Formations - Ireland

thejollyrodger

Ireland seem to stick with the tried and testing 4-4-2. Isnt it about time Ireland tried more formations. brian kerr did try 4-3-3 a few times but should we experiement a lot more ?

The formation Portugal and Real Madrid use would be great. Any thoughts ?

therecklessone

Of our current best XI, only Roy Keane and Duffer have any experience of using a non-orthodox formation. TBh, I think we're better off sticking with what we know. Compare and contrast Spurs in last Saturday's FA Cup match against West Brom at home.

4-3-3 in the first half = headless chickens.
4-4-2 in second half = only one winner.

PHB

Exactly, you need time to gel into a 4-3-3, its a very teamwork orientated formation.
Not that many international teams will ever use it, infact nearly all international teams will use a 4-4-2, because its the easiest to organise since everyone knows it well

GuanYin

Well we don't play a straight 442 insofar as Reid and Duff interchange alot and we do play them as real wingers as opposed to wide midfielders.

Reid has played in several positions too.

KdjaCL

Need to able to play both in the same game, with or without the ball but we cant cos not good enough atm.
Clinton isnt good enough to be the main striker in a 4 3 3 (or an attacking 451 with 2 wide forwards who drop deep and work for the ball when they dont have it ala Duff Robben for CHE )

With the ball we need attacking players Duff and Keane wide but Clinton not good enough to finish any chance they create. So 442 is best suited to the players we have as Keane can play off CM easily and be the creative attacker wide 2 wide players to cross for CM ala Duff Reid.

Should be able to play both in any game as Utd and Che do when an extra player req up front but we dont have the striker to do it.

kdjac

GuanYin

KdjaC wrote:

Need to able to play both in the same game, with or without the ball but we cant cos not good enough atm.
Clinton isnt good enough to be the main striker in a 4 3 3 (or an attacking 451 with 2 wide forwards who drop deep and work for the ball when they dont have it ala Duff Robben for CHE )

I think 451/433 is something I'd like to see but Keane isn't good enough for it.

With the ball we need attacking players Duff and Keane wide but Clinton not good enough to finish any chance they create.

Thats very unfair on Morrisson. He playes a game for IReland that involves him running into the ground winning the ball in the air and holding it up/laying it off. His role doesn't give him many chances to score and that considered he does will for IReland.

I don't think Birmingham suits him either. Considered the rollercoaster season he has had he's done well but the team is under the kosh so much a striker gets little joy. I'd keep him in the team, because he'll create chances for others and I don't think we'll find anyone with as good a work rate that will score for us.

We have good players and you play the formation that suits your best 11 players.

Duff and Reid are two good wingers who can do different things. Reid is all about vision and passing and has no small amount of pace and trickery too. Duff is a great crosser and his skill is world class. These are the players you build the formation around for me.

Keane is a good player, but he's THE most frustrating Irish player there is. He pick the wrong option half the time, never looks up and never ever plays the simple ball. I hate watching him. He was woeful againstthe portuguese again and it just reaffirms my view that he's no good against quality opposition. I can't see him score more then 2 goals against in all the games against France, The Swiss and Israel. So far he is 0/2. even if he gets 2/6 thats not good enough for our top striker

We need an alternative, even to bring on if he's not doing his stuff.

After that I think O'Shea should be thought of as a midfielder. Miller is going nowhere for now and Kilbane-Keane axis, while good isn't gonna be there every game.

I'd be interested on who, do people think our best 11 players are and what formation we could make out of them.

I'll have to think about that.

KdjaCL

Your right he runs into the ground , thats not a finsiher tho its a hold up player.
Thats about all he can do, a low pass from left or right wing to him near peno spot and more than liley he be in the wrong place or he will miskick it.

His heading ability from crosses is just as bad, his only strenght is his work rate and hold up play hence the 442.


kdjac

Draupnir

Sure didnt big Mick try 3-5-2 for ages and it never worked right. And we tried 4-3-3 against Croatia I think it was a couple of months back and it didnt look great.

