Breakthrough in Northern bank job?

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

The implied subtext of your argument is that if jbkenn supports and defends collins than he can't condemn the behaviour of the IRA at the moment.

It's an argument thats beyond simplisitic, and can be torn to shreds by anyway whose halfway schooled in reason and debating.

I'm not going into it here because I feel you're using this piece of semantics to deflect away from the real issue. What I will say is this, the majority of people in this country voted for the GFA which to my mind means the majority of the people in this country want an end to terrorist violence and private armys. So your argument is just moot.

so lets implement the good friday agreement

mycroft

cdebru wrote:

so lets implement the good friday agreement

We're kind of waiting to find out if one side isn't commiting Ocean's eleven esque robberies and has a vast network of businesses to launder the money

Squaletto

mycroft wrote:

The implied subtext of your argument is that if jbkenn supports and defends collins than he can't condemn the behaviour of the IRA at the moment. Lets hear what Jb has to say on that and other implied subtexts of arguments thrown about by politicians in the Dail recently:

It's an argument thats beyond simplisitic, and can be torn to shreds by anyway whose halfway schooled in reason and debating. Go ahead and do it then!

I'm not going into it here because I feel you're using this piece of semantics to deflect away from the real issue. What I will say is this, the majority of people in this country voted for the GFA which to my mind means the majority of the people in this country want an end to terrorist violence and private armys. So your argument is just moot.

The real issue has been convientely abandoned by a lot of people during recent weeks and many people have been hurling out the same dross day in and day out so as to avoid the responsibilities which will have to be faced one day i.e sitting down and talking to SF about the grieviences of the nationalist community in the north! Mycroft, I feel that murder is murder regardless of when it happens and if you can justify the criminality of a bunch of republicans who founded the Irish state then you cannot preach to the rest of us. Criminality and terrorism has never changed regardless of what you might think. Regarding the GFA and the idea of private armies I agree with you. I also think that the root of the problem is the fact that some people can never forgive let alone sit down and form some sort of government for the north. Just look at Paisley and his stated objective in life i.e to destroy the GFA. Not enough people on this forum or in your country seem to see the road Paisley wants to go down. Sackclothe and Ashes, I mean really in the 21st century!!! What about preaching love thy nighbour as yourself etc, I haven't heard anything like that coming from Paisley, a self professed man of the cloth. For your information it is well understood throughout the island of Ireland that before Christmas the IRA were virtually begging the unionists to not humiliate them in their efforts to disband. It didn't happen because it suits too many people in your country to keep the bitter divisions going on. That way core support for the various factions continue to distrust each other and the snowball just keeps getting bigger. Hate feeding hate leading to more security forces on the streets, more jobs for the better placed classes within the privilaged community which in turn leads to the under privilaged communities looking on with anger and envy which in turn leads to more hate and the thing never changes. The simply solution is to get a bill of rights in the north, fix the problems with policing and most importantly get an education system in place where religion is not a dividing factor but a unifying factor. A friend from Sligo (my English teacher actually) said to me that all Irishmen from all sides of the many divisions in Ireland are all called Paddies in Britain. His point was that you people can all live together when you live away from your own country but find it difficult to live together in Ireland. Well the English see you all as one big family which is always fighting amongst itself!!! That way your strongest and most intelligent waste their skills on demonising each other while the national question fades into the murkey depths of oblivion.

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

We're kind of waiting to find out if one side isn't commiting Ocean's eleven esque robberies and has a vast network of businesses to launder the money

well according to the Gardai investigations into the money laundering could take years
we did not suspend the dail for years to wait and see if lowry burke and haughey lawlor etc were guilty

I personally think the far more important issue for sinn fein to deal with is the murder of robert mccartney and the decommissioning and disbandment of the IRA

Squaletto

It seem that the people of Ireland are finally becoming weary of the disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media on both sides of the border. Have a look at this link which may lead those who have been mouthing off about the alleged actions of the IRA will now look to their consciences and bow their heads in shame!

http://www.derryjournal.com/story/5893

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

well according to the Gardai investigations into the money laundering could take years
we did not suspend the dail for years to wait and see if lowry burke and haughey lawlor etc were guilty

I personally think the far more important issue for sinn fein to deal with is the murder of robert mccartney and the decommissioning and disbandment of the IRA

To an extent I agree with you here and tbh I think Bertie Ahern does too. Minister McDowell is obviously finding it difficult to accept that in order to get rid of the IRA, he has to turn a blind eye to some of their crimes at the moment. Surely the smart strategy would be to ignore their crimes for now, get the IRA disbanded and then prosecute it's former members for their crimes?

