Forward passes

Pherekydes

Why are so many forward passes tolerated so much? When a guy running up the field passes to a guy beside him the ball goes forward. Why are these not penalized? I noticed quite a few of these in the recent matches.

Also, why do players who do not release the ball when they go to ground not get penalized?

I find these inconsistencies very irritating when watching matches.

daveirl

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Pherekydes

Explain, please. If the ball goes forward, relative to the ground, it's a forward pass. Am I missing something?

Chucky the tree

Slow coach wrote:

Also, why do players who do not release the ball when they go to ground not get penalized?
.

they do

sometimes they might get away with it, but its becoming alot stricter

Guy:Incognito

Slow coach wrote:

Explain, please. If the ball goes forward, relative to the ground, it's a forward pass. Am I missing something?

It allows for the two people running. As long as the recieving player is further back that the passer its not a forward pass.

Pherekydes

Stekelly wrote:

It allows for the two people running. As long as the recieving player is further back that the passer its not a forward pass.

No, that's wrong. If the ball goes forward, relative to the ground, it's forward. It's in the Laws of the game.

Sangre

No. Its a forward pass if it goes forward relative to the passer. And it has to be forward not flat.

Pherekydes

Sangre wrote:

No. Its a forward pass if it goes forward relative to the passer. And it has to be forward not flat.

No. It's forward if it's towards the opponents' try line.

Here's an extract from the laws:

"A throw-forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

Trojan

DEFINITION - THROW-FORWARD

A throw-forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
`Forward' means towards te opposing team's dead ball line.

Trojan

There's something ironic about being preempted by someone called Slow_coach...

Pherekydes

Yeah, and by 19 minutes!

[Jackass]

The linesmen and refs will sometimes miss them...but you must also remember that television angles can be very decieveing, if they are not exactly in line with a player, but from an angel slightly behind the player, a flat pass (i.e. sideways, but not towards the opponents dead ball line), can easily look forward. You'll notice the difference if you watch a match in the stand, then watch it later on tv. I have noticed a certain amount of forward passes been gotten away with in recent years, but if it's on TV, the commentators would usually pick up on it. (Tony Ward never misses a thing!! :eek:)

Pherekydes

Well I'm sorry, but...

You need no TV or live viewing. If a guy is running upfield and he tosses the ball laterally it travels forward, diagonally forward. Unless he actually tosses it backward. The ones I'm talking about are the ones where the guy tosses the ball to the guy who is abreast of him, i.e. a so-called flat pass, and obviously I'm only referring to these when the passer is himself running upfield.

If the passer makes a 'flat pass' to a teammate who is abreast of him, and the teammate is still abreast of him when he catches the pass, then they have advanced up the field, and so has the ball, while it's in the air.

This is most obvious when the players are running fast, and are relatively far apart.

Watch for it in future. Look for the travel of the ball relative to a line on the ground, say the 22.

Downtime

Slow coach wrote:

Why are so many forward passes tolerated so much? When a guy running up the field passes to a guy beside him the ball goes forward. Why are these not penalized? I noticed quite a few of these in the recent matches.

Also, why do players who do not release the ball when they go to ground not get penalized?

I find these inconsistencies very irritating when watching matches.

There is no forward pass in the Laws of Rugby. The laws were changed a few years ago to allow for the Laws of Physics to intervene.

As trojan defined

Trojan wrote:

DEFINITION - THROW-FORWARD

A throw-forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
`Forward' means towards te opposing team's dead ball line.

It must be an intentional "throw". The ball can be passed forward. It is obivious that if a player is running at speed and passed 90 degrees to his left or right that the ball will go forward and there is nothing wrong with this. Referees and touch judges are not missing anything - just playing the laws.

The reciever does not have to be further back to recieve it and it can be forward relative to the ground.

denachoman

Downtime wrote:

There is no forward pass in the Laws of Rugby.

It must be an intentional "throw". The ball can be passed forward. It is obivious that if a player is running at speed and passed 90 degrees to his left or right that the ball will go forward and there is nothing wrong with this. Referees and touch judges are not missing anything - just playing the laws.

