[article] Adventures of a Sinn Fein "Campiagn Team"

mycroft

FTA69 wrote:

Just because courts may be the isntitutions of a soveriegn state does not mean they can do no wrong Cork. This the same Special "Criminal" Court which has sentenced people to 4 years in jail for possesion of a poster! Where elese would this occur? Where else is the word of a policeman coupled with the possesion of perfectly legal items justification enough to imprison people for such savage periods in jail? The SCC doesn't deserve the right to be called a court of even.

You're not even trying now child.

You know damn well the pick axe handles, pepper spray, fake garda uniforms, and cs gas were slightly more relevent.

And finally IRA apologists can not condemn the justice of the SCC, when they themselves have been having their own kangroo courts where they are judge jury and executioner to dozens of people over the years.

Condeming the justice of this state while carrying about ex judicary killings and beatings is beyond laughable. There is no IRA court of appeal

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

The SCC doesn't deserve the right to be called a court of even.

It was brought in and maintained by various elected democratic governments for a reason... namely jury tampering.
This is a democracy, one must acquiesse to what the people vote for...

I suppose the CAB should be abolished too, God dAmmit, can we not have a decent bit of hot money around these days without people wanting to take it for the state... :rolleyes:

Honestly FTA69 you are entitled to your views but they're so outlandish to most people...expecting them to be taken seriously is a bit much.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

This the same Special "Criminal" Court which has sentenced people to 4 years in jail for possesion of a poster!

Sure, it's only a bit of paper, your Honour. And what's a gun only a hunk o' metal? What's all the fuss about?

FTA69 wrote:

Where elese would this occur? Where else is the word of a policeman coupled with the possesion of perfectly legal items justification enough to imprison people for such savage periods in jail?

Here's a crazy idea: why don't you speculate as to the innocuous purpose you think those pleasant chappies were up to with their pickaxe handles, Garda uniforms, balaclavas, stun gun and CS gas. I mean, it's obvious you don't believe they were doing anything wrong, so what exactly do you think they had planned?

Victor

FTA69 wrote:

Where else is the word of a policeman coupled with the possesion of perfectly legal items justification enough to imprison people for such savage periods in jail?

But these cases don't rely "word of a policeman" - the judges specificly examined the basis on which the senior policeman came to his conclusion, i.e. the judges saw the raw evidence.

perfectly legal items

Quick, tell the Triad lads that carrying carving knives is cool with the cops! :rolleyes:

Sand

Here's a crazy idea: why don't you speculate as to the innocuous purpose you think those pleasant chappies were up to with their pickaxe handles, Garda uniforms, balaclavas, stun gun and CS gas. I mean, it's obvious you don't believe they were doing anything wrong, so what exactly do you think they had planned?

That would be an interesting challenge. Try and come up with a perfectly legal use for all those items.

My theory is they were stripograms doing the old naughty policeman act, wearing the balaclavas because it was a cold night, they were using the pick axe handles to dance around like canes they saw Fred Astaire using on the TV, and the CS gas and stun guns were for any females who became frenzied with lust by their gyrating hips? FTA will agree that this is a perfectly plausible explanation for what the Gardai found.

Only a free state 26 county west brit showtrial could believe they could be an IRA unit on their way to mutilate some poor bastard.

FTA69

Victor wrote:

Quick, tell the Triad lads that carrying carving knives is cool with the cops! :rolleyes:

Carrying a knife over a certain blade length is indeed illegal, but it doesn't warrant four years in jail.

You're not even trying now child.

People here have an unhealthy preoccupation with my age, are you unable to actually focus on the issue at hand without getting personal over it?

Here's a crazy idea: why don't you speculate as to the innocuous purpose you think those pleasant chappies were up to with their pickaxe handles, Garda uniforms, balaclavas, stun gun and CS gas. I mean, it's obvious you don't believe they were doing anything wrong, so what exactly do you think they had planned?

I haven't the slightest clue what they were up to, what is for sure though, is that the possesion of a fake Garda jacket and a stun gun (the rest are legal items most would have in a garden shed) is not normally an offense deserving of a four year jail term. IRA membership is though, but the only "evidence" in that regard is a policemans's opinion, it isn't as if the men were caught stalking a cash van with assault rifles is it?

