"[They] danced on [his] head until his eyes popped out"

Victor

Roisin Dubh wrote:

To be fair, the British NI Secretary, Paul Murphy, admitted on TV a few days ago that the PIRA did not order the killing of Robert McCartney. However, a British minister admitted that members of the PIRA committed the murder. Just clarifying that. Hugh Orde also apparently said that the PIRA did not order it.

Order it, (probably) "no". That one of the gang was apparently sent to get a gun, but then they decided to use a knife which they found sooner takes this well beyond "there was a bit of horseplay and we didn't mean it, but we killed him". Would you absolve an oppurtunistic rapist on the same grounds - that he did plan it or didn't order it?

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

I'm amazed that anyone would be suprised by this crime at all.

Surprised (probably) "no", saddened, sicked, appalled that it happened, the manner in which it happened and that SF and the IRA are being wishy washy about resolving it while still claiming a democratic mandate "yes".

BCB

In a statement this evening on behalf of the Provisional IRA (just heard this on the 9 o clock RTE news) they have dismissed 3 of its volunteers regarding the murder of Robert McCartney,so maybe the people on here who constanly spout rubbish about the Provos might like to aknowledge the fact that the Ra are weeding out the undesirables from its organisation,ive never heard of anything like this before (not issuing a public statement dismissing volunteers) those responsible should do the decent thing and give themselves up

mike65

Yeah just saw that, the names of the 3 will be common knowledge a day or two I suspect. Is this a first for the provisonals I wonder?

so maybe the people on here who constanly spout rubbish about the Provos might like to aknowledge the fact that the Ra are weeding out the undesirables from its organisation

Which rubbish exactly? The ones about them being terrorists on the backs of their "own" community? As for weeding out undesirables, lets face it they have done what they've done under pressure from the McCartneys and the norths republican population.

Mike.

Roisin Dubh

Victor wrote:

Order it, (probably) "no". That one of the gang was apparently sent to get a gun, but then they decided to use a knife which they found sooner takes this well beyond "there was a bit of horseplay and we didn't mean it, but we killed him". Would you absolve an oppurtunistic rapist on the same grounds - that he did plan it or didn't order it?

No way absolutely not, but I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the leaders of an organisation for an action carried out without their fore knowledge or consent. Those whow personally committed the murders are pure scum and belong in jail. The bank-robbery is another matter. I do hold the IRA leadership personally responsible for that as the Gardai and PSNI both say that they ordered it.

BCB

mike65 wrote:

Yeah just saw that, the names of the 3 will be common knowledge a day or two I suspect. Is this a first for the provisonals I wonder?



Which rubbish exactly? The ones about them being terrorists on the backs of their "own" community? As for weeding out undesirables, lets face it they have done what they've done under pressure from the McCartneys and the norths republican population.

Mike.

I dont think they have done this because of pressure..the Provos have never tolerated undesirables in their ranks unlike other Republican micro groupings..and yes i believe this would be a first for the Provos

BuffyBot

they have dismissed 3 of its volunteers regarding the murder of Robert McCartney,so maybe the people on here who constanly spout rubbish about the Provos might like to aknowledge the fact that the Ra are weeding out the undesirables from its organisation

Good for them. What took them so long though..? And do you think it would have happened had there not been so much publicity/pressure applied? I highly doubt it - if they oculd have got away with it, and let the story slide out of public conciousness, they would have.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

BCB

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

not by me they werent,i thought it would`ve been obvious that "Republicans" were involved in his murder,these people who carried out this sickening act have to now face the possibility of not just being publically exposed but (unless they flee) a lenghty jail term as criminals.......

ishmael whale

BCB wrote:

not by me they werent,i thought it would`ve been obvious that "Republicans" were involved in his murder,these people who carried out this sickening act have to now face the possibility of not just being publically exposed but (unless they flee) a lenghty jail term as criminals.......

Fine, you may be beyond reproach on this score, but the threads on this and related themes have been swimming in a load of hear-no-evil see-no-evil stuff from SF supporters.

Interesting this development happens so soon after Adams meets the family himself. A suspicious person might think it’s consistent with Adams having some authority over the IRA and (gasp) even holding some senior post in that organization.