From my understanding of the GFA, the perpetrators of the current crimes are inelligible for early release so criminal cases can be taken against them (and hopefully multiple life sentences imposed, particularly for the butchers that killed Robert McCartney).

Sleepy

Squaletto wrote:

It seem that the people of Ireland are finally becoming weary of the disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media on both sides of the border. Have a look at this link which may lead those who have been mouthing off about the alleged actions of the IRA will now look to their consciences and bow their heads in shame!

http://www.derryjournal.com/story/5893

That article seems to me as little more than a call for the papers to leave Sinn Fein alone. In my eyes, it is the media's role to question all political parties and their representatives. If a paper is confident enough that it's sources are accurate, and their legal department is happy that an article is not libelous, I don't see any issue with them unmasking terrorists, revealing politicians shady business dealings, inappropriate hiring practices or any other illegal activity a party member is involved in.

If the individual in question is indeed innocent of the accusations levelled against them, they have their opportunity for redresss in the courts.

If anything I would consider our libel laws to be too restrictive. How often do you hear that shady dealings were known about by the media years in advance of their publication? A free media is the first step towards making democracy work.

Squaletto

Sleepy wrote:

That article seems to me as little more than a call for the papers to leave Sinn Fein alone. In my eyes, it is the media's role to question all political parties and their representatives. If a paper is confident enough that it's sources are accurate, and their legal department is happy that an article is not libelous, I don't see any issue with them unmasking terrorists, revealing politicians shady business dealings, inappropriate hiring practices or any other illegal activity a party member is involved in.

.

Surely in a democratic society the role of the media is to act as the watchdog of society and not to act as the slave of the security services or any other branch of government. From Derry Journal. What about journalism standards, noboby can say that the likes of Cusack and co are exactly fair in their reporting. In fact all they are doing is trying to make a bad situation worse by spreading unfounded lies fed to them by a corrupt police force who have their own agenda in the so called dirty war. Remember journalists are supposed to give all sides of the argument not their own personal opinions. It's the first rule in journalism and I often wonder if certain journos actually are professional at all or did they get their qualifications from the same dodgy sources they so often name in their articles!!!

Sleepy

trying to make a bad situation worse by spreading unfounded lies fed to them by a corrupt police force who have their own agenda in the so called dirty war

like to back that up with some facts? That just sounds like stereotypical Sinn Fein "We're the REAL victims" nonsense.

The fact that Adams et al are on or in control of the Army Council is just that: a fact.
The fact that people from republican backrounds are refusing to join the PSNI due to Sinn Fein/IRA coersion is just that: a fact.
The fact that the journalists in question (I assume you're talking about Paul Williams et al) are some of the most respected investigative journalists in the country is just that: a fact.

I'm sure the Irish government would much rather that the media would shut up about the criminal aspects of Sinn Fein/IRA given that they have to deal with them and the sooner all this is swept under the carpet (as I'm sure it will be in this banana republic) the sooner they can disband the IRA, legitimise Sinn Fein (thus turning it into a marginal party for extreme-left socialists) and take the credit for bringing peace to the island.

Squaletto

like to back that up with some facts? Okay l

The Force Research Unit - 'My unit conspired in the murder of civilians in Ireland' - by Neil Mackay Home Affairs Editor (Sunday Herald) Publication Date: Nov 19 2000

THERE is no hesitation in his voice. "Oh, yeah," the former military intelligence officer says. "There's no doubt about this. My unit was guilty of conspiring in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland, on about 14 occasions."

