World of BoreCraft

Memnoch

adnans - nothing wrong with healthy debate?

anyway Spacedog I think your perception of PvP lacking skill seems to be due to perhaps not having enough experience in it or playing against newbs. A lot of times in MMO's when ppl die they whine about other players being overpowered etc, but the fact is skill plays a huge advantage in this game. Let me give you an example of a fight I had today and you can jugde for yourself if there is skill involved or not.

Before I start I'd like to point out that you should keep in mind that MMORPG is a rock/paper/scissors genre in terms of class balance. Certain classes are designed to beat other classes.

Today as I was riding along on my horse in STV i came accross a rogue and a paladin both a few levels lower than me. THe thing is, in the PvP in this game lower levels dont' matter as much as numbers, unless ofc there is a HUGE level gap.

So the fight starts and they rush me. I hit 5 for frost nova to freeze them in place. Turn away and hit Q to blink away from them (these are my own key bindings). Then I target the paladin and hit 6 to cast poly morph to turn him into a sheep. Then I hit F1 to target myself and hit E to bandage myself. All this happens in under 8 seconds because thats how long frost nova lasts! By now the rogue has broken free and charges me down. I hit him with my two insta nukes, while i wait for my blink to refresh. It does, I blink away again, turn around nuke him, again he is closing the gap, a couple more nukes while i try to kite him. The rogue gets low on hp and starts moving away from me. I turn to chase him, by now the paladin is free of polymorph and is casting a heal on the rogue. I switch targets to paladin. I run towards the paladin in a panic becuase if he gets the heal off i loose. I manage to get in range JUST in the nick of time to cast my counterspell that stops his spell and prevents him from using any other spell in that spell type for 10 seconds. I nuke the rogue, and use my staff to get in the last hit to melee him to death as i'm now out of mana as the paladin is charging me. He stuns me, I blink out of it, poly him once again and use my once every 10 minute ability to restore my mana. I nuke the paladin, he comes out of poly and panics and starts to run away. At this point I've won. I chase him down and kill him a little later.

From my point of view, I had to use lots of different abilities, including, poly, frost nova, bandage, evocation, fireball, fireblast, arcane missiles, arcane explosion, counter spell and blink. In the correct combination and at the right time in order to be able to win the fight. Especially since some of the abilities have long cooldowns that I'm only gonna get to use them once per fight.

This is basically what skill in mmorpg's invovles. its not just about being able to click your mouse in the right place, but to have the tactics and strategy to understand your opponents abilities and weaknesses and take advantage accordingly. There are several places where a less experienced pvp'er could have lost.

For example not using FN and blinking away, would result in instand death
If i had poly'd the rogue the paly would have just cured him.
If I hadnt gotten the coutner spell of, I would have died.
If i didn't have bandage trained up (which a lot of players don't) i would have died.
I could go on. But hopefully this example shows you that PvP in this game can be a question of skill, if you know what you're doing.

Prior Of Taize

Arthur C. Clarke wrote shorter books :eek:

koneko

Prior Of Taize wrote:

wtf is it with people saying that if u dont like WoW then u wont like mmog's or rpg's...thats such a load of crap...

i love EvE and KOTOR and lots of other games and i still think WoW is a crap

Are you reading the same posts I am? You could also do with just calming down for a sec. No one is attacking anyone (at least, we weren't...)

Spacedog said he hasn't played MMORPGs before, in at the end of his first post says he's waiting for BF2 (an FPS, totally different genre and completely unrelated to games like WOW). A lot of his complaints are about the way MMORPGs in general work.

Those things indicate to me he probably doesn't (or wouldn't) like MMORPGs in general. No one is saying "people who don't like WOW don't like MMORPGs", I don't know where on earth you're getting that from.

(I said MMORPGs way too many times in that post )

Spacedog

Thanks Memnoch, I see what your getting at. As a big RTS fan I see the appeal of that type of gameplay. Don't think I've got the patience for all that leveling up though. Like you guys said, probably just not my cup of tea.