I think our best is 4-4-2 with Clinton and Robbie up froint right now. Clinton does lots of hard work and is better than a lot of people give him credit for.

thejollyrodger

Well we ONLY tried 4-3-3 once and we got a decent result. 4-4-2 isnt very flexible and Kerr admitted so himself. I think all the Ireland underage players coming through have played with different formations

The only major problem with 4-3-3 is that you really need a out and out striker. Robbie isnt that kind of player(yet maybe). Robbie plays his best when he is playing off someone else. When the ball was knocked down on the ground by Quinn, Robbie always looked very dangerous. Clinton is just filling Quinn's boots but holding the ball up with his feet instead of his head. Maybe Elliott might be a better type of player.

Duff and Ried have experience in 4-3-3


______________Given

Carr____O brien___Cuningham____O Shea

____??________Roy Keane____Kilbane

Ried__________Elliott/Keane______Duff

Pigman II

Considering the attacking options we've got I reckon 4-6-0 is the way to go.

jobonar

thejollyrodger wrote:

______________Given

Carr____O brien___Cuningham____O Shea

____??________Roy Keane____Kilbane

Ried__________Elliott/Keane______Duff

?? = Aiden McGeady. i think he deserves a go on the right.

Chucky the tree

surely elliott isnt good enough to be starting ahead of keane?

Big Ears

jobonar wrote:

?? = Aiden McGeady. i think he deserves a go on the right.

Willo Flood is another one that will challenge for the right hand-side soon enough too .

thejollyrodger

Elliott smacks goals in from outside the peno area. He looks very promising. I rate him better than Keano in terms of attitude and options he picks.

Mc Geady is one for the WC2006 finals WHEN we get there. The right side of midfield in a 4-3-3 might well suit him (and he should have plenty of experience with Ireland underage). Plenty of trickery.

Kilbane would really relish the center of the pitch with just 3 across. He looked great when Kerr had him in the middle with Keane. I just wonder if Keano would be up for it.

Duff and Ried have scored goals. Duff has scored a right few goals for Chelsea. And Ried looked the most likely to score against the french in the Stade de France. They dont really have that freedom with 4-4-2.

Big Ears

thejollyrodger wrote:

Mc Geady is one for the WC2006 finals WHEN we get there. The right side of midfield in a 4-3-3 might well suit him (and he should have plenty of experience with Ireland underage). Plenty of trickery.

To be honest I think the position would be too defensive for McGeady , he would fit bettern as one of the final three , but so would Duff and Reid and Flood.........so many options .

PHB

Keano plays in a 4-3-3 all the bloody time in United
He'd be the one with the most experience.

Given
Finnan-Dunne-O'Brien-O'Shea
Reid-Keano-Kilbane-Duff
Elliot-Keane

Is out best team, and the best team we'll have for a while imo

GuanYin

Ok Best Irish team we can put out imho

---

Given

---

Carr

---

O'Brien----Cunningham

---

Finnan

---

---

O'Shea----Keane

---

Kilbane

---

Reid

---

Duff

---

Keane

---

Subs:
Kenny
Dunne
Maybury
Holland
McGeady
Miller (reluctantly)
Morrisson
Elliot

I reluctantly go with Keane until we get someone like Elliot with more experience. IF Elliot did well in 3-4 competitive games he's in ahead of Keane imho.

Chucky the tree

i dont know much abou this elliot lad, but if hes so good why hasnt he moved up to premiership or championship even?


keane would be woeful on his own up front.

GuanYin

Chucky the tree wrote:

i dont know much abou this elliot lad, but if hes so good why hasnt he moved up to premiership or championship even?


keane would be woeful on his own up front.

Elliot is in the Championship, for Sunderland where he has 12 goals this season (I think).

He's only young still and I think that his potential is such that he'd only go to a top-10 premiership team and even more, I doubt Sunderland woul dlet him go cheap.

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

Keano plays in a 4-3-3 all the bloody time in United
He'd be the one with the most experience.

Given
Finnan-Dunne-O'Brien-O'Shea
Reid-Keano-Kilbane-Duff
Elliot-Keane

Is out best team, and the best team we'll have for a while imo

Elliot has played very well for Sunderland , but Morrison has been in the form of his life for Ireland and doesn't deserve to be dropped for anyone .
Kavanagh is a better midfielder than O'Shea(thats not opinion either )-thats in response to Syke.

my team:

---

Given

---

Carr

---

O'Brien

---

Cunningham

---

Finnan

---

---

Keane

---

---

Kilbane

---

---

Duff

---

Reid

---

Morrison

---

---

Keane

---

eirebhoy

Chucky the tree wrote:

i dont know much abou this elliot lad, but if hes so good why hasnt he moved up to premiership or championship even?

