"[They] danced on [his] head until his eyes popped out"

Cork

Jean McConville was murdered. The likes of SF and their buddies in the IRA don't even see this as a crime.

SF is said to be opposed to the British presence in this country - but that party take much money from the british state in the form of expenses.

They are quiet willing to take the Queens Shilling.

But they don't adise or encourage people to go to the police regarding the robert mccartney murder.

Hopefully the NI voter will see thru SF. They harp on about human rights - but thats as far as it goes.

The most basic human right - is the right to life.

AS fact often lost on the likes of the IRA.

Villain

Hugh Orde said today that if people had problems going to the PSNI they could got to a solicitor.

When SF said the same thing people here bashed them, so why aren't the same people bashing Hugh Orde???

I'm glad to see Mr Orde supports SF's position, just a pitty FG could ammend their motion before the Dail to include what Sinn Fein and now Hugh Orde have said

unme

irish1 wrote:

Hugh Orde said today that if people had problems going to the PSNI they could got to a solicitor.

When SF said the same thing people here bashed them, so why aren't the same people bashing Hugh Orde???

There is a big difference between political/paramilitary organisations threatening people if they give information to the police, and a senior policeman recognising that fact and suggesting an alternative route.

To suggest that Hugh Orde is taking the same line on this as Sinn Fein would be wrong. He is clearly recognising the intimidation, and is allowing republicans an alternative. Fair play to him.

irish1 wrote:

I'm glad to see Mr Orde supports SF's position,..

You are joking, right? Sinn Fein's position is that no republican should report a crime to the police, I doubt that Hugh Orde is saying the same thing. But your comment was humorous, in an otherwise serious thread.

mike65

Huge Orde also made it clear that using a solicitor was merely the "way in", the witness would still have to be willing to testify.

Mike.

Villain

Unme, "Speaking at a meeting of the North's Policing Board today, Mr Orde said he would be happy if people passed information to solicitors or clergymen if they did not want to approach the police."

Taken from breakingnews.ie

That is exactly what Sinn Fein have said, so Hugh Orde is saying the same thing as Sinn Fein.

I'm comment was that people here bashed Sinn Fein for saying the same thing!!!

unme

irish1 wrote:

That is exactly what Sinn Fein have said, so Hugh Orde is saying the same thing as Sinn Fein.

I'm comment was that people here bashed Sinn Fein for saying the same thing!!!

I understand your point, irish1. I disagree with your last statement though.

People "bashed" Sinn Fein because of their motives for saying it. Hugh Orde is not saying not to go to the police, he is merely offering an alternative first-step to those who are unwilling to go to the police due to intimidation. Sinn Fein, on the other hand, would be seen to be part of that intimidation.

Villain

unme wrote:

I understand your point, irish1. I disagree with your last statement though.

People "bashed" Sinn Fein because of their motives for saying it. Hugh Orde is not saying not to go to the police, he is merely offering an alternative first-step to those who are unwilling to go to the police due to intimidation. Sinn Fein, on the other hand, would be seen to be part of that intimidation.

I don't believe thats true, Sinn Fein said firstly people should go to whatever authority they felt comfortable with, they later clarified that if people were comfortable with going to the police service they should, but if not go to a solictor, preist etc.

People here bashed SF for saying this, saying what good would it do to go to a solictor or priest etc, my point is the same people don't seem to have any issue with Hugh Orde saying it

Sponge Bob

irish1 wrote:

I don't believe thats true, Sinn Fein said firstly people should go to whatever authority they felt comfortable with

SF said FIRSTLY that they believed the IRA were not responsible. Some time later when the 'investigation' was under way within the IRA on who to blame SF then came up with a fudge as to ' who could' be approached ........the fudge being that the statement would maybe not have any validity in the eyes of the Court Service

SF never condemned the street attacks on the PSNI in the few days following the murder when the PSNI was trying to get statements and forensics. I'm sure they know who organised the attacks on the PSNI, any chance of an expulsion or two there d'ya think Irish1 ?

Giving a statement to Fr. Pat down the Road is not a first step towards producing admissible evidence in Court IMO and if no admissible evidence is produced in court then the Short Strand Butchers will walk .

