Getting rid of ciminals in the IRA - sure fire plan. Decriminalise.

A Dub in Glasgo

jbkenn wrote:

Bobby "No thanks, I think I'll skip lunch today" Sands,

You know, that is probably the most childish and immature thing posted here. Are you sure you are even aged over 13?

What is next? Terence 'I have lasted 74 days without breakfast, lunch and dinner!' MacSwiney? Childish stuff.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Yes and the mass evicting of Catholics with the tacit support of the police cannot be construed as a pogrom.

Do us all a favour, check out your facts

That's exactly the petty sniping I mean, you still haven't addressed my point jbkenn. Terence McSwiney died on hunger strike in Brixton Prison, is he to be the butt of your bad jokes next?

Why dont Sinn Fein sell his T-Shirts so?, by the way without looking them up can you name the rest of the hunger strikers who died?, and, are they not deserving of being immortalised on T-Shirts as well?.

To be replaced with the sectarian colluders of the RIR.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/602086.stm

can't get the link to work, and, bowing to your expertise on all things, I will take your word for it.

jbkenn

FTA69

Do us all a favour, check out your facts

So you are saying the RUC and B Specials didn't stand by in places like Bombay St while dozens of families had their houses torched?

Why dont Sinn Fein sell his T-Shirts so?, by the way without looking them up can you name the rest of the hunger strikers who died?, and, are they not deserving of being immortalised on T-Shirts as well?.

Sinn Féin have extensive memorabilia regarding that phase in our conflict, McSwiney features on many items along with other Irish hunger strikers such as Michael Gaughan and Frank Stagg. Can I name the other 9 H-Block martyrs? Easily. Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O'Hara (INLA), Joe McDonnell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch (INLA), Kieran Doherty, Thomas McElwee, Mickey Devine (INLA). Items featuring all of these as well as other Irish hunger strikers can be purchased, the reason Bobby Sands usually predominates such items is because he was the first and most prominent striker to die.

can't get the link to work, and, bowing to your expertise on all things, I will take your word for it.

Shame, it works perfectly for me. For your information it shows about 50 RIR soldiers posing with an Orange Order pendant saying "Spirit of Drumcree".

A Dub in Glasgo

For jbkenn

Thursday, 13 January, 2000, 14:19 GMT
Row over soldiers in Drumcree photo

Front page news: How the paper displayed the photograph


A row has erupted over the publication of a photograph showing soldiers allegedly supporting the Protestant Orange Order over their Drumcree protest.

The picture in this week's edition of the Andersonstown News, a weekly paper in nationalist west Belfast, shows around 70 uniformed Royal Irish Regiment members with what appears to be an Orange Order banner.

Orangemen have staged a long running campaign in a bid to reverse a decision preventing them marching down Portadown's Garvaghy Road in July 1998 and 1999.

The soldiers' picture appears beneath a bold headline in the paper which reads Royal Irish Bigotry.

The soldiers, whose regiment was formerly known as the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) are holding a banner which appears to read: "Drumcree: Here we stand, we can do no other. For religious and civil liberty."

Four photographs

Editor of the Andersonstown News Robin Livingstone said the paper had received four photographs and negatives anonymously in the post from a "regiment source" along with a cover note.

Robin Livingstone: 'Pictures genuine'
"We got the pictures and we were happy to print them, because we think it confirms everything we have been saying about the RIR and indeed the UDR for many years."

He said the photographs "which were very obviously posed" had not been tampered with by the newspaper and he was convinced they were "legitimate".

"The negatives are now with our solicitors and we have the prints which we will let anyone have access to. It has not been touched at all."

Sinn Fein assembly member Dara O'Hagan called for the abolition of the regiment and said the photograph "sums up everything in relation to the RIR".

Recruitment drive

She said the Ministry of Defence was spending vast amounts of money on a recruitment drive ostensibly aimed at Catholics.

"It will surprise few nationalists that nothing has changed with this sectarian force.

"Few will have difficulty accepting that to a person the membership of the RIR is pro-Orange Order, pro the siege of the Garvaghy Road, anti civil liberty and most definitely anti-Catholic."

Breandan MacCionnaith: Informing governments
This feeling was echoed by Breandan MacCionnaith of the nationalist Garvaghy Road Residents' Coalition, who are opposed to the Orange march.

He is to present copies of the picture to the British and Irish governments and raise the matter with Secretary of State Peter Mandelson.

"This is a pro-Orange, sectarian display by members of the RIR," he said.