:eek:

syke wrote:

Elliot is in the Championship, for Sunderland where he has 12 goals this season (I think).

13 goals, 8 assists. Fantastic record for a first season, much better start than Robbie with Wolves. I'm amazed though that Keane was the dog's B when he broke into the Wolves team yet there are people who don't even know who Elliott is.

Jivin Turkey

I fail to see what all the hype about Stephen Elliot is about. I mean he hasnt even played a full season at first team level (and not even in the premiership), and his record is good (25 starts, 9 subs and 13 goals), but hardly great.

I hope he turns out to be brilliant just as much as the next Irish man, but Ive seen many strikers come and go before, and I think Elliot has a lot to do if he doesnt want to be one of these.

eirebhoy

Jivin, this is the best start to a career from any Irish striker that I can remember. BTW, don't forget those 8 assists, if he was a winger they'd be just as good as a goal.

Chucky the tree

eirebhoy wrote:

:eek:


13 goals, 8 assists. Fantastic record for a first season, much better start than Robbie with Wolves. I'm amazed though that Keane was the dog's B when he broke into the Wolves team yet there are people who don't even know who Elliott is.

haha i was thinking of the wrong elliott

GuanYin

Chucky the tree wrote:

haha i was thinking of the wrong elliott

Who were you thinking of?

cournioni

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I fail to see what all the hype about Stephen Elliot is about. I mean he hasnt even played a full season at first team level (and not even in the premiership), and his record is good (25 starts, 9 subs and 13 goals), but hardly great.

I hope he turns out to be brilliant just as much as the next Irish man, but Ive seen many strikers come and go before, and I think Elliot has a lot to do if he doesnt want to be one of these.

I totally agree with that.

thejollyrodger

I think Elliott will move into the priemership in the next season or so. I can see him being a good striker, I dont know if he will be great. Early days.

Morrison is in the form of his life for Ireland. He is doing a brilliant job in what Kerr is asking of him. The only reason I dropped him instead of Robbie is that 4-3-3 there is only one striker and Robbie has scored more goals than Morrison. If we only had a Ronaldo (Brasil) type player.

Boro

Heh. I suggested a 4-3-3 formation back here in the Formation against france thread and it got pretty much shot down.

Admittedly my inclusion of Maybury (and possibly Quinn) looks a bit suspect, but a quick swap for O'Shea/Kilbane and all is well. Heres what i wrote trying to justify it for the french game. I think most of my points are still valid.

Boro wrote:

Having Robbie Keane shackled to a position never seems to work too well, and Duff (while being excellent on the left wing) also operates with distinction when cutting inside and running at the heart of the defense; having him marooned out on the left wing is not always the best option. Reid also is a free spirit with where he plays. I believe those three players have the dynamism to change a game, IF they are given the freedom to do that.

Its all well and good having a rigid formation, but against a very good footballing team like the french, it can be shown up as precisely that - rigid and inflexible. Would it help you understand my point if i rephrased it as "Keane, Duff and Reid playing in an interchangeable front three with any one of them dropping deep or wide to run at the defense and play in the other two" ? That was the intention behind my statement at any rate.

Lets face it, none of the other strikers are really any good, even against rubbish opposition. Thats why i believe that playing a very solid, no-nonsense midfield with the dynamic option of duff and reid in front of them to make a midfield 5 when defending and make up a 4-3-3 when attacking, is a sound option. It would require discipline for the other 7 outfield players to hold their positions - with the full backs venturing to the half way line (or perhaps further if the pressure is off) to give that little extra support in midfield (as Finnan can anyway, and i believe maybury could also) - a 2-5-3.

That formation is fluid yet also offers protection. The french are going to be very attacking at home - it is a must win game for them considering the start they have had, they are going to be at us from the very start. Having that shielding wall of 3 defensive midfielders in front of the back four can offer that protection - yet crucially all 3 are good passers and good all round midfielders (not just defensive). The 3 floating players up front would never give the french defense a chance to settle, they would be constantly dragged out of position if they try to man mark. If they dont, then it gives the trio freedom to run at them and crack shots in.

