So unprepared....

Nuttzz

I was amazed this morning at how many people thought the could drive as if it were a summers day this morning. I witnessed 3 accidents, had to contend with numerous idiots driving up my rear and trying to overtake despite the road being white with frozen snow, one of which spun at a roundabout in front of me after overtaking.

Driver eduaction is one thing but this was just downright stupidity this morning

ando

Well if the traffic was moving this morning I could of added to this thread. I was stuck for over an hour, on half a mile of road

unkel

Yep, last time there was some snow around in Lucan there were many cars driven straight into roundabouts :rolleyes:

samo

Came across exactly the same thing...

At one stage there was a car in front of me doing about 15-20 MPH at most (Sorry still cant do KM!) down a long stretch of road, which was fair enough considering the conditions. Some fecker in a new 05 landcruiser thought he was great overtaking the 2 of us and narrowly missed slamming in to some poor old dear in a micra who was exiting an estate and had gone into a skid.

It's one of the closest near misses I've seen in a long time.

BrianD3

Tell me about it. The country roads I was driving on this morning were absolutely lethal. 5-10 mph was the max safe speed, people were getting stuck on hills and driving into ditches etc. Yet there were still some crazy morons
1) overtaking
2) driving 10 feet behind the car in front
3) driving with no lights or just parking lights
4) driving with frosted up windscreens

Also saw a few gobsh1tes in 4x4s travelling far too fast for the conditions. I suppose they though the extra "grip" from the 4wd would save them when they braked or drove round a bend :rolleyes:

Also, why do the AA and others persist with giving out advice to "drive in the highest gear possible in ice and snow". This is absolute rubbish.

BrianD3

Andrew Duffy

Some woman very nearly redecorated the entrance gate to the carpark of my building as she was leaving it this morning - her car was an Astra coupe so I assume the ABS saved it.

On the other hand I got a bus driven by a fifty-year-old-ish driver and he was impeccable - I wish I was as experienced as him. Watching all the wheel spinning and sliding going on around the bus was fun.

Incidentally, does an automatic gearbox adjust for the loss of traction in snow and start in a higher gear, or do you just have to be very very light on the accelerator?

mike65

Ice? Snow? Whats that?!

Lovely early spring day here...

Mike.

unkel

mike65 wrote:

Lovely early spring day here...

Talked to someone from Waterford yesterday and she said there was several inches of snow!

Maybe you're near the sea?

ambro25

Well, I rather enjoyed 'discovering' the behaviour of my Impreza on the white stuff this morning.

Not all that it's cracked up to be (terrible understeer), so I'm with all above who have voiced concerns about the false sense of safety of 4x4 idiots (I confess to having been one for 30 seconds, and for experimentation only, this morning).

One slippy-slide at the end of the estate road (still off public roads, though) was enough.

unkel

False sense of safety indeed! ABS doesn't really help much either

Alun

BrianD3 wrote:

Also, why do the AA and others persist with giving out advice to "drive in the highest gear possible in ice and snow". This is absolute rubbish.

Is it? I learned to drive in the snow and ice in Germany, and that was the advice that was always given to me there. Note that this doesn't mean drive as fast as possible, which some Irish drivers may interpret this as meaning, merely to use as high a gear as is practically possible without the engine bogging down. Makes perfect sense to me.

mike65

unkel wrote:

Talked to someone from Waterford yesterday and she said there was several inches of snow!

Maybe you're near the sea?

That was yesterday..I'm in the city. It was snowy above about 100 metres and icy lower down but did'nt last too long. Its filling in as I speak so we may get some snow this afternoon.

Mike.

mike65

As for the gears/speed thing, its simple enough, you want to be trickling along in a gear thats high enough not to cause sudden engine breaking but not so high as to require you to change down more than very occasionaly.

I imagine autoboxes are better in icy conditions if working properly.

Mike.

dealgan

Not this morning, but Yesterday morning I met a guy driving a red hiace or transit, not sure which, as I was distracted by the driver's head sticking out through the drivers window, because the windscreen was still frozen !

Unreal.

BrianD3

Is it? I learned to drive in the snow and ice in Germany, and that was the advice that was always given to me there. Note that this doesn't mean drive as fast as possible, which some Irish drivers may interpret this as meaning, merely to use as high a gear as is practically possible without the engine bogging down. Makes perfect sense to me.

The problem with purposely driving in a higher gear is that the car will travel faster and "get away from you" more easily than it would at the same revs in the correct gear. This is bad enough on a flat icy road when you're trying to keep the speed down while being as gentle with the controls as possible. But if you are coming down an icy hill then it's pure madness. I've seen what happens - people are driving at 20 mph in 3rd gear, they come to a hill and start to go down it. Very quickly they find the car starting to speed up and go out of control. To slow down they either brake or change down a gear, both of which are highly lilkely to unsettle the car, lock the wheels, cause a spin etc. Stalling the engine and locking the wheels is another possibility.