SF always had popular support in Catholic working class areas in the North such as the Short Strand , of that I have no doubt . The eruption of popular resistance to their party and the fundraising arm has rattled them badly and most deservedly so .

Villain

Sponge Bob wrote:

SF said FIRSTLY that they believed the IRA were not responsible. Some time later when the 'investigation' was under way within the IRA on who to blame SF then came up with a fudge as to ' who could' be approached ........the fudge being that the statement would maybe not have any validity in the eyes of the Court Service

SF never condemned the street attacks on the PSNI in the few days following the murder when the PSNI was trying to get statements and forensics. I'm sure they know who organised the attacks on the PSNI, any chance of an expulsion or two there d'ya think Irish1 ?

Giving a statement to Fr. Pat down the Road is not a first step towards producing admissible evidence in Court IMO and if no admissible evidence is produced in court then the Short Strand Butchers will walk .

SF always had popular support in Catholic working class areas in the North such as the Short Strand , of that I have no doubt . The eruption of popular resistance to their party and the fundraising arm has rattled them badly and most deservedly so .

Sponge Bob the IRA were not responsible members of the group were, I believe the Family stated that they were satisfied that this was not an IRA operation.

I agree if members of Sinn Fein attacked police while they were trying to gather evidence they should be expelled from the party.

As for giving a statement to Fr. Pat down the road, Hugh Orde the head of the police force that is investigating this terrible murder has said he would be happy if people passed information to solicitors or clergymen if they did not want to approach the police. I think we should accept he knows best how to ge justice in this case.

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

Sponge Bob the IRA were not responsible members of the group were, I believe the Family stated that they were satisfied that this was not an IRA operation.

Just a thought. If the IRA have washed their hands of those involved, then why are people so scared sh*tless to come forward? Y'see, the IRA is still involved since those who did it will probably use IRA resources to 'sort' anyone who does step forward.

Irrespective of whether it was sanctioned from on high or not (which I believe it was not) or whatever, they are involved since a great deal many of those involved in the attack and subsequent threatening of every witness on the scene were and still are members of the IRA.

Unfortunately, blood isn't easy to wash off your clothes. And everyone else knows that and wont step forward for fear of getting it in the neck (literally) by some demented sadist who claims to represent the EYE-ERR-AYYY

As for giving a statement to Fr. Pat down the road, Hugh Orde the head of the police force that is investigating this terrible murder has said he would be happy if people passed information to solicitors or clergymen if they did not want to approach the police. I think we should accept he knows best how to ge justice in this case.

I wouldn't say he's saying "I know hest hwo to get justice" as more a case of "please give us information so we can screw these animals to the wall" ...

Sponge Bob

irish1 wrote:

Sponge Bob the IRA were not responsible members of the group were, I believe the Family stated that they were satisfied that this was not an IRA operation.

No Irish1

The IRA Were Collectively Responsible.

The lack of discipline and the sheer arrogance that led them to believe , 12 of them collectively and in the knowledge of how the IRA operated , that they could get away with it is indicative of the inner disciplinary processes within the organisation.

For a small isolated enclave like the Short Strand it was a massive shock to see their 'protectors' turn on a respected non IRA member and Butcher him, because they were a bit pished after a parade in Derry that day. Nothing short of the unilateral expulsion and the naming of the 12 Short Strand Butchers will suffice to allay the fears of the Nationalist community .

Sherlock

If saying "it wasn't an IRA operation" means there wasn't an army council meeting that decided Robert McCartney should be killed then you're right but that doesn't absolve the IRA of guilt, they have to be responsible for the actions of their members. They also know the identities of the killers yet they haven't identified them to the PSNI, maybe the IRA could go to Fr. Pat down the road and give their names to him?. Then again unless they're willing to give evidence in court its a waste of time giving info to anyone.
Thats why Sinn Fein are apparently encouraging people to give anyone information to anyone other than the PSNI, it looks like they're trying to help but in reality they know that " Fr. Pat" can't do anything with info unless the person will go all the way to court and name names. Hugh Orde is obviously unwilling to cut off the likes of " Fr. Pat" because hes keen on getting as much info as he can get.

Villain

Lemming wrote:

Just a thought. If the IRA have washed their hands of those involved, then why are people so scared sh*tless to come forward? Y'see, the IRA is still involved since those who did it will probably use IRA resources to 'sort' anyone who does step forward.