Would you really prefer to see two banks of four and a big donkey up front for long balls to be punted at? Do you see where i am coming from now? Its a departure from the norm - very adventurous and probably not what kerr will pick. It is however something i think we should try.

BaZmO*

PHB wrote:

Keano plays in a 4-3-3 all the bloody time in United
He'd be the one with the most experience.

Given
Finnan-Dunne-O'Brien-O'Shea
Reid-Keano-Kilbane-Duff
Elliot-Keane

Is out best team, and the best team we'll have for a while imo

You'd pick Dunne and O'Brien before Cunningham? :eek:

B.

eirebhoy

Cunningham is probably our most important player after Given. Duff would be the most effective but we could cope without him.

BaZmO*

Exactly. He's the captain FFS!!!

B.

thejollyrodger

Its all well and good having a rigid formation, but against a very good footballing team like the french, it can be shown up as precisely that - rigid and inflexible. Would it help you understand my point if i rephrased it as "Keane, Duff and Reid playing in an interchangeable front three with any one of them dropping deep or wide to run at the defense and play in the other two" ? That was the intention behind my statement at any rate.

I totally agree. I think the useful days of 4-4-2 for Ireland are numbered. It was great since everyone knew the system and we wanted to keep the score down but we have different kind of players now and we want to go and win matches.

Duff and Ried should be given as much room as possible, Ried and Keane look (Shock) like they have an understanding. Duff is very good coming back to defend, so its not like we are left open on that side. Ried has to improve on that front, off the ball he doesnt do as much as the other players.


_______________Given_______

Finnan___Cunnigham___O'Brien__O'Shea

Kavanagh___Keano____Kilbane_

____Reid____Keane_____Duff

Jivin Turkey

eirebhoy wrote:

Jivin, this is the best start to a career from any Irish striker that I can remember. BTW, don't forget those 8 assists, if he was a winger they'd be just as good as a goal.

Im surprised you have such a short memory Eirebhoy, especially concerning Irish players

Robbie Keane had played, two seasons at Championship level, (scoring 24 in 67 games), a full season in the Premiership with Coventry (12 goals in 30 games), a few games in Serie A with Inter, and half a season with Leeds in the Premiership (9 goals in 12 starts), before he even turned 21.

Elliott is already 21 and only has half a season under his belt at Sunderland. He may have a few assists (Im sure Keane also has plenty to add to those GOALS but I dont have the stats) but Im not going to get carried away just yet.

KdjaCL

Just to add in about the main striker imo their are only a few in the world who could play that role at *international* level so this what i think would be req in that main striker someone like RVN Shevchenko Shearer(few years ago) Vieri Morientes(maybe) Eto but has to able to shoot with both feet and be damn good in the air. And be able to play with their back to goal and have decent skill with the ball to beat a defender.

Sadly be a while before we see anyone of that caliber playing for us

kdjac

eirebhoy

When I said "Best start to a career", I meant first season. Elliott has already scored more league goals than Keane managed to get in either of his first two seasons.

Jivin Turkey

eirebhoy wrote:

When I said "Best start to a career", I meant first season. Elliott has already scored more league goals than Keane managed to get in either of his first two seasons.

Well to be honest, for me it says a lot that his "career" is only starting at 21. So I wouldnt be building him up too much. Keane scored 16 goals in his second season did he not? And all at the tender age of 18.

Also didnt Clinton Morrison score something like 25 in his first season as an "Irishman"?

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Well to be honest, for me it says a lot that his "career" is only starting at 21.

TBF Kevin Keegan rarely seems to take chances. There are/was a load of Irish at Man City (Flood, Ireland, Birmingham, McCarthy, Whelan, Elliott). I have heard Keegan talk really, really, highly of every one of those players (most recently Ireland) but has only ever given Flood his chance. Flood then had a bad game and hasn't started since. Surely Bradley Wright Phillips is worth a shot up front considering they're finding it hard to score.

thejollyrodger

probably our best line out

_______________________Given

_____________Cunnigham______O'Brien

Finnan________________________________O'Shea


_________________Keane_______Kilbane

Ried__________________________________________Duff

_________________Morrison_____Keane

Chucky the tree

syke wrote:

Who were you thinking of?

the one for hull, hes quite high in the league 2 goal charts so i always presumed thats who everyone meant