Slutmonkey57b

What's wrong with IRA membership being worth more than 4 years in the slammer? Don't like it? Don't join!

What's wrong with accepting a policeman's opinion based on verifiable evidence - or is it only the opinion of SF members that counts? Sorry, non sequiter there.

Oh, and if you've no idea what they were actually up to, then it's deeply stupid to suggest that the whole thing is blown out of proportion.

FTA69

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

What's wrong with accepting a policeman's opinion based on verifiable evidence - or is it only the opinion of SF members that counts? Sorry, non sequiter there.

The fact that there was no "verifiable evidence", all that they had were legal items and contraband which would hardly warrant a fine. But just because a cop throws in his two cents it automatically equates with 4 years in jail. No other country in the EU would have such a court and it undermines any claims of "law" and "justice" the state might have in this regard.

BuffyBot

People here have an unhealthy preoccupation with my age

Perhaps it's because you weren't even born when much of the "heroic" IRA activities took place, or when all of the "brutality" you protest against was being inflicted by the terrible Brits ..it kind of puts you on some shaky ground. Indeed, by my reckoning, you seem to have be old enough to have just caught the tail end of it all..

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

The fact that there was no "verifiable evidence", all that they had were legal items and contraband which would hardly warrant a fine.

Contraband?, have you ever experienced exposure to CS gas? I have, as part of my training in Oglaigh na hEireann, I would'nt recommend it.
If criminal organisation in their various guises did'nt exist, there would be no need for the Special Criminal Court.

jbkenn

BCB

cdebru wrote:

ok imagine your an IRA member

which political party do you think you would be likely to support

now imagine your an IRA member with some time on your hands at election time which parties posters are you likely to be putting up



now does any of this mean that sinn fein or o'snodaigh knew that these men were in the IRA or what they were up to when they were arrested by the Gardai

NO

Slutmonkey57b

FTA69 wrote:

People here have an unhealthy preoccupation with my age, are you unable to actually focus on the issue at hand without getting personal over it?

People have a problem with your age because it's slightly sickening to watch someone expressing support for the "good fight" waged by "brave volunteers" and denying blindly that these volunteers are actually criminal scum, while at the same time being too young to have actually experienced anything that happened. This fact makes your opinion, to a very large extent, meaningless.

Most people remember what the IRA is like, as opposed to basing their decisions and opinions on the cheery fairy stories told to them at the fireplace in "free west waterford" by some teary-eyed old republican scumbag. And they certainly don't want to have to go back to the "good old days" of the cause because people who are only knee-high to a grasshopper has decided that all that time and effort that the previous generation put into disbanding the IRA was not on really. People would hope that a new generation brought up without the IRA's paranoid spin machine might actually appreciate the chance they'd been given to live in peace, rather than squander it.

It's like the WWII generation watching the rise of neo-nazis if that makes it any clearer for you. Not that it will, but I'll try anyway.

FTA69

have you ever experienced exposure to CS gas? I have, as part of my training in Oglaigh na hEireann

Was this during your activism during the Battle of the Bogside or what? I never knew the IRA sprayed CS gas on each other? And yes, possesion of CS gas is contraband, there are far worse things one could have in their possesion and CS gas does not warrant 4 years in jail.

being too young to have actually experienced anything that happened.

And what have you ever experienced slutmonkey? I can nearly hear you trapsing down memory lane, because you read the paper and watched the news during the 70s and 80s does not make you any more experienced on the subject than me to be honest

Most people remember what the IRA is like

And what experience have you with the IRA a chara?

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

The fact that there was no "verifiable evidence", all that they had were legal items and contraband which would hardly warrant a fine. But just because a cop throws in his two cents it automatically equates with 4 years in jail. No other country in the EU would have such a court and it undermines any claims of "law" and "justice" the state might have in this regard.

Better than the way the IRA dispense justice with their baseball bats.

FTA69, Do you support the Gardai?

You seem to having problems with our justice system.

poneill

FTA69 wrote:

it isn't as if the men were caught stalking a cash van with assault rifles is it?

