[article] Adventures of a Sinn Fein "Campiagn Team"

Victor

Regarding the van, seeing as the word used in "lent", not "stolen", someone wilingly let it be used.

cdebru wrote:

I'm not missing any points

obviously the sinn fein posters have absolutely nothing to do with what ever they intended using the stun gun etc for

the vehicles they were using were also being used by people perhaps the same people to put up sinn fein posters

if they found a fourstar pizza box and the guy delivered pizza s would that mean that pizza company had something to do with the other stuff NO

I think the point is that the guys were systematicly delivering chinese takeaways while dressed in their pizza uniforms, being paid by the pizza company and driving a pizza company van.

cdebru wrote:

what pisses me off is this feint shock that IRA members could also be supporters of sinn fein

I'm not sure of your exact angle here (as to who whould be "feint shocked"), but I think it's time for Sinn Féin to realise

(a) The is systematic overlap in the membership, ideals and activities of SF and the IRA.

(b) That everyone else knows this.

(c) That everyone else is "kinda" OK with this once the IRA part is small and diminishing. After all, couldn't we just treat SF as "just another" political party and deal with the IRA only when it come to conflict resolution (and to exclude SF from the conflict resolution).

cdebru

Victor wrote:

Regarding the van, seeing as the word used in "lent", not "stolen", someone wilingly let it be used.

i never suggested otherwise but that does not mean that they knew what exactly the van was going to be used for

Victor wrote:

I think the point is that the guys were systematicly delivering chinese takeaways while dressed in their pizza uniforms, being paid by the pizza company and driving a pizza company van.

I think what you saying is that they were doing IRA work while they were supposed to be doing sinn fein work
but there is no evidence to suggest that they were supposed to be working for sinn fein while they were doing whatever it is they were doing

Victor wrote:

I'm not sure of your exact angle here (as to who whould be "feint shocked"), but I think it's time for Sinn Féin to realise

(a) The is systematic overlap in the membership, ideals and activities of SF and the IRA.

(b) That everyone else knows this.

(c) That everyone else is "kinda" OK with this once the IRA part is small and diminishing. After all, couldn't we just treat SF as "just another" political party and deal with the IRA only when it come to conflict resolution (and to exclude SF from the conflict resolution).

their is undoubtly overlap in membership and Ideals but neither of those things suprise me or anyone else
there is no overlap in the activities of sinn fein and the IRA
sinn fein is a political party they do all the same **** that every other political party does any one can join sinn fein and do just political stuff

the thing is that they have members who also happen to be members of the IRA I don't think that there is anything shocking in that presumably most people who join the IRA are politically motivated and have an interest in politics they may also be interested in joining a political party

what party are they going to join the PDs the DUP the SDLP FG FF it is hardly surprising that they join sinn fein

what they do for sinn fein is one thing what they do for other organisations they belong to is nothing to do with sinn fein

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

..... anyone can make up a list of leading republicans and pass it off as the IRA army council as has already been discussed none of these people can sue so its pretty much open season

The IRA is an illegal organisation, so its simply a fact that we have to make such use of available material as we can. I take it the ultimate source of Moloney's material is a mixture of Security force gossip, Republican gossip (the first time I heard the name Slab Murphy was from a fringe Republican activist) and journalist gossip.I can go so far as agreeing that the evidence is short of a legal case that would convict, as I have already said. But its good enough to inform our discussion.

cdebru wrote:

..... What party are they going to join the PDs the DUP the SDLP FG FF it is hardly surprising that they join sinn fein. What they do for sinn fein is one thing what they do for other organisations they belong to is nothing to do with sinn fein

Two thoughts. Firstly, the fact that IRA activists feel comfortable in joining SF is enough for a lot of us to feel uncomfortable with SF. Remember, most of us really don't view IRA activism as a noble activity. I view IRA activism as forgiveable in the context of the Troubles, but at best misguided and at worst pure nasty.

Secondly, can I suggest that SF do indeed have to be concerned if a portion of their members are IRA activists engaged in crime. This is not a one way street. I don't want to go off down that 'where do SF get their money' line again, but recall that most of us don't accept that SF are just passive recipients of unsought support from IRA. That is, again, not a true reflection of the situation.

