"[They] danced on [his] head until his eyes popped out"

ReefBreak

This is paraphrased from a description of the Robert McCartney murder on the Irish Independent:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1344408&issue_id=12115
a

"Imagine if Joe Pesci in Goodfellas had taken a young man who tried to stop a fight in a pub. Imagine if he had two of his henchmen hold him down while he then gutted him with a knife.

Imagine if Pesci and the henchmen had then danced on the boy's head until his eyes popped out and imagine Pesci and the others then went back into the bar, cleaned up the evidence, warned everyone not to call an ambulance or to ever discuss, even amongst themselves, what they had seen. Firstly, we would have thought it was almost beyond the bounds of credibility, even in a movie. It would have been deemed unfit for consumption by audiences. It would have been regarded as the almost cartoonish violence of a Quentin Tarantino. "

Also from http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1344511&issue_id=12115:

"Robert 'Bert' McCartney, a father-of-two boys aged four and two, received the type of wounds not seen in Belfast since the terror inflicted in the mid-Seventies on innocent Catholics by the notorious loyalist assassin gang known as the Shankill Butchers. The nearest thing the butchery outside Magennis's Bar can be compared to in recent times are the ghoulish beheadings of prisoners videotaped and broadcast on the Internet by Al Qaeda and their Iraqi allies.

McCartney was cut from his navel to his breast bone with a carving knife. Then as he was held by other members of the gang his throat was repeatedly slashed, severing his jugular vein. As he lay bleeding to death on the pavement outside Magennis's Bar behind the High Court in south inner Belfast two of the IRA men jumped on his head while a third beat his prostrate body with a sewer rod.

The knifeman then turned on McCartney's friend, Brendan Devine, who was being held down by several other IRA men, and slit his throat from ear to ear. He then plunged the knife into his stomach and ripped a two-foot-long gash up to his neck. He also stabbed Devine in the side."

What do the Sinn Féin/IRA fan-boys have to say now to their decision to support/vote for Sinn Féin? I don't doubt that the leadership of the Sinn Féin (or should that be the IRA?) are repulsed by this murder, especially consider that Robert McCartney was a bodyguard of Martin McGuinness. But it should be remember that these psychopaths were allegedly involved in election campaigns in Dublin:

"Gardai believe that members of the Belfast 3rd Battalion have had close links with the Dublin IRA for several years. Several of the IRA men from Belfast have taken part in Sinn Fein election campaigns in Dublin."

Do the Sinn Féin/IRA fanboys on Boards.ie really know who or what they are voting for?

bus77

This is what happens when there's a culture within a culture. No need to imagine, it's called reality. The Italians over time merged into America. I would really really like to hear if you think this is/was possible in the north? for either side?

simu

bus77 wrote:

This is what happens when there's a culture within a culture. No need to imagine, it's called reality. The Italians over time merged into America. I would really really like to hear if you think this is/was possible in the north? for either side?

I don't think the two communites will ever become indistinguishable but they could certainly learn to live side by side peacefully. NI isn't a culture within a culture anyway - it's two cultures that don't get along (even that's a simplification as there are people there as well who don't fit into either group - nationalist or unionist). Also, I don't see why you say it's inevitable that extreme violence like this takes place when there's a "culture within a culture" - are you saying that minority cultures are by nature violent and should be assimilated or what?

I'm of the opinion that many, most likely all of the ground members of the IRA are just thugs and that politics is mostly a pretext for profitable criminal activity and general brutality. I can't see why, in this day and age, any sane person would get involved with them if they cared about problems facing the nationalist community. I think SF has been playing a bit of a balancing act in the past - trying to keep these guys happy and keep the peace process on track and that the boundaries between the 2 organisations haven't been 100% clear but by now, and after events like this, SF are going to have to drop these thugs if they want to retain any political credibility. In a perverse way, maybe this sort of thing was needed to make communities that might have still had some fondness for the IRA see that they do not hold their best interests at hand.