Spacedog

Koneko, that's probably my fault for sayong that WoW is one of the best in the genere, sorry for starting a flame thread. I like games of all types, and enjoyed playing WoW for the first week. I was curious as to what people see in this type of game that keeps them paying monthly subscriptions over months/years, long term appeal I suppose.

For me games with long term appeal:

Tetris/Tetrinet (timeless, simple, fun game)
Mario Kart (pickup and play fun with friends)
Battlefield Series (fast stratigic FPS)
Warcraft 2-3/Starcraft (most refined/balanced RTS games)
I understand the appeal of such MMORPG games after Memnochs 'Arthur C. Clarke' explaination

koneko

Ah no Spacedog you didn't start a flamewar at all, it was a normal discussion until someone decided to attack everyone over his misunderstanding.

I don't know how to explain the MMORPG appeal, it's a strange phenomenon. I suppose in a way it's more a hobby than one particular game, you're putting your time into building on it, maintaining your characters, and there is the social aspect (though for me, only, when I'm playing with friends or people I know). For some people it's a life outside their own, where they can roleplay till the cows come home.

I'm a Battlefield addict too though

Adam_K

The appeal of such games (MMORPGS) is simple: You feel like your achieving something by putting time into your online character, and you feel proud or "above" others by being higher level and/or having special items/weapons; As is the gamestyle that is supported by the design. It mainly helps those who are opressed in certain ways in their life expand their ego, make up for failures in the past, or try to fill a void.

The sad truth is, its a serious waste of effort/time, as nothing has been acheived at all. Which is why people look so badly upon MMORPGS they have played in the past; from one addiction to the next, just a different "flavour".

Games which do not require such time and do not ask such effort from people, (other MMOGs) such as World War 2 Online, PlanetSide, Warbirds, Aces High etc... are slightly more gratifying, from a long term 'feelings only' perspective, because you can leave and enter at will without being tempted by the going-ons of the virtual world. One must be careful though, as any game which you put too much time into can be dangerous to ones mentality, health and sence of reality.

My point being, WOW is bad news, be careful how you see it, and try not to get disillusioned. For such things are created to blind you into forgetting responsibilities in life which you might have otherwise. Its all choices, if you know you have an obsessive or addictive personality, stay away. If you dont have the former and play, minimize your play time: Just a general WARNING from one gamer to the next.

nesf

Well while I'm not a PvE server strictly I'm on a RP server, why? Becuase I enjoy roleplaying with other characters more than I enjoy PvP. That said I'll prob create a character on a PvP server as soon as I get bored of my RP server, but thats a long way off yet.

Economically the game is limited, but that does lend itself to the game being more manageable for the developers. One just has to look at the economic system of Eve to see a mess.

There is a level grind yes, but to be honest I enjoy optimising my character for grinding and eeking out XP. My character spends alot of time as a hunter in game and actually goes out on hunts as a form of sustaining himself. This is cool to me, and I've found some great RP in my guild. It's quite to very interesting

Sarn

Fortunately I only play about 15 hours a week. The other day I played for about 6 hours on and off, grinding away. At the end I was sick of it....until the next day. I would very rarely play longer than 1.5 - 2 hours a day (slightly longer at weekends) which keeps it relatively fresh for me. Thankfully I don't allow it to overcome my social commitments (can't miss a few pints after work on a Friday!). I would echo Adam_K's opinion that games like this can suck up people's lives as per the "addictivivivivness" thread. Taking a break for a while can make a world of difference to your enjoyment. At the moment I don't play any other PC games (haven't done so in a while), as such this is my Eastenders and Corrie.

The thing I like about WoW is that level advancement is fairly rapid for a casual gamer like myself compared to others I've played before. MMORPGs require a different kind of skill i.e. are not twitch based and do require quite a lot of invested time.

adnans

Memnoch wrote:

adnans - nothing wrong with healthy debate?

yeah. you're right, but you gotta admit my stick idea was good. i'll slowly step away from this thread in case one of you tries to poly me or something.