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

The IRA is an illegal organisation, so its simply a fact that we have to make such use of available material as we can. I take it the ultimate source of Moloney's material is a mixture of Security force gossip, Republican gossip (the first time I heard the name Slab Murphy was from a fringe Republican activist) and journalist gossip.I can go so far as agreeing that the evidence is short of a legal case that would convict, as I have already said. But its good enough to inform our discussion.

it is good enough to inform a discussion but people are going on like this is the gospel
I don't know who is on the army council of the IRA maybe it is right.
I just don't think people should be treating this as fact

ishmael whale wrote:

Two thoughts. Firstly, the fact that IRA activists feel comfortable in joining SF is enough for a lot of us to feel uncomfortable with SF. Remember, most of us really don't view IRA activism as a noble activity. I view IRA activism as forgiveable in the context of the Troubles, but at best misguided and at worst pure nasty.

but sinn fein is a republican party and they do view what the IRA engaged in as noble

ishmael whale wrote:

Secondly, can I suggest that SF do indeed have to be concerned if a portion of their members are IRA activists engaged in crime. This is not a one way street. I don't want to go off down that 'where do SF get their money' line again, but recall that most of us don't accept that SF are just passive recipients of unsought support from IRA. That is, again, not a true reflection of the situation.

see what republicans see is this is an attempt to classify everything that the IRA engaged in as a crime
the shinners are caught between a rock and a hard place if they accept that the IRA have committed crimes then does that mean that they are criminals and the implications that carries re the hunger strikes etc

personally i can accept that some of the actions that the IRA engaged in were crimes for example the murder of jean mcconville
I don't think that this means that every action of the IRA was criminal no more than say the bombing of dresden was a crime but this does not mean that the british armys campaign against the nazis was criminal NO

individual actions can be criminal without criminalising the whole struggle I think that sinn fein have to get their heads around that idea and stop trying to defend the indefensible

Victor

Oh, sceptre, maybe they were into some S&M / domination type stuff where they dress up in balaclavas and have the cops beat them? Drawn into this fantasy world, they didn't realise things were getting out of hand when the real cops showed up?

I wonder if there were charges for having offensive / noxious weapons. Imitating a garda. Possession of items likely to be used in a crime. Intent to litter (it not being during an election). Carrying passengers in the rear of a commerical vehicle.

cdebru wrote:

I think what you saying is that they were doing IRA work while they were supposed to be doing sinn fein work but there is no evidence to suggest that they were supposed to be working for sinn fein while they were doing whatever it is they were doing

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, OK, it might be a goose.

Looks like duck, walks like a duck, feels like a duck, sounds like a duck, taste like a duck, smells like a duck. In all probability it is a duck.

sceptre

Victor wrote:

Oh, sceptre, maybe they were into some S&M / domination type stuff where they dress up in balaclavas and have the cops beat them? Drawn into this fantasy world, they didn't realise things were getting out of hand when the real cops showed up?

Ah, another R v Brown (or perhaps R v Slingsby) in the offing. The Spanner Trust might take them on as clients.

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

It is good enough to inform a discussion but people are going on like this is the gospel

I think you can take it as a reflection of the fact that many non-SF supporters feel they are being taken for fools by an unrealistic pretence that SF has no substantive link to IRA. When I say the level of information is good enough for this discussion, I mean I feel it is substantially true but simply not proveable in a criminal case.

cdebru wrote:

But sinn fein is a republican party and they do view what the IRA engaged in as noble

My point remains. The fact that IRA members find SF a comfortable home and SF regard the IRA as admirable is something that causes the rest of us concern. That's why we feel SF has a ways to go before it can be regarded as just another party.

cdebru wrote:

See what republicans see is this is an attempt to classify everything that the IRA engaged in as a crime

Then that's a misconception. Now clearly many of us do regard the IRA campaign over the last thirty years as criminal in large part, and that's simply our perspective. Equally, many of us are willing to wipe the slate clean regarding criminal acts before the GFA. But what causes the current problem is not the historical campaign. Its the fact that the IRA has continues to carry out criminal acts up to the present day. And certainly any post GFA criminal act is simply that, the political justification is gone. From our perspective SF seem to want to hold on to some concept that IRA smuggling/money laundering/robbery should not be regarded as a crime. That's just not on.

cdebru wrote:

individual actions can be criminal without criminalising the whole struggle I think that sinn fein have to get their heads around that idea and stop trying to defend the indefensible

Totally, and equally its a simple fact that there is no political conflict that justifies or rationalises IRA members horsing around in Garda uniforms in Bray. The IRA is an obstacle to futher progress.

cdebru

Victor wrote:

Oh, sceptre, maybe they were into some S&M / domination type stuff where they dress up in balaclavas and have the cops beat them? Drawn into this fantasy world, they didn't realise things were getting out of hand when the real cops showed up?