"I don't think there's any doubt that a group of 50 or 60 armed men in full combat gear with British Army issue rifles, clearly inside a military installation, could be anything but genuine."

He claimed the RIR and the UDR over a number of years, particularly in certain areas had a "whole history of sectarianism".

The paper also claims to have other negatives and pictures which it has not published.

Army statement

In a statement the army said they would make no comment on the matter until it is confirmed that the photograph is genuine.



It added: "We expect the highest standard of conduct from all soldiers and if the photograph proves genuine it will be rigorously investigated. If it proved to be so "the circumstances in which it was taken will be rigorously investigated.

"We would point out that photographs can be taken in all sorts of circumstances which can subsequently be misinterpreted. For instance, soldiers from all nations have been pictured with captured emblems.

"We can confirm that the RIR welcomes recruits from across the entire community and indeed from north and south of the border.

"The regiment has not, as the article suggests, changed its policy. It has always welcomed recruits from across the entire community."

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

She mentioned that there were stories of an IRA member being involved in a sexual assault in the area, she never said anything about "rape gangs", which conjures up images of Rwanda or Somalia.

Time index 47:mins 15 Seconds

Marian Finucane

---

You were saying there that there was a kind of macho egotisttical "I'll use my power because I have it" mentality in the north among the IRA at the moment. Do you get the sense that there are other crimes being committed and that people figure that they are imune from being pursued by the law?
McCartney

---

Absoloutly Oh yes
Marian Finucane

---

Like What
McCartney

---

Well I mean, if the ultimate is murder, I would imagine there has been ...i mean I dont think these men turned into psychopaths on the 30th of january. or turned into criminals on 30th of january.

Time index 51 Minutes 40 Seconds

Marion Finucane

---

There's been a fierce amount of conversation and argument and debate and rows and whatever have you in recent times about criminality and the IRA in the north and it came to afore obviously with the big bank robbery, which are as most people are concerned is not half as important as a mans life, but nonetheless, it gave rise to all of this discussion. Do you have a sense that the IRA is turning into a kind of mafia in the north, or do you have any feeling for that , or evidence of that or what is the view north of the border on that?
McCartney

---

Well Roberts death, his murder seems to have highlighted that there is, and i hate to use the word criminality because it seems to be being over-used at the minute, but with his death seems to have highlighted that this is a serious problem at the moment....

---

Marian Finucane

---

Donna?
McCartney

---

Yes I amthe same
Marian Finucane

---

You were saying something about the "rafia"
McCartney

---

Well they are being referred to as the "rafia" now up north.
Marian Finucane

---

What does that mean
McCartney

---

Well it, well we would say RA iinstead of the IRA, we call it RA, so its RA mafia, Rafia instead of mafia, mafia type of activities, racketeering, drugs, rape, intimidation punishment shootings, and murder.

take another listen to the program FTA69.

Armchair?

Yeah armchair,

What political activism do you engage in billy out of curiosity?

I tend to vote for independent candidates in elections.

The only experience you are relying on is a statement you heard on the radio which you managed to misconstrue. I also happen to know Republicans from the Short Strand and the Markets, I've also been there myself and contrary to your deepest wishes the people there are not revolting against the Republican Movement

actually its not the only experience i have had with republicanism just the latest. a little click click boom boom will put down any "revolt" against the "rafia" no doubt, should the need arise.

The area records one of the highest Sinn Féin vote and has a long history of being defended by the IRA from both British, police and Loyalist incursions.

20 percent drop in the satisfaction rating for gerry adams, if you believe the corntrary then that is up to your self.

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You know, that is probably the most childish and immature thing posted here. Are you sure you are even aged over 13?

What is next? Terence 'I have lasted 74 days without breakfast, lunch and dinner!' MacSwiney? Childish stuff.

I am sure you do, I dont share Sinn Fein's reverence for the hunger strikers, or, for that matter, anyone else with a death wish for Ireland, I am more in favour of living for, and in Ireland, working for reconciliation and the betterment of society.

jbkenn

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

So you are saying the RUC and B Specials didn't stand by in places like Bombay St while dozens of families had their houses torched?

You are the one saying they stood by, check your facts.