Thats not a very stirring defence , try not to go there Comrade

monument

Cork wrote:

Better than the way the IRA dispense justice with their baseball bats.

The state convicting people with “no verifiable evidence" isn’t a world away from such.

Cork wrote:

FTA69, Do you support the Gardai?

You seem to having problems with our justice system.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has a problem with our Special Kangaroo Court. They have also called for Garda reform, so I guess they have a problem with our police too.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Was this during your activism during the Battle of the Bogside or what? I never knew the IRA sprayed CS gas on each other? And yes, possesion of CS gas is contraband, there are far worse things one could have in their possesion and CS gas does not warrant 4 years in jail.

Who said anything about the IRA? I am talking about Oglaigh na hEireann, the Defence Forces. I have no idea how the IRA get their jollies. I will say again, if you experienced CS gas, you would'nt hold the half baked "wannabee freedom fighter" notions you do.

jbkenn

oscarBravo

monument wrote:

The state convicting people with “no verifiable evidence" isn’t a world away from such.

I'd be inclined to disagree, but I'll wait for some specific examples.

monument wrote:

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has a problem with our Special Kangaroo Court.

The SCC is an unfortunate necessity in an environment where the perpetrators of serious crimes were walking free because of their intimidation of juries.

monument wrote:

They have also called for Garda reform, so I guess they have a problem with our police too.

You're overstating the case somewhat. If you read their position paper on Garda reform, you'll find it mostly offers constructive suggestions rather than expressing a "problem with our police".

Sand

Was this during your activism during the Battle of the Bogside or what? I never knew the IRA sprayed CS gas on each other?

Id imagine he's referring to service in the actual Army of the actual Irish Republic, rather than a gang of thugs who mutilate children younger than yourself FTA. Mind you, seeing as you live in a fictional land I imagine its news to you that the Irish Republic exists, let alone that it has its own legitimate army answerable to the Dail and Government elected by the citizens of the Irish Republic.

FTA69, Do you support the Gardai

Actually I think FTA is on the record as saying that the Gardai in Free West Waterford - Im not sure if theyre related to the Gardai from the Irish Republic (?) - are waging an oppressive campaign against good, honest, ordinary SF party workers including dishing out savage beatings. Im not certain, but FTA may even have claimed to have been the victim of one of these beatings himself. However, when challenged on this, he clammed up and has been unable to provide any evidence, not even SF condemnations of Garda attacks on its parties members. Of course, even SF may not be aware that Free West Waterford exists, and as such can be forgiven for this oversight.

And what experience have you with the IRA a chara?

I doubt many have had *personal* experience of IRA ( and other terrorist groups) atrocities, much as we wouldnt have *personal* experience of say the activities of Serbian paramilitaries in Kosovo and Bosnia. But many had to stomach for years the sight of Gerry Adams appearing on TV refusing to condemn the latest in a long line of IRA murders of civillians. Or heard the victims of those atrocities tell their stories. Those victims have an impact on you that stays with you - even when their voices are drowned out by a political process that is designed to exscuse the killers, focus on their needs, and legitimise the murder of 3000 people.

So I dont blame you for not being impressed by tales of IRA atrocities because youre coming in on the tail end of that proccess which was designed to swaddle the IRA and other terrorists in cotton wool and tell them what great lads the were. The victims dont get that platform - what political party represents the dead, the dissapeared and the mutilated? Who threatens theyll go back to war unless the demands of the victims are met? Who funds the propaganda to ensure that no one ever forgets any injustice done to a victim of the IRA? How must Anne McCabe feel when she learns that one of the provos arrested smuggling money in Dublin had checked himself into a convention as "Jerry McCabe, Garda Catering Officer", a deliberate slur on the memory of another victim of the provos legacy of mindless violence and criminality in Ireland. What a great joke he must have shared with the other two in the jeep before being arrested. Oh they must have laughed. Do you think the provos would be laughing if a unionist was found to have signed himself into a convention as "Bobby Sands, Slimming Coach"? These are the people you support, the people youre aligning yourself with. Does it not bother you that there is a Serbian FTA in "Free Serbian Bosnia" whose probably utterly convinced that the Serb paramilitaries were honourable patriots who might have made a few mistakes, but were in a desperate situation trying to save the Serbs from the Bosnian death squads?