I wonder if there were charges for having offensive / noxious weapons. Imitating a garda. Possession of items likely to be used in a crime. Intent to litter (it not being during an election). Carrying passengers in the rear of a commerical vehicle.

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, OK, it might be a goose.

Looks like duck, walks like a duck, feels like a duck, sounds like a duck, taste like a duck, smells like a duck. In all probability it is a duck.

I presume that what your trying to say is when do they stop being Sinn Fein election workers/members and start being IRA members
I would imagine the answer from Sinn Fein would be when they do anything outside of the law or on behalf of the IRA

But the difficulty for Sinn Fein in all of this is that while the individuals may know when they are acting for SInn fein and when they are acting on behalf of the IRA to the general public to two things just blend into one

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

I think you can take it as a reflection of the fact that many non-SF supporters feel they are being taken for fools by an unrealistic pretence that SF has no substantive link to IRA. When I say the level of information is good enough for this discussion, I mean I feel it is substantially true but simply not proveable in a criminal case.

I think it depends on what you mean substantive yes there is obviously a crossover of membership but I don't believe there is a link in regards that policy has to be cleared by the IRA or that the leader or anyone in the party has to be a member of the IRA. All that sinn fein can realistically admit to is a shared goal and crossover membership

ishmael whale wrote:

My point remains. The fact that IRA members find SF a comfortable home and SF regard the IRA as admirable is something that causes the rest of us concern. That's why we feel SF has a ways to go before it can be regarded as just another party.

So you would like Sinn Fein to do what condemn the IRA brand them as a criminal conspiracy

ishmael whale wrote:

Then that's a misconception. Now clearly many of us do regard the IRA campaign over the last thirty years as criminal in large part, and that's simply our perspective. Equally, many of us are willing to wipe the slate clean regarding criminal acts before the GFA. But what causes the current problem is not the historical campaign. Its the fact that the IRA has continues to carry out criminal acts up to the present day. And certainly any post GFA criminal act is simply that, the political justification is gone. From our perspective SF seem to want to hold on to some concept that IRA smuggling/money laundering/robbery should not be regarded as a crime. That's just not on.

well my perspective is that if hte IRA are prepared to decommission and stand down why would they need the money from robberies smuggling etc
either it is one a couple of reasons

1 they dont intend to stand down
2 they plan on funding sinn fein witht he money
3 they want the money for themselves

i don't know which is worse


I think adams has tied himself up in knots with the statement that a republican can not be a criminal it was a stupid statement I know where he was coming from but the way it sounds is just laughable given the recent murder of robert mccartney

ishmael whale wrote:

Totally, and equally its a simple fact that there is no political conflict that justifies or rationalises IRA members horsing around in Garda uniforms in Bray. The IRA is an obstacle to futher progress.

I agree that the IRA at this stage is an obstacle I think most republicans have probably realised that I cant see any justification for what they were doing in bray what i would like to know is wtf were they doing

Moriarty

cdebru wrote:

I think what you saying is that they were doing IRA work while they were supposed to be doing sinn fein work but there is no evidence to suggest that they were supposed to be working for sinn fein while they were doing whatever it is they were doing

Uhm. The owner of the van leant it to Sinn Fein for electioneering purposes. This van was mysteriously the same van that an IRA unit turns up in.

Giminey-crickets Batman, could that mean that there are links between the two organisations?!

The sad thing about this is, Sinn Fein seem to actually work hard on the ground for their constituents. Now, what policies they have are completely useless and dangerous to our economy, diplomatic standing, yadda yadda imo, but that doesn't seem to matter to the people who elect them, and that's fair enough - it's what democracy is all about.