The team behind the killings is the Force Research Unit or FRU, the British army's most covert and elite military intelligence squad. It ran a series of double agents across the Province at the height of Ulster's "dirty war" conducting an horrific anti-terrorist campaign. The FRU was under the command of Brigadier Gordon Kerr. Kerr, an Aberdeen man and former Gordon Highlander, was in charge of this shadowy network of British army agents, who quite simply collaborated with their loyalist informers to murder civilians in Ulster, between 1987 and 1991. Sometimes their victims were Provos, sometimes high-ranking republicans, but on at least four occasions they were innocent Catholics.

Now in his early 50s, Kerr, a graduate and career officer who later moved to the Intelligence Corps, is currently the British military attaché in Beijing, one of the most distinguished positions in the diplomatic service.

Kerr's FRU has been the subject of a long-running and top secret inquiry by Sir John Stevens, Scotland Yard Commissioner, into whether or not they colluded with loyalists as part of a campaign of organised state-sanctioned murder. The FRU are suspected of carrying out an arson attack on Stevens' office in an attempt to destroy key evidence linking the unit with UDA murder gangs. This is a story that military chiefs do not want out.

Most of Stevens' work has focused on the death of Pat Finucane. The Catholic solicitor, who had many high-profile republican clients, was gunned down by loyalist hitmen in Belfast in 1989. Finucane's death was planned by Brian Nelson, the Ulster Defence Association intelligence officer who was also the FRU's most prized agent.

The fact that Adams et al are on or in control of the Army Council is just that: a fact. Give me a credible link so I can check the facts out for myself then!
The fact that people from republican backrounds are refusing to join the PSNI due to Sinn Fein/IRA coersion is just that: a fact. I need more evidence here thanks not mere bar counter talk please!
The fact that the journalists in question (I assume you're talking about Paul Williams et al) are some of the most respected investigative journalists in the country is just that: a fact.Please don't assume anything,just give me the facts thanks! Have a look at this and tell me if it is correct! http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1329324&issue_id=12013

Sleepy

A 5 year old article from the Herald? Must be true so. :rolleyes:
Besides, that article refers to a branch of the British army intelligence is not the same thing as the PSNI.

Credible sources that Adams et al are on or in control of the Army Council? I think the Minister for Justice is a credible enough source tbh. Though you could read "A Secret History of the IRA" by Ed O' Brien either.

From Sinn Fein's own website: 1492 articles condemning the PSNI(http://www.sinnfein.ie/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=psni). Very encouraging for anyone from a republican area interested in joining the force. :rolleyes:

I'm afraid I can't read that independent link as I've yet to receive the email with my password since registering for the site (which I'm doing purely to read the article in question).

Stabshauptmann

Sleepy wrote:

like to back that up with some facts? That just sounds like stereotypical Sinn Fein "We're the REAL victims" nonsense.

Its his opinion nobodys going to pretend its a fact but likewise he is entitled in the absence of facts on both sides hes entitled to hold one.

The fact that Adams et al are on or in control of the Army Council is just that: a fact.

Em no its not. The fact that McDowell is in the cabinet is a fact, that he is on control of it is anything but. It is opinion.

The fact that people from republican backrounds are refusing to join the PSNI due to Sinn Fein/IRA coersion is just that: a fact.

There may be lots of reasons, the is definitly some intimidation but i wouldnt say its the only reason.

The fact that the journalists in question (I assume you're talking about Paul Williams et al) are some of the most respected investigative journalists in the country is just that: a fact.

Its a fact that some people hold that opinion.

I'm sure the Irish government would much rather that the media would shut up about the criminal aspects of Sinn Fein/IRA given that they have to deal with them and the sooner all this is swept under the carpet (as I'm sure it will be in this banana republic) the sooner they can disband the IRA, legitimise Sinn Fein (thus turning it into a marginal party for extreme-left socialists) and take the credit for bringing peace to the island.

Is that fact or opinion?

Cork

cdebru wrote:

I personally think the far more important issue for sinn fein to deal with is the murder of robert mccartney and the decommissioning and disbandment of the IRA

They have not dealt with the murderers of Robert McCartney nor IRA decomissioning.

SF have yet to even deal with punishment beatings.

Maybe when shinners refer to criminality - it excludes beating people up with baseball bats, fuel rackets, cigerette rackets, bank robberies etc.