The reciever does not have to be further back to recieve it and it can be forward relative to the ground.

Am I missing something here? What is the difference between a pass and a throw? In the England V France match last weekend Martin Corry was brought back from a clean line break because of a forward pass, no?

You frequently here commentators say during matches that a pass was forward because if moved forward relative to the ground e.g. take the obvious case where the ball is passed a yard short of the half way line and is caught a yard on the other side of the half way line. This is clearly a forward pass and not allowed under the rules of the game.

Downtime

denachoman wrote:

This is clearly a forward pass and not allowed under the rules of the game.

I hate to be bedantic but the forward pass is allowed - it is a hard one to explain and is based on how the ball is thrown or passed - at pace it is not very often that a forward throw is called back due to, as I said earlier, physics. If it is obivious that it was intentionally done of the ball travels forward lets say more than a metre then it will be called back. It also has to do with the arm movement - if the movement was behind or to the extreme (90 degree) left or right and it travels in a forward direction it will be allowed. However if the arm movement for the pass is between 90 and 180 it is a throw forward.

There are no rules in rugby regarding forward passes, there is however the law, as stated ealier regarding a throw forward.

There is no difference between a pass and a throw except th pass the ball you have to throw it - by throwing the ball to someone you are passing. You cant pass without throwing.

denachoman

Can we try to clarify things a bit please - I'm totally confused now!

Downtime wrote:

I hate to be bedantic but the forward pass is allowed

There are no rules in rugby regarding forward passes, there is however the law, as stated ealier regarding a throw forward.

Okay

Downtime wrote:

There is no difference between a pass and a throw except to pass the ball you have to throw it - by throwing the ball to someone you are passing. You cant pass without throwing.

So if all passes are throws and all forward throws are not allowed then surely all forward passes are not allowed.

[Jackass]

lol...just watch the game will ya?......

Downtime

denachoman wrote:

So if all passes are throws and all forward throws are not allowed then surely all forward passes are not allowed.

It is difficult to explain without diagrams, or showing it in progress.
Put it this - in terms of rugby there is no such thing as a forward pass.

If I am sprinting and I throw 10 metres to the right and the guy catches the ball and is slightly (say 1 metre) in front of me - happy days.

If I am standing still and I do the same thing it is a forward throw as the ball did not have the momentum of me running behind it when it was thrown.

I can't explain any more.

denachoman

Downtime wrote:

If I am standing still and I do the same thing it is a forward throw as the ball did not have the momentum of me running behind it when it was thrown.

I get it now - i didn't know that the momentum of the ball before it was thrown was taken into account.

Thanks.

Trojan

Consider also the position of the passing player when the receiver catches the ball

Pherekydes

Read the excerpt from the Laws. It says nothing about momentum. If the ball travels through the air in the direction of the opposing team's dead ball line, it's a forward throw, and should be penalised.


"A throw-forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

Downtime

Slow coach wrote:

Read the excerpt from the Laws. It says nothing about momentum. If the ball travels through the air in the direction of the opposing team's dead ball line, it's a forward throw, and should be penalised.


"A throw-forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

Yes I know, but all I am saying is that momentum of the player and ball is taken into account when refereeing this law, and is therefore why some passes that appear forward are not blown and is also why the forward pass law was amended.

Pherekydes

So the refs make up their own rules as they go along?

Do they arbitrarily decide which passes to penalise, or do they favour certain teams? Or is it because they don't want to spoil a good try?

Downtime

Slow coach wrote:

So the refs make up their own rules as they go along?

Do they arbitrarily decide which passes to penalise, or do they favour certain teams? Or is it because they don't want to spoil a good try?

The hardly make up the rules as there are none in rugby, can you tell me any?. Forward passes are never penalised in rugby, have you ever seen one penalised.

I don't want to get bedantic - it is common sense and if you knew some physics you might understand. I have explained it to the best of my knowledge. If you are not happy or have another query then I suggest you email the IRB and ask them.