Then again, I've never voted for SF and I really don't get how anyone in the republic would think it's a good idea. No matter what they promise, what policies they propose, they're just too shady!

FTA69

I don't doubt that the leadership of the Sinn Féin (or should that be the IRA?) are repulsed by this murder

Well I do, and the McCartney family has welcomed both the IRA's statement regarding this matter and Sinn Féin's stance also.

especially consider that Robert McCartney was a bodyguard of Martin McGuinness.

No he wasn't, get your facts on the matter straight.

But it should be remember that these psychopaths were allegedly involved in election campaigns in Dublin:

Alledgedly being the operative word, besides, Republicans have disowned these murderers and will not stand in the way of anyone going to the police.

Phil_321

Yeah, they won't stand in your way of going to the police but they'll be waiting for you when you get back with the baseball bats and the knives.

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

.
Alledgedly being the operative word, besides, Republicans have disowned these murderers and will not stand in the way of anyone going to the police.

Right. The provisional movement are involved in a damage limitation exercise.

The people who committed this crime were alledgedly senior members of the IRA.



SF of their buddies in the IRA have not yet called on people to go to the police.

When police raided the Markets to try and recover forensic evidence from the homes of suspects, they were met by organised rioting. This was defended by Alex Maskey, the former Sinn Fein lord mayor of Belfast, who said: “It appears the PSNI is using last night’s tragic stabbing incident as an excuse to disrupt life within this community and the scale and approach of their operation is completely unacceptable and unjustifiable.”

Yesterday McCartney’s family issued a statement saying “a senior republican central to the murder of Robert has been seen by a member of the McCartney family in conversation with a potential key witness”. The family views this as a clear indication that “these cut-throat murderers are not being shunned by the republican movement”.

swiss

In all this discussion of whether the IRA are preventing people from coming forward or not I would like to present one question.

Why has not one of the 50+ witnesses to these horrific killings come forward with information to the PSNI?

Seriously, I can imagine that there is a level of distrust amongst Northern Nationalists towards the PSNI, distrust that Sinn Féin/IRA are more than willing to foster. However, I find it quite amazing that, in the case that there is no pressure on them from provisional republicans, not one of them are willing to give any information to the PSNI.

Contrast the rhetoric of the Sinn Féin/IRA leadership with the situation on the ground, where it is reported that the witnesses to this killing have been warned that they will be treated as informers should they give statments to the PSNI. While I maintain a skepticism of second hand reporting, I can only conclude that if nobody is prepared to come forward, there must be some level of intimidation preventing them from doing so. This view is corroborated by these reports.

bus77

simu wrote:

I don't think the two communites will ever become indistinguishable but they could certainly learn to live side by side peacefully. NI isn't a culture within a culture anyway - it's two cultures that don't get along (even that's a simplification as there are people there as well who don't fit into either group - nationalist or unionist).

Well thats us looking up, but the perspective of some growing up there is not the same. Some seek national/cultural Identity more than others, If no clear leadership/control over ones country is there, you get the "family/mafia" thing happening, and all the baggage that comes with it. Group law .ect

simu wrote:

Also, I don't see why you say it's inevitable that extreme violence like this takes place when there's a "culture within a culture" - are you saying that minority cultures are by nature violent and should be assimilated or what?

Well, the travellelers are perceived/perceive themselves to be a seperate cuture from the 'settled' community. Do they go/feel they should go, to the Guards to settle their big disputes? I don't know, I cant help but see the north as a sort of perpetual neutral zone, that lets neither side "settle" fully.

simu wrote:

I'm of the opinion that many, most likely all of the ground members of the IRA are just thugs and that politics is mostly a pretext for profitable criminal activity and general brutality.

I agree, but the problem is you can't even deal with the criminals in a complete way without somesort of backlash in one way or another. From what I can see every time there is even an arrest you get bottles and boos, further reinforcing the Us-vs-Them mentality.

simu wrote:

I can't see why, in this day and age, any sane person would get involved with them if they cared about problems facing the nationalist community.