BrianD3

Paul (MN)

this reminds me of when a few years ago we had heavyish snow. I live on a hill. My neighbour decided that he had to go up the hill in 1st gear, revving to the red line and driving the car from side to side to get traction. Everybody was watching him. What a performance!

I then stuck my Clio into 2nd gear and drove straight up no problems!

Alun

BrianD3 wrote:

The problem with purposely driving in a higher gear is that the car will travel faster and "get away from you" more easily than it would at the same revs in the correct gear. This is bad enough on a flat icy road when you're trying to keep the speed down while being as gentle with the controls as possible. But if you are coming down an icy hill then it's pure madness. I've seen what happens - people are driving at 20 mph in 3rd gear, they come to a hill and start to go down it. Very quickly they find the car starting to speed up and go out of control. To slow down they either brake or change down a gear, both of which are highly lilkely to unsettle the car, lock the wheels, cause a spin etc. Stalling the engine and locking the wheels is another possibility.

BrianD3

As far as I can recall, the rationale behind using as high a gear as possible is to reduce the amount of torque available at the driving wheels so as to avoid wheelspin. In addition it also reduces the sensitivity of the car to slight inputs to the accelerator rather than increase it I'd have thought. Try driving at 30mph in 5th gear and depress the accelerator ... not much happens (unless you're driving a very powerful car), whereas doing the same in third or even second gear will result in a much more noticeable effect.

Clearly when descending a hill this does not apply and one should use engine braking in preference to the brakes to slow one's descent.

I should point out that I was taught this (And other things) at a Winter Driving Course organised by the ADAC and taught by German police driving instructors. I'm rather more inclined to accept their teachings than those of "some bloke on the internet"

declanoneill

Alun wrote:

Clearly when descending a hill this does not apply and one should use engine braking in preference to the brakes to slow one's descent.

What is "engine breaking"?

seamus

Alun wrote:

As far as I can recall, the rationale behind using as high a gear as possible is to reduce the amount of torque available at the driving wheels so as to avoid wheelspin. In addition it also reduces the sensitivity of the car to slight inputs to the accelerator rather than increase it I'd have thought. Try driving at 30mph in 5th gear and depress the accelerator ... not much happens (unless you're driving a very powerful car), whereas doing the same in third or even second gear will result in a much more noticeable effect.

Correct. Try driving a motorcycle on snowy/icy roads and it'll become much more apparent why driving in a high gear is a good idea.

ambro25

let the engine brake the car by leaving your foot off the accelerator, but the gear engaged.

As I understand it, a lot of instructor nowadays (at least in the UK) tell young drivers to clutch & gear completely out and just use brakes when coming up to a stop/light (as opposed to using both, which I was taught not so many years ago: light braking & gradual downshifting, clutching out from 2nd when the car just about stops)

Result: questions such as above & lots of fender benders in weather like today. :mad:

BTW, Alun is totally on the ball re. higher gear / less torque +when in snow conditions.

Blitzkrieger

God bless well-traveled impecabbly sufaced main roads. I drove in at my usual speed this morning.

*looks smug

BrianD3

Re: driving in a higher gear. Most accidents in ice and snow are caused by people failing to slow down sufficiently for bends, coming down hills too fast and being unable to stop, going straight through roundabouts and T-junctions, panicking and locking brakes etc. And driving in a higher gear than normal *will* decrease the control you have over the car when slowing down, increase the need to brake and increase the chance of having to drop down a gear in order to slow down/not stall.

It is true that the car is more sensitive to the throttle in the correct gear, however if the driver is very smooth and progressive with the throttle and keeps the revs (and therefore speed) low there shouldn't be a problem and the wheels should not spin. It's also true that using a higher gear *may* help when going up a steep hill.

However I don't see too many crashes caused by people being over vigorous with the throttle and spinning wheels compared to the number of accidents caused by people failing to slow down for junctions etc. so I think on balance the advice to drive in the highest gear possible is very dubious.

BrianD3

magpie

lot of instructor nowadays (at least in the UK) tell young drivers to clutch & gear completely out and just use brakes when coming up to a stop/light

That's terrible. When I was learning to drive I was taught to change down to 2nd then engage clutch just before a stall. I was lead to believe that cruising to a halt on the clutch was a test-failure offence.

Guy:Incognito

People on this country seem to take one of two approaches in extreme conditions, either panic or act as if it doesnt exist. We badly need an update to the methods used to teach people to drive.

ambro25

BrianD3 wrote:

Re: driving in a higher gear. Most accidents in ice and snow are caused by people failing to slow down sufficiently for bends, coming down hills too fast and being unable to stop, going straight through roundabouts and T-junctions, panicking and locking brakes etc. And driving in a higher gear than normal *will* decrease the control you have over the car when slowing down, increase the need to brake and increase the chance of having to drop down a gear in order to slow down/not stall.