-adnans

koneko

yeah, but if I polyd you, some stupid bastard would probably unpoly you anyway by attacking you.

Where can obtain sticks with bees?

LoLth

hmmm, everyone seems to think all mmorpgs come fully equipped straight out of the box. Ultima took ages before permanent dwellings were introduced. City of Heroes didnt have cloaks until recently and still hasnt added vehicles (dammit, I want to play streethawk!!! or have a hero called The Hoff).

I like the idea of customisable rooms in an inn as a dwelling place. Hope Wow picks up on it. Once the auction system has proven itself stable they may add in support for player driven vendors or even Guild production outlets. Yes it is missing some features other games are proud of but as it stands, WoW competes quite nicely with the rest and if they do introduce those other features it will easily outshine any of them.

On a side note: warriors in every other MMORPG I have played are very basic. Even in NWN, "now which sword will I use this time to repeatedly batter my opponent?". The special maneauvers in WoW can (and regularly do) decide who wins or loses and usually require proper timing. Havent enough experience of other classes to comment there but the Rogue seems to be somewhat similar.

As for wasted time. I enjoy the game. I enjoy the unfolding story. I enjoy the interaction. I still go to the local for a pint with friends and go out but I dont see my time on WoW as wasted. What else would I do? Watch TV?

My definition of a boring and pointless MMORPG would be Star wars galaxies. Empty, vast, 20 shots to kill a rat or frog thingy, hugely inflated prices for EVERYTHING! after nearly a month I finally got my hands on a han solo blaster.. only to discover my newbie starting blaster was better! I did like the auction system though and the character customisation was nice. Unfortunately you had to play the rest of the game (and risk having your sould sucked out your eyeballs) to do them. Did the lightspeed add on do anything decent or is it still a yawn fest?

Dustaz

Spacedog wrote:

If your is apponent is 4 levels above you, you are guarenteed to lose a fight, if 4 below you are guarenteed to win, anywhere anywhere inbetween and this winning streak/barcode battler randomness kicks in, where the outcome is decided by chance and probability algorithms, instead of the players skill.

Sorry,. but did you actually play the game? It helps if you get out of Elwynn forest before making statements like that. Equipment, proper use of spells/skills and player skill is all important.

Example, to fire a bow/shoot a gun, you click on your target and press the shoot key. then sometimes you have a random chance of hitting or missing. why not give you a crosshair and let you shoot them yourself, if your a good shot, you'll hit. the same with the fighting, they could have made it as fun as tekken, where you have to respond to attacks and counterattack when the guard is down. but you just right click and watch the game play itself. I feel no more involved in a battle than I did using a hero in Warcraft 3.

Then play CS or Tekken? This clearly isnt your game.

BKtje

to have a server calculate the aiming of an fps or the blocks etc of a beat em up with quickly crash the server with 3k odd ppl on it. A fps requeires a lot of power just to run a 5v5/10v10 game without making it unbelievably simple old school fps/beat em up which if ppl wanted to play would load their old 486's and play.

Prior Of Taize

LoLth wrote:

I enjoy the game. I enjoy the unfolding story. I enjoy the interaction

you talking in general regards story or WoW specific?..i didnt know there was one tbh...except for the good vs. evil idea


i didnt mean to seem like i was lashing out at anyone...

but in fairness...if i dont think WoW is a good game people are very quick to tell me that its not my type of game...assuming WoW is classed under the RPG genre then it is my type of game...

I have played eve for nearly 2 years...i know its a very very different type of online game/rpg but i'll be damned if eve doesnt require 10 times more patience than WoW...so i dont think that its impatience thats making me dislike WoW...i really did like it when i started. i cancelled my subscription after 5 days based on what i thought of the game...all i can say is thank god i didnt pay for the game...

as i said above sorry if it seemed like i was shouting at everyone...i just wanted a better explanation/opinion than "its not your type of game" and then a big long list of stuff that makes it better than DAOC or someone acrymoniously named game

Memnoch

Prior Of Taize wrote:

as i said above sorry if it seemed like i was shouting at everyone...i just wanted a better explanation/opinion than "its not your type of game" and then a big long list of stuff that makes it better than DAOC or someone acrymoniously named game

its really simple... there are only xx many MMORPGs out there. MMORPG is a genre within in itself. As mmorpg's go WoW is better than anything else availible right now.

