in your country. I have come to a conclusion and it is quite obvious that one section of your media is completely biased towards the mainstream political parties but especially FG and the Pretty Dirtys. FF seem to be in favour with the same media group which has at its head a peer of the Crown no less. Talk about fairness!! Please feel free to educate me on the subject if you feel I don't have a proper angle on the situation. Thanking you for your patience,

jbkenn

Squaletto wrote:

Just a question or two for you, do you consider the brutal actions of the late Michael Collins and his troops of republicans during the 1918 campaign, criminality,terrorism or a mixture of both?

Different times, different circumstances.

Can you tell me if any of the Irish political parties have any links to this episode in Irish history?

Yes

My second question, what information are you being fed? Does it fall into the same category as what you call SF spill out?
I have read your national newspapers and British papers in an effort to understand what is going on in your country. I have come to a conclusion and it is quite obvious that one section of your media is completely biased towards the mainstream political parties but especially FG and the Pretty Dirtys. FF seem to be in favour with the same media group which has at its head a peer of the Crown no less. Talk about fairness!! Please feel free to educate me on the subject if you feel I don't have a proper angle on the situation. Thanking you for your patience,

Peer of the Crown? you mean Dr Sir A.J.F. "Beanz means Heinz" Waterford Crystal(oops! don't mention the horse) O'Reilly,? shur Tony is "one of the lads" donned the green for Ireland with distinction.

jbkenn

cdebru

Sand wrote:

Well, theyve been doing it for the past 10 years. The people involved havent changed. The rules were bent for SF/IRA to allow the talks in the interest of the greater good. Rather than responding positively to that, SF/IRA have selfishly exploited peoples willingness to help them adjust to constitutional politics. Now the goodwill has dried up and questions are being asked of SF/IRA.

Like, how can such a small party afford to have more paid employees as all the other parties in the Republic put together? The CAB and the PSNI will be trying to answer that question over the next few months.

no the people have not changed but the government was talking to sinn fein now mcdowell is saying they have been negoiating with an illegal organisation

what rules were bent


where did you come by the information that sinn fein hass more paid employees than all the other parties put together
can you provide a reputable link to these " facts"

billy the squid

Just a question or two for you, do you consider the brutal actions of the late Michael Collins and his troops of republicans during the 1918 campaign, criminality,terrorism or a mixture of both?

Isnt Michel Collins the one who was used as a scapegoat for partition, didnt he sign the treaty.

At least Michael Collins knew who his enemy was, and as has been posted already, different times and different circumstances.

what information are you being fed? Does it fall into the same category as what you call SF spill out?

im not sure what your on about here you will have to rephrase it. Im the one who chooses which papers I buy and which websites i visit on the internet. I have read both sides of the story from the latest orange order statements to the fianna eireann website. and I am well capable of making up my own mind.

I have read your national newspapers and British papers in an effort to understand what is going on in your country. I have come to a conclusion and it is quite obvious that one section of your media is completely biased towards the mainstream political parties but especially FG and the Pretty Dirtys. FF seem to be in favour with the same media group which has at its head a peer of the Crown no less

I take it the only one of our papers you have read is the independent. try reading the limerick leader and read about how the IRA left Ann McCabe without a husband, he went to work one morning and came home in a wooden box.

with regard to Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats. firstly the Progressive Democrats are not in coalition with Fine Gael. they are in coalition with Fianna Fail. at present fine gael are on the opposite side of the dail to the Progressive Democrats.

As for myself i despise the Progressive Democrats. their leader brought two investigations to a close premiturely and are planning to introduce a "yellow Pack " medical card whichwill hurt the less well off. but that is for a different thread.

so to answer your question I am not fed any Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/ Progressive Democrat line.

I cant help it if SF/IRA are involved in criminal activity.