How safe can we feel if your chance of justice depends on Gerry taking a personal interest in your case after your family kick up one hell of a stink for a month?

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4178712
Fri 25 Feb 2005

Adams Meets Family of Pub Row Murder Victim

By Sennan Hogan, PA
Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams met the family of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney for the first time last night, it emerged today.
Mr Adams said he met the sisters, partner, and father of the fork lift driver who was beaten and stabbed in a pub row over three weeks ago.

The Sinn Fein president said of the hour-long meeting: “We had a very thorough and constructive engagement on the family’s search for justice and truth, we remain on contact.
“There is an onus on us to do everything we can to bring closure to this family, to have those responsible for their brother’s death to be brought to justice.”….

Victor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0225/sinnfein.html

IRA expels three members over McCartney death
25 February 2005 21:10

The Provisional IRA has said the organisation was not involved in the killing of Robert McCartney in Belfast on 30 January, but has said that a number of republicans were involved.

The statement says three members have been dismissed from the organisation.

One of the three had made a statement to a solicitor and the two others had been advised to take responsibility for their actions.

The statement goes on to say that any intimidation or threats in the name of the IRA or otherwise to any person who wishes to help the Mc Cartney family would not be tolerated.

Not tolerated or what? How does the IRA propose to enforce this fatwa?

mike65 wrote:

Yeah just saw that, the names of the 3 will be common knowledge a day or two I suspect. Is this a first for the provisonals I wonder?

Not really, quite often in the past such people would have been beaten, knee capped, "expelled" (under thread of death) or themselves murdered.

mike65

True but not with a public fanfare! I can only imagine that if the 3 dont play ball they will be subject to a rapidly approaching death by IRA enforcers.

Mike.

pogoń

BCB wrote:

I dont think they have done this because of pressure..the Provos have never tolerated undesirables in their ranks unlike other Republican micro groupings..and yes i believe this would be a first for the Provos

Congrats BCB.

Thats about the funniest thing I've ever seen written on this or any other site.

FTA69

Not tolerated or what? How does the IRA propose to enforce this fatwa?

So in the early parts of the thread we see people berating the IRA for allegedly protecting the murderers and then when they take initiatives to bring closure to the issue they are berated for that. The IRA have stated that people using their name to harass the McCartneys would also not be tolerated, surely you agree that that is a good thing?

Not really, quite often in the past such people would have been beaten, knee capped, "expelled" (under thread of death) or themselves murdered.

When you join Óglaigh na hÉireann you subject yourself to the army authority and agree to adhere to their rules and penalties for breaches of said rules. Anyone who recieved the treatment outlined by yourself brought it on themselves.

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

When you join Óglaigh na hÉireann you subject yourself to the army authority and agree to adhere to their rules and penalties for breaches of said rules. Anyone who recieved the treatment outlined by yourself brought it on themselves.

So you feel that Jean McConville, Eamon Collins and Frank Hegarty to name but a few all brought it on themslves?

FTA69

I have no sympathy for people who tout to the Brits and like it or not kymro, if these people were not informing to the crown they would have been left well alone. So yes, it was their actions that led directly to their own deaths.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

billy the squid

I have no sympathy for people who tout to the Brits and like it or not kymro, if these people were not informing to the crown they would have been left well alone. So yes, it was their actions that led directly to their own deaths.

with atitudes like that will it be any surprise that the mfcartney family wont get the justice they seek.

wheres the evidence that jean McConville was a "tout"

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

I have no sympathy for people who tout to the Brits and like it or not kymro, if these people were not informing to the crown they would have been left well alone. So yes, it was their actions that led directly to their own deaths.

I find the beliefs expressed in the quote above to be fascistic and nasty, and could well imagine someone of a similar mindset to the writer reporting the subversive beliefs of his friends and neighbours to some organisation such as the NKVD or Gestapo had they been born in another time or place.

If, as is stated without equivocation 'Jean McConville deserved her fate' ,would the writer personally have had the stomach for the torturing and killing, or would this unpleasant, (but necessary) task have been left for others?

Or would the writer merely have acted as informant, cheerleader and apologist for the murderers and torturers?

pogoń

billy the squid wrote:

wheres the evidence that jean McConville was a "tout"

The 'proof' was that she had a radio transmitter in her possession which she used to communicate with the British army.