To draw a parallel, the great fear of the survivors of the holocaust is that their suffering will be airbrushed out of history or reduced to dry facts as the survivors age and die and the impact of personal accounts are lost on later generations. Sadly in Ireland, where our primary education and culture is a real prep school for provo rhetoric, this proccess of forgetting the victims of terrorist atrocities is already under way.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has a problem with our Special Kangaroo Court. They have also called for Garda reform, so I guess they have a problem with our police too.

If they or SF/IRA can come up with a better way to see justice is done in cases where juries and their families will be threatened by terrorists and crinimal gangs then feel free to pipe up. One solution might be for SF/IRA to stop threatening to kill jury members who convict their members?

monument

oscarBravo wrote:

I'd be inclined to disagree, but I'll wait for some specific examples.

The SCC is an unfortunate necessity in an environment where the perpetrators of serious crimes were walking free because of their intimidation of juries.

That sounds somewhat like an IRA supporter saying that that baseball-bat-policing is 'necessity in an environment where' blah blah blah, or the UK/UK saying that torture is 'necessity in an environment where'…

oscarBravo wrote:

You're overstating the case somewhat. If you read their position paper on Garda reform, you'll find it mostly offers constructive suggestions rather than expressing a "problem with our police".

No, I have just said they have a problem with our police, I didn’t state (or mean to imply) what level of a problem they have.

mycroft

monument wrote:

The state convicting people with “no verifiable evidence" isn’t a world away from such.

Agreed. the court is a disgrace. But it's creation was forced by the IRA and their constant walking from ordinary courts because of jury intimidation.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties has a problem with our Special Kangaroo Court. They have also called for Garda reform, so I guess they have a problem with our police too.

One would have to wonder what they'd make of IRA courts if they were allowed access, I'm sure amnesty and the red cross would have some words about IRA justice as well.

monument

mycroft wrote:

One would have to wonder what they'd make of IRA courts if they were allowed access, I'm sure amnesty and the red cross would have some words about IRA justice as well.

I’m sure they would, but one has to expect more from the state which, unlike the IRA, is supposed to be accountable, and which is supposed to dispense proper justice.

true

monument wrote:

I’m sure they would, but one has to expect more from the state which, unlike the IRA, is supposed to be accountable, and which is supposed to dispense proper justice.

The state and courts are generally accountable, and strive to dispense proper justice. However, it is not easy when you have had groups like the IRA blowing up courts, intimidating witnesses, murdering judges ( eg Justice Gibson and his wife just north of the border, as he returned home from a rare visit to the south ) etc etc. If it were not for the provies / RAfia, we would have had a better society.

mycroft

monument wrote:

I’m sure they would, but one has to expect more from the state which, unlike the IRA, is supposed to be accountable, and which is supposed to dispense proper justice.

The IRA dress their ex judicary killings in the robes of a proper court, theres, a judge, defence council, the case aganist the defendent is made, and a judgement is carried out. The fact that these trials make the average drumhead trial during the napoleonic wars look like the the retrial of the birmingham six. What about the judge dread esque kneecapping by IRA community police officers, judge jury and executioneers?

They call themselves an army. A government and a community is just a group agreeing to a set of guidelines and laws to govern themselves. So therefore a defendent of the IRA who decries the tactics of SCC while at the same time creating a ex judicary court is a bald faced hyprocrite.

This is the essential problem with the IRA. The IRA view themselves as an army at war. They expect to be treated as such. Yet dont feel any conflict in targeting civilians, support structure, or murdering those who oppose them.

They don't see themselves at a group of thugs, they see themselves as a army at war, and expected to be treated as such when captured. They just didn't adhere to the geneva convention themselves.

So let me break it down for you, an organisation complaining about the legality of a court when they themselves created the atmosphere making it necessary to create these courts, while at the same time creating their own ex judical courts, and regularly allow and authorise gangs to go out armed with 45's and baseball bats to administer justice, without a court of appeal, and ten years after the cease fire feel that these thugs are still necessary, despite the fact that thirty years of kneecapping proves that this kind of harsh deterrant is not working.