Here is what the Australian international referee, Andrew Cole, wrote: "Spectators often misunderstand the forward pass - lines on the field should never be used to judge whether a pass is forward or not. A forward pass relates to the passing action, i.e. if the hands move forward in a pass it is forward. Quite often, due to the momentum of the player passing, the ball will travel forward before it is caught by a teammate. This is NOT a forward pass. This illusion is emphasised when the player passing has been stopped in a tackle just as he passes the ball. Look at his hands as he passes, not where the ball goes!"


Fair enough.

Pherekydes

Downtime wrote:

The hardly make up the rules as there are none in rugby, can you tell me any?. Forward passes are never penalised in rugby, have you ever seen one penalised.

I don't want to get bedantic - it is common sense and if you knew some physics you might understand. I have explained it to the best of my knowledge. If you are not happy or have another query then I suggest you email the IRB and ask them.

Fair enough.

Physics doesn't come into it. If the ball travels towards the other line it's forward. Surely you don't need a degree in Physics to see that?

The Law is straightforward and common sense. The real problem is why it's not applied consistently.

And, please, the word is pedantic.

MG

Does this help to explain?

http://www.planet-rugby.com/Off_The_Field/Laws_And_Referees/Law_Discussions/story_38800.shtml

daveirl

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Downtime

Slow coach wrote:

Physics doesn't come into it. If the ball travels towards the other line it's forward. Surely you don't need a degree in Physics to see that?

Of course you don't need a degree in physics. But was the ball thrown in that direction i.e. forward ? - maybe not. If the ball travels towards the other line it's travelling forward but may not have been thrown forward.

MG wrote:

Does this help to explain?

http://www.planet-rugby.com/Off_The...ory_38800.shtml

I'm sure you won't be happy with that either, but it is plain to see - physics comes into it - a ball does not have to be thrown forward to go forward and therefore many foward passes are infact not forward.

Slow coach wrote:

And, please, the word is pedantic.

Too true - apologies.

Sangre

Oh my god people just look at it this way.
It will be called for a forward pass if it has gone forward relative to the passer, whether he is moving or not. If it was relative to the ground you could never have those lovely floater passes that allow some real speed on the ball take.

MG

I think this will clarify perfectly:

If an english player passes to another english player to score a try against Ireland, it is a forward pass.

If an Irish player passes to another Irish player to score a try against England, it is not a forward pass.

Downtime

MG wrote:

I think this will clarify perfectly:

If an english player passes to another english player to score a try against Ireland, it is a forward pass.

If an Irish player passes to another Irish player to score a try against England, it is not a forward pass.

In fairness the English player should be binned aswell for trying to con everyone.

MG

Downtime wrote:

In fairness the English player should be binned aswell for trying to con everyone.

LOL!

Pherekydes

daveirl wrote:

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Come on Dave, it's not applied consistently. Plenty of forward passes are penalized, and plenty are not.

just not in the way you want it to be interpreted.

Too true! (According to the Laws, that is)

Hugh_C

another way of looking at it is to mentally "freeze" the passing player - the dirextion he passes maybe perpendicular or behind him, but the ball's momentum (imparted from the passing player) will cause it to move to the left / right AND forward.

Pherekydes

hughchal wrote:

another way of looking at it is to mentally "freeze" the passing player - the dirextion he passes maybe perpendicular or behind him, but the ball's momentum (imparted from the passing player) will cause it to move to the left / right AND forward.

Nobody's disputing that. But why is it allowed? It's not catered for in the Laws.

Boston

No your all wrong, a forward pass is when you walk up to a girl in a Bar and you go, "hey sweetie pie, wanta get buzzy"

So for the Trollage trojan, please don't beat moi. Good night

Hugh_C

Slow coach wrote:

Nobody's disputing that. But why is it allowed? It's not catered for in the Laws.

It is, the pass isn't in the direction of the opposition's dead ball line

spanner

daveirl wrote:

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but they were penalised a few years ago though, i think its to have the game faster, see in super 12 there is many very close to forward