This, however, has been shown to be untrue as the British army did not at that time issue radios to its agents.

It is bizarre to imagine that one member of the family (one son) could have been interned on a prison ship by the Brits, while the mother was busy working as a spy.

The truth is that she assisted a dying British soldier and was killed by the IRA to set an example to others.

Incidentally if FTA approves of the torturing to death of a mother of ten for a simple act of humanity I would hate to think that one day an evil fate might befall him.

FTA69

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Indeed they have daveirl, but the individuals in question admitted their actions, Collins even did so in a book he wrote, Hegarty also ran off to England and then later came back to Ireland and admitted his spying. The wrongful killing of people in the mistaken belief that they were informers is indeed a terrible thing, but it doesn't change my belief that British agents are the most legitimate of targets.

The 'proof' was that she had a radio transmitter in her possession which she used to communicate with the British army.

This, however, has been shown to be untrue as the British army did not at that time issue radios to its agents.

How do you know pogón? Because the British Army said so? If you want a firsthand account of a British spy handler read Matin Ingram's "Stakeknife", while his organisation (the FRU) only really came into play in the early 80s he describes the amateurish practices of his predecessors which included supplying transmittors etc. The Brits have done and will do anything in the name of surveillance, and the safety of their agents is the last thing on their minds.

It is bizarre to imagine that one member of the family (one son) could have been interned on a prison ship by the Brits, while the mother was busy working as a spy.

No it isn't, informers are individuals of their own right and it has often been the case that a member of a Republican family has become a tout while their relatives and friends are IRA members.

The truth is that she assisted a dying British soldier and was killed by the IRA to set an example to others.

Incidents like this occasionnally occured in West Belfast around that time but you don't see the few grannies who gave cups of tea to soldiers being shot do you?

the torturing to death

She wasn't tortured, she was shot in the head.

Victor

FTA69 wrote:

it doesn't change my belief that British agents are the most legitimate of targets.

"Are"? You don't even bother to use the past tense "were"? Do you therefore agree that nationalists are legitimate targets because they communicate with the Irish government?

true

FTA69 is an evil bit of work that makes my stomack sick.

For example , he says "Incidents like this occasionnally occured in West Belfast around that time but you don't see the few grannies who gave cups of tea to soldiers being shot do you?" He does not mention the thirteen other women from the area around Jean McConville being beaten up and tatted and feathered for "fraternising " with British soldiers in the time before Jean McConvilles murder. Poor Jean McConville was abducted, tortured andmurdered to show an example. Just like FTA69's "touts" were / are treated, as be boasts. What a sick child. He needs help.

ishmael whale

It looks like SF are still on the ropes with their own supporters over this issue.

The issue still remains – what if the victim was not an SF supporter from an area where SF is usually staunchly supported? Is it not safe to assume that, in the absence of this very concrete political pressure from within its own support base, SF would simply ride out any storm with the usual blanket denials?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0228/2594294165HM1NORTH.html
The McCartney family has rejected as inadequate the IRA's response to Robert McCartney's murder, as Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams signalled that the IRA may be compelled to take some dramatic initiative to end pressure on republicans, writes Gerry Moriarty, Northern Editor….

FTA69

FTA69 is an evil bit of work that makes my stomack sick.

I'm crushed.

He does not mention the thirteen other women from the area around Jean McConville being beaten up and tatted and feathered for "fraternising " with British soldiers

Incidents which occured in Ireland during the War of Independence as well as Europe after it was liberated by the Free French and other partisans in 1945.

What a sick child. He needs help.

I'd rather be percieved as that than come across as a self-hating toadie.

true

FTA69 wrote:

I'm crushed..

Sick. The subject is "they danced on his head until his eyes popped out " and you say you're crushed.

FTA69 wrote:

Incidents which occured in Ireland during the War of Independence as well as Europe after it was liberated by the Free French and other partisans in 1945.
.

So ?

FTA69 wrote:

I'd rather be percieved as that than come across as a self-hating toadie.

