ATM Card fraud

sector

Well I can verify with personal experience that this is on the increase!

My very own ATM was cloned somewhere (I believe on st stephens green) and used over the weekend for several max withdrawals.

I've reported this to the Gardai & the bank of course and am unsure what will happen or even at this point if I will get my money back, now I think I should as it's their system that failed and they need to react to the problem of this type of fairly new fraud, not me. I don't think a cctv cuts the mustard any more, what do you guys think?

With the advent of the chip & pin system etc for credit cards, does anyone know if they are doing anything for ATM's cards?

Interested to hear from anyone that this has happened too as well...

I'm also very annoyed that I was caught with this type of thing, after many years of using my cc's online with ebay & other various things I was never ripped off, and then it's my stupid ATM card that gets ripped, I couldn't believe it!

BuffyBot

I've reported this to the Gardai & the bank of course and am unsure what will happen or even at this point if I will get my money back

Well, the best people to ask are your bank branch, who will most likely be the ones to make the desicion.

now I think I should as it's their system that failed and they need to react to the problem of this type of fairly new fraud, not me.

Ermm..how did it fail? To all intents and purposes, the fraudsters had *your* card, and *your* PIN. You alone are responsible for the safety of these two items regardless of what may have happened.

With the advent of the chip & pin system etc for credit cards, does anyone know if they are doing anything for ATM's cards?

Your ATM card already has a PIN.

RuggieBear

i'm pretty sure that the pin numbers are "breakable".

20months ago someone got into my house thru a rear window i left open accidently for the first time ever, got my wallet, which i had left on the dinning room table (again for the first time) and with my atm cards was able to withdraw 800euro from 2 accounts.....

banks didn't want to know.....my pin.... my problem

sector

BuffyBot wrote:

Well, the best people to ask are your bank branch, who will most likely be the ones to make the desicion.

buffybot, yes clearly the bank has the answers but they have nothing to say at this point until they have "investigated" hence I am unsure of the outcome as it has not been made clear to me as of yet.

BuffyBot wrote:

Ermm..how did it fail? To all intents and purposes, the fraudsters had *your* card, and *your* PIN. You alone are responsible for the safety of these two items regardless of what may have happened.

Also if you even posess an ATM card i think if you look at it it will state it's the property of the bank not *mine* as you put it. The pin is assigned, I realise you have the opportunity to change it but unless you do that on a daily basis one pin is as good as another. do I really need to explain how their system failed, have you missed the point of the thread?

BuffyBot wrote:

Your ATM card already has a PIN.

And if you don't know any information about the future of ATM card security then please don't comment, I think everyone is aware that an ATM card is assigned a PIN number.

sector

RuggieBear wrote:

i'm pretty sure that the pin numbers are "breakable".

20months ago someone got into my house thru a rear window i left open accidently for the first time ever, got my wallet, which i had left on the dinning room table (again for the first time) and with my atm cards was able to withdraw 800euro from 2 accounts.....

banks didn't want to know.....my pin.... my problem

RuggieBear, man that's bad news, especially considering my situation!
Sorry to hear of your loss, and you never received any compensation at all?

Could it be possible that your pin was written somewhere in your wallet, even in another form like a D.O.B. - I know you've probably gone over it & the answer is likely no so it would suggest they either guessed (which I doubt as don't they record 3 wrong pins then the card gets swallowed) or they already knew the PIN somehow (scary).

I'll be sure & post back on the outcome of mine, thanks.

RuggieBear

sector wrote:

RuggieBear, man that's bad news, especially considering my situation!
Sorry to hear of your loss, and you never received any compensation at all?

Could it be possible that your pin was written somewhere in your wallet, even in another form like a D.O.B. - I know you've probably gone over it & the answer is likely no so it would suggest they either guessed (which I doubt as don't they record 3 wrong pins then the card gets swallowed) or they already knew the PIN somehow (scary).

I'll be sure & post back on the outcome of mine, thanks.

no the pin wasn't written down anywhere. I had a few other small things stolen too....top of the range minidisc, mobile phone....small jewellery....

worst bit was i had just changed my house insurance to a cheaper policy by upping my excess to 500 euro from a 100.... Got 45 euro from the insurance company for the other items...nothing for the cash......cost me about 1200euro all together.