Irrespective of whether it was sanctioned from on high or not (which I believe it was not) or whatever, they are involved since a great deal many of those involved in the attack and subsequent threatening of every witness on the scene were and still are members of the IRA.

Unfortunately, blood isn't easy to wash off your clothes. And everyone else knows that and wont step forward for fear of getting it in the neck (literally) by some demented sadist who claims to represent the EYE-ERR-AYYY

Nice to see your actually joining the discussions now.

I certainly accept that members of the IRA may have and even still are intimidating people, and thats why so few people have come forward, but I do not believe Sinn Fein are partaking in that activity. I believe Sinn Fein want the people who carried out this crime brought to justice and I believe they are doing their best to help that come about. They may be able to do more on a local level I'm not sure, but I would like to think if they could do any more to help bring these people to justice they would.

Lemming wrote:

I wouldn't say he's saying "I know hest hwo to get justice" as more a case of "please give us information so we can screw these animals to the wall" ...

I think his statement was very clear he wants people to come forward with information, and if they don't want to go to the PSNI with that information then they should give it to a clergyman or solicitor.

As I have said several times now he is saying the same thing that Sinn Fein have said.

Villain

I agree with you Sponge Bob that the IRA should not have allowed this to happen but they as a group did not carry out this murder, that is the point I was trying to make.

Sherlock, I think your been cynical in saying that the reason Sinn Fein asked people to go to the clergy etc, if they weren't willing to go to the PSNI, was to try and prevent justice. Sinn Fein have said people should go to the PSNI if they feel comfortable.

Sherlock, the reason SF have asked people to go to solicitors etc, is because they know some people don't trust or respect the PSNI and they don't want that to stop people giving information. I believe this is the same reason Hugh Orde has said the same.

If you have any proof to back up your claim that Sinn Fein have taken their position to prevent justice please provide it.

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

Nice to see your actually joining the discussions now.

I joined the discussions a while ago - you and the others on the 'list' were too busy flapping over it rather than paying attention. But I digress...

I certainly accept that members of the IRA may have and even still are intimidating people, and thats why so few people have come forward, but I do not believe Sinn Fein are partaking in that activity. I believe Sinn Fein want the people who carried out this crime brought to justice and I believe they are doing their best to help that come about. They may be able to do more on a local level I'm not sure, but I would like to think if they could do any more to help bring these people to justice they would.

Whilst I think that SF want these people dealt with "in theory", the reality of what they have done/said & continue to do/say is very much at odds with that theoretical desire. The only reason I believe that SF want these people dealt with is because like with the splinter group bombing of Omagh, the IRA have scored an own-goal in the PR stakes and it's weakening SF's hand.

If they were were doing their best, they would be telling people /to go to/ the PNSI instead of this half-baked wishy-washy stuff about third parties. They know fine well that unless a person is prepared to take the stand in a court of law and face the IRA, they are in no danger of reprisals. It's a very very cynical PR exercise irish1. Nothing more.

I think his statement was very clear he wants people to come forward with information, and if they don't want to go to the PSNI with that information then they should give it to a clergyman or solicitor.

As I have said several times now he is saying the same thing that Sinn Fein have said.

He's not. SF are saying what they're saying for reasons which I already mentioned. He's saying what he's saying because he's desperate to get information. ANY information. But people will still need to take the stand in court....

Sherlock

I assume that wasn't a serious question Irish1, who on earth would have proof of that.
I repeat two things, if the IRA want the killers punished why don't they name them?, and what good is it going to do giving names to anyone other than the cops if you're not willing to go to court knowing those IRA psychos are still on the loose and what they're capable of doing.

Sponge Bob

irish1 wrote:

I certainly accept that members of the IRA may have and even still are intimidating people, and thats why so few people have come forward, but I do not believe Sinn Fein are partaking in that activity. I believe Sinn Fein want the people who carried out this crime brought to justice and I believe they are doing their best to help that come about. They may be able to do more on a local level I'm not sure, but I would like to think if they could do any more to help bring these people to justice they would..