I agree, but I dont feel like a traveller in Ireland. A nationalist community without a country will always be just that. In a way it's like a bunch of Mafia familys each looking to each respective "old country". But can the north ever be the "new country"?

simu wrote:

I think SF has been playing a bit of a balancing act in the past - trying to keep these guys happy and keep the peace process on track and that the boundaries between the 2 organisations haven't been 100% clear but by now, and after events like this, SF are going to have to drop these thugs if they want to retain any political credibility. In a perverse way, maybe this sort of thing was needed to make communities that might have still had some fondness for the IRA see that they do not hold their best interests at hand.

I still think this "take care of it ourselves" element will allways be strong in the north. Tbh, I would'nt even call the recent bank job a robbery. More like going out and catching buffalo

true

What sort of community do these 50+ people live in, if they are that afraid of the IRA that they will not go to the police with information.
Who would want to set up a businness or factory there ?

simu

bus77 wrote:

Well, the travellelers are perceived/perceive themselves to be a seperate cuture from the 'settled' community. Do they go/feel they should go, to the Guards to settle their big disputes?

Oh, so you're saying violence arises when there's a minority community that is alienated from the country's legal and law enforcement systems - fair enough then.

I agree, but the problem is you can't even deal with the criminals in a complete way without somesort of backlash in one way or another. From what I can see every time there is even an arrest you get bottles and boos, further reinforcing the Us-vs-Them mentality.

Well, if people in/connected with the IRA continue to act in such a barbaric way, surely they won't be seen as part of "us" anymore by nationalists? I don't know how anyone could think they were better off being intimidated by such groups instead of going to the PSNI for help. Witnesses in the MaCartney case might be staying quiet at the moment but surely, at least in their private thoughts, they must be thinkinhg that the situation is unacceptable.

I agree, but I dont feel like a traveller in Ireland. A nationalist community without a country will always be just that. In a way it's like two Mafia familys each looking to each respective "old country". But can the north ever be the "new country"?

It'll have to be. Nationalists and Unionists have equal rights there pretty much nowdays - if there are problems, they can go to the police, to the EU courts etc - there's no excuse for getting involved in the IRA etc.

Villain

SF and the IRA have made their position on this brutal murder quite, this murder was not act of the IRA.

SF and the IRA are not the reason why people don't go to the PSNI, people in the area have issues with policing.

This was a terrible brutal killing, but SF are not responible.

AmenToThat

irish1 wrote:

SF and the IRA have made their position on this brutal murder quite, this murder was not act of the IRA.

SF and the IRA are not the reason why people don't go to the PSNI, people in the area have issues with policing.

This was a terrible brutal killing, but SF are not responible.

The family (long time residents of the area) stated that it was IRA elements that committed the crime and at no time implicated SF.

Maybe those people now desperately looking for more ways to blacken the name of SF as the money laudering investigation hasnt ended up living up to its original hype are now claiming that the people of the Short Strand are now more scared to point the finger at SF members than IRA members?

Im not saying for one moment that this horrbile crime doesnt blacken the name of Republicans in general but trying to imply that SF were involved in the killing shows how desperete the 'Irish right' are getting.

swiss

irish1 wrote:

SF and the IRA have made their position on this brutal murder quite, this murder was not act of the IRA.

SF and the IRA are not the reason why people don't go to the PSNI, people in the area have issues with policing.

This was a terrible brutal killing, but SF are not responible.

IRA men committed this murder, and I hold the IRA and Sinn Féin responsible.

Why?

Because although the army council might not have sanctioned this brutal killing, the men responsible for this murder are under the de facto protection of the IRA. Sinn Féin, as an adjunct of the IRA share in the culpability. The very fact that the IRA men who carried out this act have not been turned in by either the IRA or Sinn Féin corroborates this assertion.