If they actually decided to cut out their evening job of directing and participating in organised crime, they could actually make a place for themselves in Irish politics where they would be subjected to no more "bullying" than the socialist party or the greens are.

cdebru

Moriarty wrote:

Uhm. The owner of the van leant it to Sinn Fein for electioneering purposes. This van was mysteriously the same van that an IRA unit turns up in..

Giminey-crickets Batman, could that mean that there are links between the two organisations?!


giminey crickets did you bother reading the rest of this thread i have never said there are no links
it is what people mean by links
ie links as in cross membership and shared goals
or links as in the IRA direct and control sinn fein or vice versa

Moriarty wrote:

The sad thing about this is, Sinn Fein seem to actually work hard on the ground for their constituents. Now, what policies they have are completely useless and dangerous to our economy, diplomatic standing, yadda yadda imo, but that doesn't seem to matter to the people who elect them, and that's fair enough - it's what democracy is all about.

If they actually decided to cut out their evening job of directing and participating in organised crime, they could actually make a place for themselves in Irish politics where they would be subjected to no more "bullying" than the socialist party or the greens are.

the thing is that the vast majority mc dowells estimate is 96% of sinn fein members have no involvement with the IRA
they have already made a place wether they can hold onto that place with the robert mccartney murder and probably what is worse for the republican movement the attempt to intimidate witnesses and cover up for the thugs who carried out this brutal murder
if the republican movement had distanced themselves immediately from these people it would have been bad enough but what they did besmirches the whole republican ideal they seem to have let personal loyalty intefere

I think people in the 26 counties don't fully realise that the northern bank robbery or the lads in the van are not what will really damage the republican movement it is the murder of robert mccartney and the intimidation of witnesses later if people believe that this is what the republican movement really represents then they wont be long in turning their backs on them.

the arrogance amonst the membership of the IRA that this has displayed to the very people they claim to want to liberate and protect is sickening

Moriarty

cdebru wrote:

I think people in the 26 counties don't fully realise that the northern bank robbery or the lads in the van are not what will really damage the republican movement it is the murder of robert mccartney and the intimidation of witnesses later if people believe that this is what the republican movement really represents then they wont be long in turning their backs on them.

the arrogance amonst the membership of the IRA that this has displayed to the very people they claim to want to liberate and protect is sickening

I think it's more along the lines of "you mean you guys up north didn't actually think these guys were a pack of murdering scumbags all along!?", rather than not realising there's a problem to begin with. Most people down here have for years had the very same attitude to Sinn Fein and the IRA that may only now be entering the northern consciousness - that of distrust, disdain and cold malice.

FTA69

The conviction of the men themselves was an utter joke, in what other EU country apart from maybe Spain would people be sentenced to 4 years in prison for possesion of relatively innocuous contraband? It is utterly ridiculous, this is the same court who also sentenced Don O'Leary for membership on the basis of possesion of a poster!

As for the ludicrous suggestion that Aengus Ó Snódaigh is involved with this incident because they happened to have a few posters of his, I have a Worker's Party leaflet in my house, is poor Ted Tynan from Cork to blame if I commit a crime?

Moriarty

.. you do realise that anyone who isn't already tied up with SF and/or the IRA is smirking quietly at the continuing "What, us?" act, yeah?

Instead of putting your hands up and saying there's a problem you're locked into a constant mode of denial.. but feel free to continue, as the moderate support that you were begining to pick up down here is melting away so fast directly because of this attitude it's hilarious.

Slutmonkey57b

cdebru wrote:

but sinn fein is a republican party and they do view what the IRA engaged in as noble

Uuuurhgh.

SO £"$£"$£" what??
The Irish people, who SF and the IRA claim to be "fighting" for,
DO NOT REGARD WHAT THE IRA DO AS NOBLE. THEY REGARD IT AS A CRIME. WE HAD A VOTE ON IT, REMEMBER?

see what republicans see is this is an attempt to classify everything that the IRA engaged in as a crime

That's because it is! They're an illegal organisation!

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Uuuurhgh.