2 Things kinda BARK at me out of that statement of yours Irish1

1. Can you simply say that you condemn Short Strand Butchers and all who willingly covered up for them and

2. Can you explain why Gerry Kelly or Gerry Adams NEVER went down to the Short Strand to help with the following 'process' , as you YOURSELF put it

I believe Sinn Fein want the people who carried out this crime brought to justice and I believe they are doing their best to help that come about.

I'd like an answer to those 2 questions from you Irish1 please and yes I am aware that Morrisson lurked about the fringes of a local public meeting last weekend but Morrisson is NOT the Party Leader and Kelly is the one who has been the 'spokesperson for SF all along on this . Nor is Morrisson an Assembly member unlike Kelly and Adams although the local SF Assembly member may be Maskey in South Belfast .

Sand

Sherlock, the reason SF have asked people to go to solicitors etc, is because they know some people don't trust or respect the PSNI and they don't want that to stop people giving information. I believe this is the same reason Hugh Orde has said the same.

Irish1 have you actually read what Hugh Orde said or are you merely siezing on the daily "what to think" communique from SF/IRA HQ?

He said that if people are uncomftable with approaching the PSNI they should approach a solicitor or whatever as a *first* step in *building confidence*...obviously to make a proper statement to the PSNI.

This is *not* what SF/IRA have said at all. They have said make a statement, dont talk to the PSNI or assist their investigation because obviously the local priest fight crimes by night, and somehow youll wind up in court despite not making a statement to the PSNI who provides the prosecution with evidence. There stated views, which you support are nonsense and part of a PR exercise that works on only the most gullible.

Squaletto

Hi Guys, Just a short question. How many people witnessed the actual murder. I am not talking about the fracas in the bar but the actual murder. Apparently there were five men involved in the attack but no witnesses according to some journalists from the north. Another question, how can justice be served on those thugs if nobody saw the act of knifing mr Mc Cartney? The whole uproar about witnesses being intimidated surely is null and void if it goes to court. No person can be charged with murder solely on the evidence of witnesses who saw the fight in the bar. Surely it is down to those who saw the men who did the act of murder. No witnesses...no conviction. I think it is this fact that Mr Adams is going on about now re telling the people involved to give themselves up to the authorities. I could be wrong but I'm sure some of you here will gladly let me know the truth if I have got it wrong!!!
Have a listen to this and let me know!!! http://www.rte.ie/radio1/story/1039946.html

Sand

They cut Devines throat in the bar in front of 50 or so people - 50 witnesses to terrified to come forward. Devine then survived the slaughter outside the bar - theres one witness. Sorry Squalletto, no easy escape for the boys of the old brigade on this one.

Lemming

Squaletto wrote:

Hi Guys, Just a short question. How many people witnessed the actual murder. I am not talking about the fracas in the bar but the actual murder. Apparently there were five men involved in the attack but no witnesses according to some journalists from the north. Another question, how can justice be served on those thugs if nobody saw the act of knifing mr Mc Cartney? The whole uproar about witnesses being intimidated surely is null and void if it goes to court. No person can be charged with murder solely on the evidence of witnesses who saw the fight in the bar. Surely it is down to those who saw the men who did the act of murder. No witnesses...no conviction. I think it is this fact that Mr Adams is going on about now re telling the people involved to give themselves up to the authorities. I could be wrong but I'm sure some of you here will gladly let me know the truth if I have got it wrong!!!
Have a listen to this and let me know!!! http://www.rte.ie/radio1/story/1039946.html

Which part of 70-odd witnesses seing a large group of men chase the victims outside after arming themselves with a large knife and sewer rods whilst they [the witnesses] had to sit inside the pub in silence listening to the screams of the victims being beaten?

"no witnesses no conviction" my f*cking arse.

"Well your honour ... he died of a knife wound, but I didn't use the knife y'see. I only took it out with me and beat him mercilessly with it. I didn't cut him with it despite hitting him repeatedly with it. When I say hit, I meant stab. ANd no your honour, I am fully suggesting that he did not die of the multiple knife wounds which were not inflicted by me whilst I wielded the knife"

*cough*

Villain

Sand wrote:

Irish1 have you actually read what Hugh Orde said or are you merely siezing on the daily "what to think" communique from SF/IRA HQ?