Sinn Féin have extensive memorabilia regarding that phase in our conflict, McSwiney features on many items along with other Irish hunger strikers such as Michael Gaughan and Frank Stagg. Can I name the other 9 H-Block martyrs? Easily. Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O'Hara (INLA), Joe McDonnell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch (INLA), Kieran Doherty, Thomas McElwee, Mickey Devine (INLA). Items featuring all of these as well as other Irish hunger strikers can be purchased, the reason Bobby Sands usually predominates such items is because he was the first and most prominent striker to die.

Martyrs?, the reality is Bobby Sands, is just another piece of fundraising merchandise, if Sinn Fein had any respect for him they would'nt be selling his "memorabilia", the rest are just forgotten.

Shame, it works perfectly for me. For your information it shows about 50 RIR soldiers posing with an Orange Order pendant saying "Spirit of Drumcree".

A Dub in Glasgo has posted the content, I will respond to it.

jbkenn

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

For jbkenn

Have you read the article?

The picture in this week's edition of the Andersonstown News, a weekly paper in nationalist west Belfast, shows around 70 uniformed Royal Irish Regiment members with what appears to be an Orange Order banner.

I am not denying it could be.

The soldiers, whose regiment was formerly known as the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) are holding a banner which appears to read: "Drumcree: Here we stand, we can do no other. For religious and civil liberty."

The UDR is one of a number of Regiments amalgamated to form the RIR

Robin Livingstone: 'Pictures genuine'
"We got the pictures and we were happy to print them, because we think it confirms everything we have been saying about the RIR and indeed the UDR for many years."

"Few will have difficulty accepting that to a person the membership of the RIR is pro-Orange Order, pro the siege of the Garvaghy Road, anti civil liberty and most definitely anti-Catholic."

I have no doubt that there are members of the RIR who are dyed in the wool Loyalists, but, I have no doubt there are many who are not

It added: "We expect the highest standard of conduct from all soldiers and if the photograph proves genuine it will be rigorously investigated. If it proved to be so "the circumstances in which it was taken will be rigorously investigated.

"We would point out that photographs can be taken in all sorts of circumstances which can subsequently be misinterpreted. For instance, soldiers from all nations have been pictured with captured emblems.

"We can confirm that the RIR welcomes recruits from across the entire community and indeed from north and south of the border.

"The regiment has not, as the article suggests, changed its policy. It has always welcomed recruits from across the entire community."

Has there been any follow up on this by Sinn Fein?, the Irish and British Governments?, the BA? and if not, why not?

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo

jbkenn wrote:

Have you read the article?

Yes

I posted it here because you appeared to have a problem opening a standard link on the BBC website.

true

Photos can be easily doctored. If the IRA have access to stolen Gardai and RUC uniforms, which they have used to impersonate on occassion, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that this photo is forged in order to discredit the RIR.

FTA69

true wrote:

Photos can be easily doctored. If the IRA have access to stolen Gardai and RUC uniforms, which they have used to impersonate on occassion, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that this photo is forged in order to discredit the RIR.

Ah yes, the IRA (the cunning sods!) dressed 70 of their members up in British Army uniforms before smuggling them into a British Army base to have their faces plastered all over the media! Bless us...

You are the one saying they stood by, check your facts.

Yes and I am saying it now, what were the RUC (those who weren't taking part) doing while Loyalist mobs burned thousands of people from their homes?

Martyrs?

Yes a martyr, mar·tyr ( P ) Pronunciation Key (märtr)
n.
One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.

the reality is Bobby Sands, is just another piece of fundraising merchandise, if Sinn Fein had any respect for him they would'nt be selling his "memorabilia",

Bobby Sands means far, far more to us than fundraising boy. Selling his memorabilia publicises his message and the cause for which he died.

the rest are just forgotten.

By the likes of you maybe, someone who probably couldn't name them in the first place.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Bobby Sands means far, far more to us than fundraising boy. Selling his memorabilia publicises his message and the cause for which he died.

What message, what cause?, just merchandise.

By the likes of you maybe, someone who probably couldn't name them in the first place.

I did'nt think much of them in 1981, and I care less about them now, all I see is the needless waste of human life, so that some may prosper, and derive some warped legitimacy from their actions.

jbkenn

FTA69

What message, what cause?

The cause of political status for Irish Republican POWs and in the borader sense a free Ireland.

I did'nt think much of them in 1981, and I care less about them now, all I see is the needless waste of human life, so that some may prosper, and derive some warped legitimacy from their actions.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but looking at your earlier posts on the subject it seems you are largely ignorant on the subject of why we sell Hunger Strike items.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

The cause of political status for Irish Republican POWs and in the borader sense a free Ireland.