SO £"$£"$£" what??
The Irish people, who SF and the IRA claim to be "fighting" for,
DO NOT REGARD WHAT THE IRA DO AS NOBLE. THEY REGARD IT AS A CRIME. WE HAD A VOTE ON IT, REMEMBER?!

we were not discussing the Irish people in general we were discussing republicans if have nothing constructive to add why bother jumping in with this trolling ****

and no I dont remember that particular referendum when was it we

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

That's because it is! They're an illegal organisation!

wow so inciteful is with people like you around its hard to believe the peace process ever got off the ground at all

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

we were not discussing the Irish people in general we were discussing republicans

heh
Thats what it boils down to-ignore the Irish people,they dont matter, its what we want that matters.
I'm afraid that wont wash as all the *cough* Irish people over 18 have a vote not just a few per cent of them...Remember an Ireland of equals?

FTA69

Moriarty wrote:

as the moderate support that you were begining to pick up down here is melting away so fast directly because of this attitude it's hilarious.

Yeah that tidal wave of a whopping 1% drop really sounded the death knell for Sinn Féin in the 26 Counties...

Moriarty

We'll see

toiletduck

FTA69 wrote:

Yeah that tidal wave of a whopping 1% drop really sounded the death knell for Sinn Féin in the 26 Counties...

Isnt it a drop of 10% from their original support? they had a 10% support which dropped to 9%....

FTA69

I mean a 1% drop in percentage points. Anyway, a figure like that is meaningless considering it is eclipsed by a 3% error margin. For all anyone knows Sinn Féin's support has increased. Moriarty, we will indeed see!

billy the squid

I think the 20 percent drop in the satisfaction rating for gerry adams is more telling to be honest.

Victor

Moriarty wrote:

Uhm. The owner of the van leant it to Sinn Fein for electioneering purposes. This van was mysteriously the same van that an IRA unit turns up in.

Oddly enough, there was no election at the time.

Slutmonkey57b

Shh. The apologists are carefully trying to avoid giving us an explanation for that.

cdebru

Victor wrote:

Oddly enough, there was no election at the time.

Sinn Fein unlike most other parties does not just canvas and campaign during the 3 weeks preceding an election

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

The conviction of the men themselves was an utter joke,

They were senstenced by the courts of this country.

As a democrat - I support the intitutions of this country.


But FTA69,(just to clarify) do you or do do not support the courts of this country?

A Dub in Glasgo

Well Cork you must have supported Nicky Kelly getting beaten up, framed and convicted of the Sallins Train Robbery then.

Cork

“When will Ó Snodaigh ask his close associate, the convicted provo, Niall Binead why he (Binead) was keeping files on the movements of a number of TDs including three former justice ministers?” Mr O’Dea asked.

“When will Ó Snodaigh publicly denounce his friend Binead and tell us how Binead’s thumbprint was found by gardaí on a roll of black tape in Bray in 2002 in a car with false number plates which also contained a canister of CS gas, two pick-axe handles, a sledgehammer, a black balaclava, a blue flashing beacon and a yellow fluorescent jacket with the word ‘garda’ on it?”

Has Snodaigh ansered these questions?

Well Cork you must have supported Nicky Kelly getting beaten up, framed and convicted of the Sallins Train Robbery then.

I don't support people being beaten up - I'll leave that to the provisional movement.

Capt'n Midnight

FTA69 wrote:

The conviction of the men themselves was an utter joke, in what other EU country apart from maybe Spain would people be sentenced to 4 years in prison for possesion of relatively innocuous contraband?

The court heard gardaí recovered a large quantity of Sinn Féin posters, including election posters, from a car in which they also found a stun gun and CS gas canister after the men's arrest.

Gardaí also found pick-axe handles, balaclavas and a fake garda jacket from a van and four of the men were found seated on the floor of the van, two of them dressed in fake garda uniforms.

SF people going around dressed as guards and carrying weapons and that's innocuous ?

Oh the injustice of it..

You claim that in any other country that people belonging to a prescribed terrorist organisation, having illegal weapons and imporsonanting members of the police would get less than 4 years..

It's up to 5 years alone for being in the IRA and the sentences could have run consequtively - also "volunteers" are supposed to know the risks.

FTA69

Just because courts may be the isntitutions of a soveriegn state does not mean they can do no wrong Cork. This the same Special "Criminal" Court which has sentenced people to 4 years in jail for possesion of a poster! Where elese would this occur? Where else is the word of a policeman coupled with the possesion of perfectly legal items justification enough to imprison people for such savage periods in jail? The SCC doesn't deserve the right to be called a court of even.