Raggamuffin

well i just had my ATM skimmed at some point and 600 euro was withdrawn over this weekend.

buggered up my week off and now i'm oretty much broke until payday.

Although AIB did say i would be refunded after they conduct an investigation in the next 10 working days.

I told the garda straight away even phoned from the police station.

Despite the severity of the crime (i happen to think it pretty serious given the lengths to which people would go to commit such a crime indicates some form of organisation behind it) the garda was relatively placid about the whole thing and i was'nt really convinced that they would follow it up extensively.

Well it's early days but i have to say i'm a bit shocked. anyway you asked if anyone recently has and there ya go

Michael Collins

sector wrote:

...or they already knew the PIN somehow (scary)...

Well yeh one of the ways of doing that is where they have a camera above the ATM machine which wirelessly transmits video to a car nearby where they watch you enter you pin. Not sure how they'd manage to clone it though. I doubt they could have fooled you into entering it into a card copier, they must've got a hold of the card some how?

kasintahan

RuggieBear wrote:

i'm pretty sure that the pin numbers are "breakable".

Is the pin encoded into mag strip?

I seriously doubt it. They must have known (or knew someone who knew) the pin.

ranDom_tAsk

This happened to my mother in October last, €800 in total was taken from her account. She said she knew when it happened, because when she put her ATM card in the mchine it went in very slow and she thinks that's when it happened, but at the time she didn't really think to deeply about it.

In the end she got her money back from the bank, thank Jesus lol .

There're loads of ATM scams going on at the moment, I heard that now they are using false number pads on the ATM machines to get your number :eek: !

ballooba

They skim the card as it is entering the atm.

i.e. they stick their own card reader over the atm card reader but blend it in so that you don't notice. They then photo you putting in your pin.

The then take the skimmed data and encode it onto blank cards and withdraw your funds.

bounty

they use miniture cameras pointed at the keypad, and fake swipes to get card info

serves you right for not being cautious

ranDom_tAsk

bounty wrote:

serves you right for not being cautious

So your keep your money under the mattress ?

GerardKeating

BuffyBot wrote:

Your ATM card already has a PIN.

The question was about "Chip & Pin", not just pin.

And there are no plans for ATM Chip & Pin chards this year.

All AIB ATM machines are Chip enabled, but this is for the Credit cards.

sector

Raggamuffin wrote:

well i just had my ATM skimmed at some point and 600 euro was withdrawn over this weekend.

Keep me posted (pardon the pun!)

Looks like it's an increasing problem over the last while, something extra needs to be done to avoid it wouldn't you agree.

mise

Think this is definitely something the banks need to combat. After all, they provide the service, they need the customer to survive just like any other business. There service is, in the most simple terms, to keep your money safe. If the point on distribution is not safe well then they are not keeping to their side of the deal. A lot of ATMs have camaras on them and still this problem seems to occur.
I think that someone from the bank should have to periodically do a quick check on the machines, and know what to look for. There business is a service to the customer, so I don't think they can just say that the customer has to be more cautious. I'm all for caution on both sides, don't get me wrong, I just think the banks are getting off lightly
End of rant

MrPudding

kasintahan wrote:

Is the pin encoded into mag strip?

I seriously doubt it. They must have known (or knew someone who knew) the pin.

Only an indentifier is stored on the card. Not the pin. When you type in your pin it is encrypted by the keypad unit. There are very strict controls on how quickly this encryption happens, it happens very fast. My understanding is that this newly created hash of your PIN is compared to the stored one. If they match you are authorised. You PIN is nopt processed "in the clear" at all by the ATM itself.

MrP

aphex™

So can we get a list of the ATM's that this happened on? St. Stephens green- where abouts?

I know they're long gone, but just out of interest.
I always cover my typing hand with the other one. I also check the front of the machine for a card reader. A little tug of the bit where your card goes in does it. Glance upright for a camera that might look like it's built into the machine.