He said that if people are uncomftable with approaching the PSNI they should approach a solicitor or whatever as a *first* step in *building confidence*...obviously to make a proper statement to the PSNI.

This is *not* what SF/IRA have said at all. They have said make a statement, dont talk to the PSNI or assist their investigation because obviously the local priest fight crimes by night, and somehow youll wind up in court despite not making a statement to the PSNI who provides the prosecution with evidence. There stated views, which you support are nonsense and part of a PR exercise that works on only the most gullible.

I'm a little busy to reply to each of you at the moment but I'll try later.

Just one quick point Sand, Sinn Fein did not say "dont talk to the PSNI or assist their investigation".

Now if you have evidence to show where Sinn Fein said that please post it or retract that statement.

Sand

Now if you have evidence to show where Sinn Fein said that please post it or retract that statement.

Ehhhhh, having given it some thought, I wont be retracting that statement.

SF/IRA organised the riots designed to disturb PSNI investigations, they have engaged in a widely reported campaign of intimidation and coverup where people have been told not to go to the PSNI or if they have to, make up some story instead that they were out in the jacks.

Seeing as were in retracting mood, how about you retract your statement that Hugh Orde is supporting SF/IRAs position with regard to approaching 3rd parties to give statement rather than the PSNI?

Sponge Bob

irish1 wrote:

I'm a little busy to reply to each of you at the moment but I'll try later..

My 2 questions still outstanding !

Villain

Sand I provided the source of the report I used to show what Hugh Orde said, and going by that report I believe he is supporting SF's position by calling for the same.

Sponge Bob, I'll back to those questions asap.

Villain

Sponge Bob wrote:

1. Can you simply say that you condemn Short Strand Butchers and all who willingly covered up for them and

Yes I condmen them 100%

Sponge Bob wrote:

2. Can you explain why Gerry Kelly or Gerry Adams NEVER went down to the Short Strand to help with the following 'process' , as you YOURSELF put it

I believe Gerry Kelly was in short strand and Gerry Adams has met with the family, but as I said back a few posts

They may be able to do more on a local level I'm not sure, but I would like to think if they could do any more to help bring these people to justice they would.

That includes going to Short Strand and talking to the witnesses.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask, but I'm pretty busy at the moment so I might not respond straight away

Sponge Bob

Thanks Irish1

Squaletto

"no witnesses no conviction" my f*cking arse.

Language please!!!!

Going back to my point earlier it's a fact that when a crime happens it is imperative that witnesses come forward and testify. If they don't then the crime will go unpunished. That is what I was saying boys!!!

the_syco

Lemming wrote:

Which part of 70-odd witnesses seing a large group of men chase the victims outside after arming themselves with a large knife and sewer rods whilst they [the witnesses] had to sit inside the pub in silence listening to the screams of the victims being beaten?

"no witnesses no conviction" my f*cking arse.

When the courts say "no witnesses", they mean of the actaul murder. The thing about the people seeing the men run out is circumstansal evidence.

But, if an alarm goes off outside your window, you'll look, don't you? Likewise, when there was screams, people would have looked outside their windows, and someone must have seen something.
I'd say some of those people are afraid of speaking. SF can say anything they want, but one fact will stick in the people's mind; the IRA have a history of swift dealings with people who they find grass to "the enemy", so I doubt anyone will come forward, openly, to the PSNI about it.

And here's the loophole. The priest, or solicitor wouldn't be "the enemy", so they may goto them first.

=-=

I'd say the PSNI have a good idea who it is, from the witnesses in the pub, of who was involved, but untill they find out who committed the murder, they won't make any moves.

For which is better;
5 guys in jail for manslaughter (as they can't pin it on anyone)
OR
@ least 1 guy in jail for murder, the rest in jail for other related charges?

I'd say they'll hold out till they can pin it on one of them first.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

That includes going to Short Strand and talking to the witnesses.

What a crock of shít has developed in the while,I've been off this forum...
It appears to me that the only reason that senior SF figures are talking to that family now is that theres an election coming up.
They took long enough and squirmed long enough before they got to the current position.
They were on the ropes, under pressure, shur a 4 yr old could see through whats going on.
They are going to have to sacrifice their buddies to the justice that they deserve because of the brave stance of the victims sisters.
And theres an election in a couple of months...