What is the the SF definition of a crime?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sleepy wrote:

like to back that up with some facts? That just sounds like stereotypical Sinn Fein "We're the REAL victims" nonsense.

The fact that Adams et al are on or in control of the Army Council is just that: a fact.
The fact that people from republican backrounds are refusing to join the PSNI due to Sinn Fein/IRA coersion is just that: a fact.
The fact that the journalists in question (I assume you're talking about Paul Williams et al) are some of the most respected investigative journalists in the country is just that: a fact.

FACT

'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.'

lomb

Cork wrote:

What is the the SF definition of a crime?

to be a lawalist

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

Credible sources that Adams et al are on or in control of the Army Council? I think the Minister for Justice is a credible enough source tbh. Though you could read "A Secret History of the IRA" by Ed O' Brien either.

that is the ministers opinion based on information he has seen that is not the same as it being a fact niether mcdowell or O'brien have attended army council meetings so they are more than likely basing their opinions on the same security force intelligence

Sleepy wrote:

From Sinn Fein's own website: 1492 articles condemning the PSNI(http://www.sinnfein.ie/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=psni). Very encouraging for anyone from a republican area interested in joining the force. :rolleyes:

so sinn fein should not criticise the PSNI when they do something that SF believes is wrong where in all those articles is there a threat to anyone that something will happent o them if they join the PSNI
Sinn Fein are not at this stage encouraging people to join the PSNI but that does not mean they are intimidating or threatening people not to

why do they call these areas Republican areas because the people there vote for republicans they do that in a secret ballot if sinn fein were intimidating them why would they go and vote for them.

I would expect that their will be a drop in the republican vote in the short strand because those thugs tried to intimidate them thye might be afraid to talk to the pSNI but I suspect that SF will get some kind of bloody nose at the ballot box

A Dub in Glasgo

double post

cdebru

Cork wrote:

They have not dealt with the murderers of Robert McCartney nor IRA decomissioning.

SF have yet to even deal with punishment beatings.

Maybe when shinners refer to criminality - it excludes beating people up with baseball bats, fuel rackets, cigerette rackets, bank robberies etc.

What is the the SF definition of a crime?

i never suggested they had

as for sinn feins definition of crime it is obviously going to be different from yours

I presume you would consider the killing of british soldiers RUC etc a crime
they would not

also since they would not consider membership of the IRA to be a crime

nor would they consider activities that the IRA involved themselves in to raise money to fund the armed struggle to be crimes(bank robberies smuggling etc)


to my mind the best way to deal with this situation is to get sinn fein on to the policing boards get the IRA stood down and decommissioned then it becomes irrelevant if the IRA are gone then dont wont be fund raising any stragglers who want to commit robberies will be doing it for themselves and can be treated as criminals in the normal manner

Johnny_the_fox

cdebru wrote:

so sinn fein should not criticise the PSNI when they do something that SF believes is wrong where in all those articles is there a threat to anyone that something will happent o them if they join the PSNI
Sinn Fein are not at this stage encouraging people to join the PSNI but that does not mean they are intimidating or threatening people not to

Sinn Fein potesting outside the District Policing Partnership on Community Issues.. would that not count as intimidating?

for a catholic to discuss local problems - they would find it intimidating. Who would it be for a catholic to join the PSNI.

bbc
The Policing Board's 2002-2003 report, published on Tuesday, states that 72% of Catholics questioned in a Community Attitudes survey cited fear of intimidation or attack as a reason not to join the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cdebru

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

Sinn Fein potesting outside the District Policing Partnership on Community Issues.. would that not count as intimidating?

for a catholic to discuss local problems - they would find it intimidating. Who would it be for a catholic to join the PSNI.

no it would be legitimate political protest i presume that is still allowed

look i have already stated i think sinn fein should be on the policing boards and encouraging nationalists and republicans to join the PSNI the sooner it happens the sooner we get rid of the kind of thugs that were responsible for robert mccartneys murder

cdebru

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy
And what happens then? If Adams, McGuinness and Ferris are arrested and charged (quite legitimately), the rest of the IRA will go back to violence. Personally, I think that if this happens, it's time to let the Irish Rangers prove themselves on our own soil and I'd be largely in favour of this course of action. I'm in the minority on this though. The majority of the Irish people would be too afraid to take this course of action and would rather see these criminals walk the streets if it'll keep the provos at bay.[/QUOTE]

daveirl wrote:

There's a general election in two years, I'll so vote for you if that's your stated policy.