I've come accross 2 machines lately where the keys on the keypads have been all stuck together- wonder whats the story with this. Happned at the ATM in Sandyford near centra & Permanent tsb in grafton street (luckily the guy from the back was on hand to get my card out of the machine for me). I nearly ripped the front of it off looking for a camera.

seamus

I've gotten into the habit now of inspecting the area around the ATM briefly for anything I don't recognise as having been there before, and also checking the slot where the card goes in, that it's not easily removable, and nothing foreign in it.

Gavin

Same happened to a friend of mine over the weekend. 750 quid taken out. SHe reported it to the bank and they took out a further 250 this morning !! The bank didn't tell her to clean her account out or to freeze it or anything.

We suspect it could possibly have been one of those portable type ATM's in the superquinn balinteer.

Is there any chance she'll gte her money back ? The bank are not being very forthcoming.

Gav

sector

aphex&#8482 wrote:

So can we get a list of the ATM's that this happened on? St. Stephens green- where abouts?

I know they're long gone, but just out of interest.
I always cover my typing hand with the other one. I also check the front of the machine for a card reader. A little tug of the bit where your card goes in does it. Glance upright for a camera that might look like it's built into the machine.

I've come accross 2 machines lately where the keys on the keypads have been all stuck together- wonder whats the story with this. Happned at the ATM in Sandyford near centra & Permanent tsb in grafton street (luckily the guy from the back was on hand to get my card out of the machine for me). I nearly ripped the front of it off looking for a camera.

I can't say for sure so I won't condemn a certain ATM without more of an indication.

sector

seamus wrote:

I've gotten into the habit now of inspecting the area around the ATM briefly for anything I don't recognise as having been there before, and also checking the slot where the card goes in, that it's not easily removable, and nothing foreign in it.

Good thinking, I will be joining you at that my friend.

sector

Verb wrote:

Same happened to a friend of mine over the weekend. 750 quid taken out. SHe reported it to the bank and they took out a further 250 this morning !! The bank didn't tell her to clean her account out or to freeze it or anything.

We suspect it could possibly have been one of those portable type ATM's in the superquinn balinteer.

Is there any chance she'll gte her money back ? The bank are not being very forthcoming.

Gav

My bank want to investigate but it was indicated that I would get my money back.
I presume they will pull the CCTV as the first of the two rip off transactions was at one of their own ATM's!!

Didn't they send your sister to the guards?
- they sent me & I had to return with a report stamped by the station (their insurance probably needs it)

First thing I did was to change my PIN which you can do at some of the ATM's now, at least at your own banks. This also gave them one more point of fraud as I told them I wouldn't use my card at all since I changed the PIN so you would presume the criminal would come along yesterday (I changed the PIN Sunday) and enter the old PIN once maybe twice before he spilts so they could get more video of the crime, albeit attempted at that point.

Guy:Incognito

I usually use bank machines in shopping centres ( i work in the square). I would have thought it would be harder to install a card reader and/or camera in the middel of a busy shopping centre so they should be relativly secure. Also the protable machines in a lot of shop only have a reader that you insert and remove your card. These readers seem to be alot more open and therefore would be harder for thieves to install their own reader into.

Our man in Havana

Merl1n wrote:

:d

tinkerbell

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, but just reading the other thread on AIB, it directed me here.

Just wondering, how would you know if those card readers, etc. was in the machine, and the camera, etc?

All this stuff about taking €800 our of your a/c is kinda scary :eek:

Gavin

As far as I'm aware, the technology they use involves literally attaching a card reader over the socket of the ATMs card reader & possibly attaching a camera to the ATM so as to catch your PIN. Although it's possible that someone could be behind you, or watching via binoculars(!) to get your PIN.

What I do now is have a look at the machine for anything obvious on the card reader or at the top for a camera. I give the socket a quick tug, and when I'm putting my PIN in, I keep my hand/wallet over the keypad.

I've left my cash withdrawal amount quite low as well, so as if my card is copied, I won't lose too much. Any large purchase can be done with the credit card.

Gav

sector

In my case it was a lot more than €800 but the good news is that the bank is refunding the money as they have verified that it was fraud.

Obviously insurance takes care of it but this is a serious issue, I am still interested in hearing more about this if anyone has had any bad experiences.

Rgds