Sinn Féin/IRA can't have it both ways. They are prepared to state that these men did not act with IRA army council approval, that this murder has nothing to do with republicanism and that the McCartney family have a right to justice and then deny them that justice in the same breath by refusing to give information that can ensure that justice to the PSNI or indeed any authority. In this light, these Sinn Féin statements aren't just meaningless and hollow. They are an insult to the McCartney family and a testament to the hypocrisy and double standards of the provisional republican movement.

With regard to the witnesses and their unwillingness to come forward, I am prepared to accept that issues with policing may be a factor. If indeed there were only a few witnesses involved I may even be willing to accept, at a stretch, that this could mean that nobody would be prepared to come forward to the PSNI with information. However, in statistical terms, with 50+ witnesses I find it quite incredible that not one would come forward with such information. This, combined with street reports that the IRA have been threatening witnesses not to come forward to the PSNI leads me to believe that the IRA are perpetuating this travesty of justice, to which their Sinn Féin affiliates continue to pay lip service.

Sickening indeed.

ReefBreak

AmenToThat wrote:

The family (long time residents of the area) stated that it was IRA elements that committed the crime and at no time implicated SF.

Maybe those people now desperately looking for more ways to blacken the name of SF as the money laudering investigation hasnt ended up living up to its original hype are now claiming that the people of the Short Strand are now more scared to point the finger at SF members than IRA members?

Im not saying for one moment that this horrbile crime doesnt blacken the name of Republicans in general but trying to imply that SF were involved in the killing shows how desperete the 'Irish right' are getting.

The butcher that did this murder was reported to be a member of Sinn Féin. Also, how can you further blacken the name of a pile of vermin that call themselves Sinn Féin, when they have links to a murderous terrorist organisation? Note that for all the rubbish that Sinn Féin/IRA have come out with since the murder, not one single person among the 72 have some forward with evidence. Why? Because they know they'll be murdered themselves if they report anything.

How has the "money laudering investigation" not "ended up living up to its original hype"? It's very early days yet. If you don't think that Sinn Féin/IRA are behind the biggest money-laundering scam in the history of the state, you are even more naive than the usual juvenile naive IRA fan-boy that thinks Gerry Adams "is, like, totally kewl roysh?"

gurramok

ReefBreak wrote:

If you don't think that Sinn Féin/IRA are behind the biggest money-laundering scam in the history of the state, you are even more naive than the usual juvenile naive IRA fan-boy that thinks Gerry Adams "is, like, totally kewl roysh?"

I think you may be wrong here.
Drug barons in this country have had the biggest loot for donkey's years.
Look at how much the CAB has seized from them and there are lots more wealth to be seized.

I'm glad that there are armed guards at the entrance to my estate right now to protect people from them.

true

gurramok wrote:

I think you may be wrong here.
Drug barons in this country have had the biggest loot for donkey's years.
Look at how much the CAB has seized from them and there are lots more wealth to be seized.

I'm glad that there are armed guards at the entrance to my estate right now to protect people from them.

Wait until the CAB is going after the provos wealth. All these pubs and holiday homes and businesses ....

And I'm glad that we have the Gardai to protect society against "your guards".

gurramok

true wrote:

And I'm glad that we have the Gardai to protect society against "your guards".

What guards ?

Maybe you picked it up wrong.
I commented that there are\was armed special branch posted outside the housing estate where i live on a nightly basis to catch the drug barons. It was nice to see something being done to crack down on them for a change.

daveirl

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Villain

daveirl wrote:

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I have no evidence to say either way, but if they did Daveirl, they should be ashamed.

daveirl

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Villain

I didn't read or hear anything of that nature, and I would be surprised if SF people did, reoublicans in the area may have?

I'm not trying to avoid the question daveirl I'm just not informed on this incident.