Who mentioned toads ? Or self hating ? Irrelevant. Self hating people do not condone the abduction , torture and murder of people. Neither, I suspect , do toads. Perhaps if FTA69 directed some of the hatred he has for other groups then he may be a bit healthier.

the_syco

Congratulations, FTA69. Ignore the people who critize you, who believe the lies of the British. They are proberly the same one's who say that the US lies all teh time. The difference is that it suits them to believe the British lies.

I would also defend the IRA, but I've been "out of the loop" for a bit too long. I only defend when I know all the facts. And I don't mean those lies that the British goverment tell you.

=-=

As for Jean McConville, she was married to an ex-soldier of the British Army. Also, she died because she was a small and not very important cog in the British Army's intelligence-gathering machine who had the misfortune to cross paths with two ruthless men. One was the British officer who ran her as an agent; the other was the senior IRA figure in Belfast who decided that her secret death would suit his purposes.

true

the_syco wrote:

Congratulations, FTA69. They are proberly the same one's who say that the US lies all teh time. .

I " proberly do not say that the US lies all teh time"

the_syco wrote:

The difference is that it suits them to believe the British lies..

What "British" lies, and how would it suit anyone to believe a "British" lie more than an "Irish" one ?

the_syco wrote:

I would also defend the IRA, but I've been "out of the loop" for a bit too long. I only defend when I know all the facts. And I don't mean those lies that the British goverment tell you..

You " would also defend the IRA " ..... well below you justify their action in the abduction , murder and torture of what most people north and south believe to have been an innocent woman.

the_syco wrote:

As for Jean McConville, she was married to an ex-soldier of the British Army.
.

So what , she was an impoverished widow who had married a catholic, had ten children. What does the fact he was an ex - Soldier have to do with it. More than one member of the IRA over the years was an ex British soldier.
No excuse to murder their widows.

the_syco wrote:

Also, she died because she was a small and not very important cog in the British Army's intelligence-gathering machine who had the misfortune to cross paths with two ruthless men. One was the British officer who ran her as an agent; the other was the senior IRA figure in Belfast who decided that her secret death would suit his purposes.

No proof of this. She died because she went to the aid of a dying British soldier - someones son, on the side of the road. She hads not the time or ability to be a " spy " for her government, even if she wanted to.

mike65

More good news for Shinners everywhere...

from indo.

Sisters told to get their US visas


FIVE women from Belfast, and not the usual array of Northern politicians, are hoping to be George W Bush's guests of honour at the White House on St Patrick's Day, writes Susan Garraty.

Having ditched Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley, the White House is contemplating inviting the sisters of murder victim Robert McCartney to grace the upstairs East Room of the White House on March 17.

A White House spokesman said: "We would encourage them to put forward their visa paperwork."

Paula McCartney said: "I would hope that in some way, at the very least, George Bush would publicly support and call for justice for my brother."

Mike.

unme

FTA69 wrote:

... besides, Republicans have disowned these murderers and will not stand in the way of anyone going to the police.

FTA69, where do you get your information from?

People in Belfast, the national and local media, and the 'representatives' of certain republican organisations have informed me otherwise.

When witnesses to the murder say that they have been intimidated by republicans - and as recent as the past few days, then I am inclined to believe them.

Reality is not what you would like to see happen. It is what actually happens. I know that the reality of this situation doesn't make for good publicity, but accept it. Otherwise, people may get the impression that you are merely trading in propaganda, and that does nobody's credibility any good.

unme

the_syco wrote:

Congratulations, FTA69. Ignore the people who critize you, who believe the lies of the British.

The importance of your congratulations is somewhat diminished by the remainder of your argument. I voted for a Sinn Fein candidate in a recent local election, so I hardly fall within your generalisation.

Mentioning the British in every argument is not a great idea when communicating with people who have not been taken in by your brand of republicanism. I happen to believe the truth when it is proven as such, whether it comes from the Irish, British, or Sinn Fein for that matter.

the_syco wrote:

As for Jean McConville, she was married to an ex-soldier of the British Army. Also, she died because she was a small and not very important cog in the British Army's intelligence-gathering machine who had the misfortune to cross paths with two ruthless men. One was the British officer who ran her as an agent; the other was the senior IRA figure in Belfast who decided that her secret death would suit his purposes.

Jean McConville died because she met a murderer. We don't need to make up anything to explain that fact.