And after all this, the murders, the unmarked graves, the ira courts without appeal, the kneecappings; Sinn Feiners are complaining about justice is just a tad rich

monument

That sounds somewhat like an IRA supporter saying that that baseball-bat-policing is 'necessity in an environment where' blah blah blah, or the UK/UK saying that torture is 'necessity in an environment where'

I posted the above just a few posts ago, not only is your argument using this excuse that something is a 'necessity in an environment where' (sic) or ‘the atmosphere making it necessary’ (sic), but you are also apparently saying that a greater wrong excuses lesser wrongs.

Do you actually think that a greater wrong excuses lesser wrongs?

Or is it only in the case of the IRA and anyone who might share their goals, regardless of whether such people agree with their means?

Moriarty

.. or that one is under the checks and balances of elected representitives aswell as state law, while the other is a bunch of thugs having a good time?

mycroft

monument wrote:

I posted the above just a few posts ago, not only is your argument using this excuse that something is a 'necessity in an environment where' (sic) or ‘the atmosphere making it necessary’ (sic), but you are also apparently saying that a greater wrong excuses lesser wrongs.

Do you actually think that a greater wrong excuses lesser wrongs?

Or is it only in the case of the IRA and anyone who might share their goals, regardless of whether such people agree with their means?

For starts you're wandering out of the realm of concrete politics and roaming around in philosophy.

Comparing the special criminal court to G bay, or arrest without trial is wrong.

For starts the special criminal court was set up as a reaction to IRA tactics of jury intimidation. Born out of necessisity because thugs and criminals were walking away. Theres no evidence that this would occur in the case of suspected terror suspects held in G bay, they've just decided to through a loop hole to do away with any inconvenient human rights.

One only needs to look back a few weeks to see Colm Murphy was freed on appeal, so, even this draconian measure you feel is "a greater evil" than IRA kangroo courts has it's weakness, if the special criminal court was truly draconian it would not have the option to appeal its sentence. There is no court of appeal for the victims of IRA "justice".

But onto your point, no I don't think a greater wrong justifies a lesser wrong, but then, I'm also a realist, if your hands are tied by rule of law, and you're fighting an organisation actively perverting the course of justice, what do you do? Allow guilt men to walk free and kill again?

The SCC is an imperfect tool in an imperfect world, and I wish it did not exist, but there are people in this country who force it to be a necessisity.

A Dub in Glasgo

Imperfect tool in an imperfect world but some people force us to implement it? That line of justification sounds very familiar to some of the less savoury policies implemented the world over. Internment, inhuman and degrading treatment of detainees and the like.

monument

mycroft, can I take that you only think a greater wrong excuses lesser wrongs only in the case of the IRA and anyone who might share their goals, regardless of whether such people agree with their means?

In other words, a greater wrong excuses lesser wrongs when you feel like it.

Sand

Monument, its good that you are constantly questioning the need for the SCC. We all should. We can never allow it to be seen as normal - it is an exceptional court, created to face a real and critical threat to the security of this democratic state. It was created by the representives of the people and ultimately it is answerable to the people. The IRA are answerable to no one. Not even to you. Thats an important difference.

Id ask you to come up with a better solution to trying members of criminal and terrorist organisations that intefere with trials through threats against witnessess and jury members. I would love to hear it. I will happily embrace any workable solution that doesnt involve the SCC. But you dont have one - I absolutely guarantee you dont have a solution that trumps the difficult decision reached by an elected government with immense legal and law enforcement advice to draw upon. Effectively without the SCC securing convictions against gangsters, drug barons and terrorists would be close to impossible due to intimidation - look how frightened people are in the McCartney murder.

Does the SCC go against certain norms of justice? Yes, it does. No one denies that. But even if it does it is simply another of the hypocrises that liberal democratic society is built on. We should never *not* question the need for the SCC, but we should also beware of the sinister motives of subversives and their apologists who attempt to destroy the elected governments most potent weapon against terrorists and drug gangs.