Now I will be the first to admit that WoW has its issues, esp with regards to end game content and implementation of battlegrounds and honor system.

However it is by far an away superior to every other MMORPG that I have played thus far. And i think most people who play the game feel the same way, which is why they feel that if you don't like it, maybe its not the game but the genre thats not your thing. Because in the opinions of many peopleits the best that the genre currently has to offer.

LoLth

hmmm, I actually do see what PoT is getting at (I hope).

for example: NWN is both a CRPG and a MMORPG.
as a CRPG I love it. a group doing adventures. good stuff.
As a MMORPG on a persistent state world, I'm really not that pushed. Despite being probably the closest thing to PnP RPGing around, it jsut doesnt have the feel I want in a game.

WoW, I do like because it is
a: easy to learn well enough to get around and enjoy it.
b: has potential to learn really well and show actual skill.
c: the RPG , hack n slash, monty haul, splatterfest elements are all there and you are not forced to take any of them, you pick and choose as your mood takes you.

best RPG out there? No.
Best MMORPG on a PWS? definitely on the path to it.

I dont like everquest by the way. Actually I really dont like it. And I dare anyone to say that RPG online or otherwise is not the genre for me

To answer PoT's question: I'm talking about MMORPGs in general - they usually have a decent plot/story - sometimes hidden beneath layers of crap that probably sounded good when the writers were in the pub.... but it's there tying into the quests - though hopefully not always directly. To say that I'm wasting my time playing MMORPGs you may as well say I waste my time reading books or going to the cinema. it's all entertainment at the end of the day. If you dont enjoy a game, dont play it as your past time but dont just say "thats crap" until you've given it a go. (the You in this is a generic "you").

Cina

Memnoch wrote:

its really simple... there are only xx many MMORPGs out there. MMORPG is a genre within in itself. As mmorpg's go WoW is better than anything else availible right now.

Now I will be the first to admit that WoW has its issues, esp with regards to end game content and implementation of battlegrounds and honor system.

However it is by far an away superior to every other MMORPG that I have played thus far. And i think most people who play the game feel the same way, which is why they feel that if you don't like it, maybe its not the game but the genre thats not your thing. Because in the opinions of many peopleits the best that the genre currently has to offer.

That's the point I was trying to put across, apologies if I overreacted slighty. I honestly don't know any MMORPG fan myself who isn't highly enjoying WoW.
True, It's not perfect, but what MMORPG was EVER perfect on first release? Infact WoW is easily the most perfect first release MMORPG I've ever played myself, that's one of the reasons I like it so much.
I guess I've just gotten so addicted already that I can't bear for people to not like the game !

CivilServant

You haven't even been in an instance yet. Go try that and see if it changes your mind. First one being The Deadmines for the alliance. It's a pretty good starter as instances go and you'll have to group at your level to have any success. You just might like it.

koneko

Ah yeah, with a good group there's nothing like an instance.

For anyone on Horde side, we ended up doing Ragefire Chasm with me (mage), a Warlock, Warrior and a Shaman I believe. It was so good. Afterwards everyone was just saying "This is the best time I've had playing the game, ever". People started adding eachother to buddylists, I didn't know anyone of them beforehand except the warlock (my bf), we'd just been recruiting on the LFG channel.