Obviously yes, if you can't regulate what speed you're driving at (e.g. 20 mph), irrespective of the gear you're driving in (e.g. 4th). :rolleyes:

BrianD3 wrote:

It is true that the car is more sensitive to the throttle in the correct gear, however if the driver is very smooth and progressive with the throttle and keeps the revs (and therefore speed) low there shouldn't be a problem and the wheels should not spin. It's also true that using a higher gear *may* help when going up a steep hill.

"if the driver is very smooth and progressive" (with whatever), he won't need to drive in high or low gear whatsoever, and just have a natural and accurate feel for wheel traction, gear change as/when required, minor throttle adjustments according to surface and expected lateral load in bends, etc, etc.

BrianD3 wrote:

However I don't see too many crashes caused by people being over vigorous with the throttle and spinning wheels compared to the number of accidents caused by people failing to slow down for junctions etc. so I think on balance the advice to drive in the highest gear possible is very dubious.

Failing to slow down = people being over vigorous with the throttle, no?
We're talking about an appropriate gear to drive in, here, not speed. And the lower the engine capacity, the higher the revving required to obtain sufficient torque to move the car (BTW, more revs = less control on slipping surfaces, BrianD), therefore the higher the requirement to drive in high gear.
(However, and perversely, the lower the engine capacity, the thinner the tyres and -potentially- the lesser the risk of loss of traction on snow).

seamus

A higher gear will also help your traction when going around corners, provided it doesn't hinder you to the point where you have to brake or change down.

Borzoi

Blitzkrieger wrote:

God bless well-traveled impecabbly sufaced main roads. I drove in at my usual speed this morning.

*looks smug

Are you foreign?

BrianD3

ambro25 wrote:

"if the driver is very smooth and progressive" (with whatever), he won't need to drive in high or low gear whatsoever, and just have a natural and accurate feel for wheel traction, gear change as/when required, minor throttle adjustments according to surface and expected lateral load in bends, etc, etc.

Exactly. Which is why the general advice to "drive in the highest gear possible" is misleading advice. Better advice would be to drive in the correct gear for the speed you're travelling at without revving the engine too much or causing it to labour while at the same time using the engine to regulate your speed to reduce the need for braking and gearchanges. And of course it goes without saying that all controls should be used as little and as gently/smoothly as possible.

Failing to slow down = people being over vigorous with the throttle, no?

Not really. When people want to slow down they're generally not being "vigorous" with the throttle at all. Ever see someone spinning their wheels as they're trying to slow down for a T-junction on an icy road? Didn't think so. Therefore the point about extra torque in lower gears causing wheelspin is irrelevant in these scenarios.

BrianD3

ambro25

BrianD3 wrote:

Exactly. Which is why the general advice to "drive in the highest gear possible" is misleading advice. Better advice would be to drive in the correct gear for the speed you're travelling at without revving the engine too much or causing it to labour while at the same time using the engine to regulate your speed to reduce the need for braking and gearchanges.

That's all fine and dandy - but not everyone is blessed with your level of coordination or mine, particularly in hazardous driving conditions (refer. the 'panicking' comment above for people experiencing driving on snow for the first time, or just of a nervous disposition in such situation). So "drive in the highest gear possible" is excellent advice, to prevent people from:
1. driving as they normally would, on a surface with a subtantial amount of traction to which they are used (dry / wet)
2. in this respect, accelerating 'off-the-mark' as quickly (and therefore gathering momentum faster than cautious in slippery conditions)
3. over-torquing too 'dramatically' when just past the traction threshold (with an immediately-very fast wheelspin) as opposed to suffering a much slower and easier to correct wheelspin (since the higher-gear / lower torque engine revs results in slower wheel revolution).

BrianD3 wrote:

ambro25 wrote:

Failing to slow down = people being over vigorous with the throttle, no?

Not really. When people want to slow down they're generally not being "vigorous" with the throttle at all. Ever see someone spinning their wheels as they're trying to slow down for a T-junction on an icy road? Didn't think so. Therefore the point about extra torque in lower gears causing wheelspin is irrelevant in these scenarios.

Sorry, my bad - rephrasing required:

Failing to slow down = people having been over vigorous with the throttle before failing to slow down, no?

Clearer?

Kell

Surely if the councils had actually gritted the roads there wouldnt be so many problems. The weather has been sub zero over night for several nights and I havnt seen one gritter. Has anyone?

Me wonders again what the fúck I pay tax for.

K-

seamus

BrianD3 wrote:

Ever see someone spinning their wheels as they're trying to slow down for a T-junction on an icy road? Didn't think so. Therefore the point about extra torque in lower gears causing wheelspin is irrelevant in these scenarios.

The increased engine breaking caused by lower gears can cause the wheels to lock, and the vehicle to skid. A higher gear, while you have a reduced effect of engine breaking, you're once again less likely to spin out on a corner if you need to ease up on the throttle.

A higher gear allows a little extra room for inexperience and basic human error. "Drive better" is all well and good, but ultimately not the best advice.