Talk about fairness!! Please feel free to educate me on the subject if you feel I don't have a proper angle on the situation. Thanking you for your patience,

happy to oblige.

billy the squid

cant get a more neutroal source than this to say the IRA are involved in criminality. this media outlet has bugger all to do with tony o reily

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6E6A10CB-BA7D-4AA2-B86B-CE1E6B99790D.htm

monument

billy the squid, what a load of rubish, the article about what the IMC said, and btw it’s actually writen by the AFP. I think "IRA to [be] blamed", "a ceasefire watchdog has said" should have gave that away.

billy the squid

monument wrote:

billy the squid, what a load of rubish, the article about what the IMC said, and btw it’s actually writen by the AFP. I think "IRA to [be] blamed", "a ceasefire watchdog has said" should have gave that away.

1 How much influence does tony o reily have over afp

2. If it wasnt in al-jazeera's interest to post the story they wouldnt have posted it.

Squaletto

Different times, different circumstances.

Thanks JB for the reply but you have failed to answer the question I asked. I will ask it again. Do you think the actions of Michael Collins and his bunch of mass killers was terrorism, criminality or a mixture of both? I simply want to know how you feel about the definition of the catch phrase of Irish media at the present moment.
I anxiously await your answer, ciao.

mycroft

Squaletto wrote:

Different times, different circumstances.

Thanks JB for the reply but you have failed to answer the question I asked. I will ask it again. Do you think the actions of Michael Collins and his bunch of mass killers was terrorism, criminality or a mixture of both? I simply want to know how you feel about the definition of the catch phrase of Irish media at the present moment.
I anxiously await your answer, ciao.

How about you quit trying to drag this thread off topic, a classic republican tactic to start talking about our history, and then murky the water about the real issue here

jbkenn

Squaletto wrote:

Different times, different circumstances.

Thanks JB for the reply but you have failed to answer the question I asked. I will ask it again. Do you think the actions of Michael Collins and his bunch of mass killers was terrorism, criminality or a mixture of both? I simply want to know how you feel about the definition of the catch phrase of Irish media at the present moment.
I anxiously await your answer, ciao.

I will answer again, different times different circunstances, when the war of Indepence was fought the world was a different place, the Rising of 1916 had proven that taking on a superior military force in conventional warfare was madness, and guerilla tactics would prove more useful to a small ill equipped military force, was it terrorism? yes, was it criminal?, yes, in the eyes of the British Empire. People today do not seem to realise that the British Empire was the most powerful in the world.
At that time there was no international forum where the government could plead its case, no U.N., no European Court, no friendly Government to assist in making its case for independence, so the Republic was left with no option but to fight with what little means it had.


jbkenn

Squaletto

was it terrorism? yes, was it criminal?, yes,

Jb, So you think it was terrorism and criminal. I'm becoming more confused by the hour, here we are led to believe that Irish peoplle call Collins a hero for standing up against an evil empire bent on spreading imperialism. It seems strange that the people of Ireland are ashamed of their struggle but as you say different times and circumstances. Will the government tear down the statues and rewrite the declaration of independence so as to fit in to a holier image where Irish people can be seen as the peaceloving race that they are.

jbkenn

Squaletto wrote:

was it terrorism? yes, was it criminal?, yes,

Taken out of context, try this

was it terrorism? yes, was it criminal?, yes, in the eyes of the British Empire

jbkenn

Squaletto

JB
Oh okay, but in your eyes?

mycroft

Squaletto wrote:

was it terrorism? yes, was it criminal?, yes,

Jb, So you think it was terrorism and criminal. I'm becoming more confused by the hour, here we are led to believe that Irish peoplle call Collins a hero for standing up against an evil empire bent on spreading imperialism. It seems strange that the people of Ireland are ashamed of their struggle but as you say different times and circumstances. Will the government tear down the statues and rewrite the declaration of independence so as to fit in to a holier image where Irish people can be seen as the peaceloving race that they are.

The implied subtext of your argument is that if jbkenn supports and defends collins than he can't condemn the behaviour of the IRA at the moment.

It's an argument thats beyond simplisitic, and can be torn to shreds by anyway whose halfway schooled in reason and debating.

I'm not going into it here because I feel you're using this piece of semantics to deflect away from the real issue. What I will say is this, the majority of people in this country voted for the GFA which to my mind means the majority of the people in this country want an end to terrorist violence and private armys. So your argument is just moot.