Woden

i've only played one othe mmorpg before and that was FF XI. being a big final fantasy fan i had it imported the xmas before last and set up an account in america. i couldn't get into it at all. picked it up and put it down a number of times reactivating and cancelling my content i.d's etc.

i don't know how it compares to other mmorpg's such as everquest and such but the game is so much of a slog. the down time between fights after the first few levels is quite big. leveling is so much of a grind it got to the point i was saying why am i doing this. it even became difficult to find a party last time i was playing as i thought the game was dying off a bit.

what else, all items seemed very expensive, money generation was difficult, the walks between areas and cities are huge and the list goes on.

so i didn't know whether to pick up wow but i grabbed it the other day and was pleasantly suprised. its very easy to pick up. the user interface is extremely intuitive. the auto regeneration of hp and mana is good, there is an incentive to do the quests more so then in FF XI, there is towns and villages all over the shop and i'm rather enjoying the role of druid atm which from what i can see seems to be like a red mage and looking forward to the shape shifting aspect of it coming up.

anyway off i go to terenas

data

ViperVenoM

welll!

i got it day of release ere and i havent stopped playing :eek:

playing like 6-15hrs a day albeit recently ive been focusing on just getting money as i keep spending it at the auction house..thats why im only lvl 29 but this game is NOT boring!

i love rpgs and ive always wanted to try a mmorpg but been put off by the price, i took the plunge with this 1 with all the hype and im certainly NOT dissappointed!!!!

it could be 1 of my fav games ever, i love going round lvling up....getting new things to play with, instances with groups are great fun!

AND we have the battlegrounds to look forward to :eek:

as for the lag and stuff, i think the game is damn efficent , i can wander round in a raid like 30+ of us...chasing the horde out of darkshire (ahh that was a fun night ) with no real slow down or lag or anything!

and to top it all off just having a look at the map ive only been around...1/6th of the entire thing..omg this games huge..its brillant!..and im off back in again i want to get saving for a mount

DeVore

The one thing I take issue with is the idea that there isnt skill in the combat.

I'm a mage. Other mages are now almost certainly nodding their heads in agreement with what I'm about to say because its the code by which we get to live.

If you are an unskillful mage from day 1 you will suffer. Things will beat on you. Bite you etc. Lets just say, stuff will go bad....

Now its bad when you are alone but its a BILLION times worse when you are grouped. Mages in a group are a powerful asset if played strategically and tactically correctly. They do the most damage in the game, period. On the other hand, a mage who doesnt know what he's doing or is a poor player is going to land the entire group int he graveyard again and again and again.

Mages have to know when to nuke, when to poly, when to root and what to do these things to. No point in sheeping a mob in combat!
Casting AoE spells into the mix willy nilly will AT BEST get you dead when you fail to understand the hate system. At worst it will bring 6 more enemies into the fight and you and your entire team dies.

I've played a mage for a long time and I have the skittish, neurotic mererat-like nerves to show for it. I've seen mages running screaming again and again from mobs that I'm chain-soloing at the same level because they didnt understand how to play the class and kept walking up to them and pulling them WITH THEIR STAFF....

There is no twitch response as such to the combat, its true. In that, its not like Quake or CS. But the tactical side of it is very very deep and as you level that becomes apparent more and more so.

DeV.

Prior Of Taize

DeVore wrote:

If you are an unskillful mage from day 1 you will suffer. Things will beat on you. Bite you etc. Lets just say, stuff will go bad....


DeV.

So what your saying is if your **** at the game then you will suffer... :rolleyes:

So what your saying is if your **** at the game then you will suffer...

Not quite. In every mmporg there are classes that take more getting used to or more work to have working in the best format. Across the board, mages tend to be the biggest pain. (In DAOC it was Void Spec or Wizzies, at least for me). As with WOW and most other games you have to create a strategy for each creature while playing a caster. i.e. cast, cast, stun, mez, cast, cast etc. or get agro on tank, and AOE spam.

but if you find that you don't want to have that much involvement, you can pick a warrior type. I tend to start off with a warrior until i know a world well. Then I always pick a caster.

One other thing to note, if you're on a modem, its best to avoid casters. If you get a lag spike you tend to die in combat. Warrior type characters can get away with alot more mistakes.