.

so dave you don't have a problem with people being killed for political purposes
if the people deserve it in your eyes then murder is ok

how are you different from the provos

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

The provisional movement are the enemy of the state.

The IRA army council sees itself as the government of this country.

DeValera took the IRA on in the 1940's.

If need be then an Irish government should these thugs on.

No doubt the Shinners will still be oblivious to the criminality carried out by their buddies in the IRA.

cdebru

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy wrote:

I would however, like it to be made clear to republicans and unionists alike that any resumption of violence would lead to a shoot to kill warrant being placed upon their heads by the Irish army. Sinn Fein/ IRA do not have the right to threaten or imply threats of violence every time they don't get their own way. I'd like them to be told that any violence they act out will be paid back at tehm by a legitimate army (who I daresay are far better trained and equiped than their hoodlums).

how about this quote would you still vote for sleepy

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

i never suggested they had

as for sinn feins definition of crime it is obviously going to be different from yours

I presume you would consider the killing of british soldiers RUC etc a crime
they would not

also since they would not consider membership of the IRA to be a crime

nor would they consider activities that the IRA involved themselves in to raise money to fund the armed struggle to be crimes(bank robberies smuggling etc)

to my mind the best way to deal with this situation is to get sinn fein on to the policing boards get the IRA stood down and decommissioned then it becomes irrelevant if the IRA are gone then dont wont be fund raising any stragglers who want to commit robberies will be doing it for themselves and can be treated as criminals in the normal manner

So, despite Sinn Fein / IRA not agreeing with (and blatantly breaking) the laws of the country you believe they should be part of the body charged with enforcing those laws? :rolleyes:

I swear, if Sinn Fein / IRA weren't murderers they'd be hilarious.

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

so dave you don't have a problem with people being killed for political purposes
if the people deserve it in your eyes then murder is ok

how are you different from the provos

When did I talk about killing for political purposes? I believe that the paramiltaries should be killed if a there is a return to violence. This isn't political, it's the defence of the citizens of a nation. I grant that my opinions on this are extremist but when someone has been incapable of seeing reason for nearly 40 years, I don't have much faith for their rehabilitation. I believe in the death penalty for murders. If you'd like to debate the death penalty, please start a thread in humanities, otherwise can we bring this thread back on topic: i.e. Sinn Fein / IRA's robbery of the Northern Bank.

billy the squid

Squaletto wrote:

It seem that the people of Ireland are finally becoming weary of the disgusting behaviour of the Irish Media on both sides of the border. Have a look at this link which may lead those who have been mouthing off about the alleged actions of the IRA will now look to their consciences and bow their heads in shame!

http://www.derryjournal.com/story/5893

an editorial isnt supposed to be fact, it is supposed to be opinion. Its been that way since the first ever editorial.

from the linked article

Republicans may, or may not, have been responsible for some recent incidents but it should be left to the courts to decide innocence or guilt. Speculation and hype are a poor substitute for due process.

what it forgot to mention is that for several weeks after the murder of Robert McCartney, Sinn Fein were suggesting that witnesses go to priests and solicitors. How are the courts going to decide on the behaviour of republicans (rafia) iif no one wants the police to investigate the case.

A Dub in Glasgo

billy the squid wrote:

what it forgot to mention is that for several weeks after the murder of Robert McCartney, Sinn Fein were suggesting that witnesses go to priests and solicitors. How are the courts going to decide on the behaviour of republicans (rafia) iif no one wants the police to investigate the case.

That is correct. That evidence/statements will then be passed onto the police via those intermediaries. I see nothing wrong with this approach if the people are wary of the police intentions. Do you?

It is better for the statements to be brought via this route than not brought at all

Sleepy

I see a very big problem with it A_Dub_In_Glasgo; it's called hearsay. No court in the world (that I'm aware of) can secure a conviction on it.