Johnny_the_fox

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

i think the stone throwing happened when they went to the Short Stand to question people, a few days later. link

Victor

ReefBreak wrote:

I don't doubt that the leadership of the Sinn Féin (or should that be the IRA?) are repulsed by this murder, especially consider that Robert McCartney was a bodyguard of Martin McGuinness.

The allegation (as I understand it, I have no means of verifying it) is one of the murderers was once a bodyguard for Martin McGuinness.

Villain

I believe that allegation was bogus.

daveirl

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Johnny_the_fox

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

the friday afterwards.

Sand

The McCartney sisters have thanked the Irish government for their support, re-iterated that they believe that intimidation and the fear of being targeted by the IRA is discouraging people from co-operating with the PSNI and that their family wont be voting for SF/IRA until this is resolved.

Mr Adams on the other hand told Morning Ireland that the government was attempting to use the murder to attack SF/IRA and that the sisters were undertaking their campaign for justice in a way against Sinn Fein.

This for me underlines the nature of SF/IRA - their members/workers killed McCartney as stated by the survivor of the murder, they attempted to sabotage the PSNI investigations - who unacceptable as they apparently are were the only people humane enough to call an ambulance for the two men - by attempting to organise riots and through intimidation of witnessess, their political wing only launched a PR damage limitation exercise after the story made the national news painting them in a bad light, and as Mr Adams comments re-iterate they are only concerned about their image in the light of this murder.

They have come some way to actually mentioning the PSNI directly as a body witnessess might want to approach if they feel comftable doing so - but that still leaves the unspoken warning about what class of nationalist can feel comftable talking to the PSNI? Only an informer, and we know how the IRA deals with them. The fear is still there, and until SF/IRA come out and say what the sisters are asking them to say, that witnessess should go to the PSNI and give statements then the threat of violence hangs over the people there. As their cousin told Maskey on that BBC talkshow, the people there fear the IRA, not the PSNI - which stands at odds with Adams claims that it is the PSNI nationalists have a problem with.

mike65

Gerry Adams at it again, on RTE he described the McCartney murder is "manslaughter" so it was aggrivated but accidental eh?

Also last December Adams and SF came within a gnats whisker of signing up to the policing board yet here they are not able to say clearly and directly "go to the police" Thank God they did'nt sign up I say.

Last night, Enda Kenny said the only obstacle to progress in the peace process was the “republican addiction to crime”.

Speaking in Belfast, the Fine Gael leader pointed to Mr Adams’s describing the murder of Robert McCartney as “manslaughter” as revealing the true attitude of Sinn Féin. The party needed to adopt a more direct approach to getting witnesses to the murder to come forward, instead of just making “empty public statements”, he said.

At Leaders Questions to the Taoiseach yesterday, Sinn Féin came under fire from Mr Kenny, Labour leader Pat Rabbitte and Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins, who condemned the party leadership for its “vacuous doublespeak”.

Mike.

Roisin Dubh

To be fair, the British NI Secretary, Paul Murphy, admitted on TV a few days ago that the PIRA did not order the killing of Robert McCartney. However, a British minister admitted that members of the PIRA committed the murder. Just clarifying that. Hugh Orde also apparently said that the PIRA did not order it.

Even so, it seems that the PIRA are protecting the culprits and that alone is utterly contemptible. The PIRA need to get out of this arrogant mindset that no-one in their horrendous organisation is capable of committing a "crime" because someone everything they do is "political" and that consequently any of their members in jail are always "political prisoners". The Northern Bankjob does not seem to me to contribute in any way to "Irish freedom" nor does this grizzly butchery of an innocent man.

daveirl

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Slutmonkey57b

I'm amazed that anyone would be suprised by this crime at all.

Brutally murdering people for no good reason is all the IRA has ever been about.
Intimidating and brutalising the "community" they "protect" is also standard procedure. As is preventing a normal police force from ever coming into existance. SF's protection of the murderers tells us all we need to know about the reality of their concern for the people of NI.