There never were any POW's, just criminals who got caught.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but looking at your earlier posts on the subject it seems you are largely ignorant on the subject of why we sell Hunger Strike items.

If you are that concerned about spreading the "message" why not give them away for free?, fact is, they are a nice little money spinner.

jbkenn

billy the squid

is there any chance i could get a reply to this from FTA69 seeing as he questioned me on IRA rape gangs.

FTA69

There never were any POW's, just criminals who got caught.

A bit like Terence McSwiney, he was a serial offender he was.

If you are that concerned about spreading the "message" why not give them away for free?, fact is, they are a nice little money spinner.

The money also goes towards continuing the Republican struggle.

is there any chance i could get a reply to this from FTA69 seeing as he questioned me on IRA rape gangs.

The woman mentions an incident of rape which may or may not have taken place. I never said all IRA members were saints and a member may well ahve been involved in the said incident. A Centra employee in my locality was convicted of rape a few years ago, it doesn't mean I bear a grudge against Centra though.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

The woman mentions an incident of rape which may or may not have taken place. I never said all IRA members were saints and a member may well ahve been involved in the said incident. A Centra employee in my locality was convicted of rape a few years ago, it doesn't mean I bear a grudge against Centra though.

This from the chap who says prison officers are not nice people (how many do you know personally?) - you're pretty handy at turning the generalisations on and off when the mood takes you.

unme

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It highlights the hypocrisy of people who pontificate about the non-use of violence when they really mean the violence of the Republican side.

I think it is understood by most thinking people that condemnation of murder and crime applies to all sides. If it is wrong, then it is always wrong. No need for a roll call.

When we have Sinn Fein representatives putting themselves up for election to our democratic institutions, it is to be expected that they will come under extra pressure regarding republican criminality linked to their party.

Anyway the old "why do you not mention the British or Loyalists" answer to any question of support for terrorism/criminality got silly a long time ago. When that line is used by republicans to side step a direct question, you can only expect more direct questions.

unme

FTA69 wrote:

A Centra employee in my locality was convicted of rape a few years ago, it doesn't mean I bear a grudge against Centra though.

I just love it when an analogy goes horribly wrong... and this one takes some beating. Can I borrow it please, I will credit you as the originator, I promise

By the way, you really should bear a grudge against Centra if it is discovered that they support rapists. But, of course they don't.

MadsL

Ah, Centra. For the way we live today.

A Dub in Glasgo

unme wrote:

I think it is understood by most thinking people that condemnation of murder and crime applies to all sides. If it is wrong, then it is always wrong. No need for a roll call.

Really?.... the evidence does not back that up

Anyway the old "why do you not mention the British or Loyalists" answer to any question of support for terrorism/criminality got silly a long time ago. When that line is used by republicans to side step a direct question, you can only expect more direct questions.

I offered one reason why it is raised. It is a valid reason as is your mind reader and default violence condemnation theory.

unme

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I offered one reason why it is raised. It is a valid reason as is your mind reader and default violence condemnation theory.

mind reader and default violence condemnation theory? I wish I could say I understood your reply

A Dub in Glasgo

unme wrote:

mind reader and default violence condemnation theory? I wish I could say I understood your reply

So could I

I was referring to your 1st paragraph where you stated that it is undestood that most thinking (whatever that means) people condemn all sides by default when it comes to violence (with the additional caveat of if it is wrong). The additional condemnation of Republicans is just that... additional.

unme

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I was referring to your 1st paragraph where you stated that it is undestood that most thinking (whatever that means) people condemn all sides by default when it comes to violence (with the additional caveat of if it is wrong). The additional condemnation of Republicans is just that... additional.

OK. By 'thinking people', I meant people who think for themselves, as opposed to those who tend to look for a lead from an organisation or political party.

If you said to me that you condemn murder, I would understand that to mean murder by republicans, loyalists, mafia, drug gangs, everyone alike. Everything I say about republicans criminality equally applies to all. I understand that to be the same for most people, but it may suit some groups to plead victimisation.

A Dub in Glasgo

unme wrote:

OK. By 'thinking people', I meant people who think for themselves, as opposed to those who tend to look for a lead from an organisation or political party.

If you said to me that you condemn murder, I would understand that to mean murder by republicans, loyalists, mafia, drug gangs, everyone alike. Everything I say about republicans criminality equally applies to all. I understand that to be the same for most people, but it may suit some groups to plead victimisation.

It may suit some to plead victimisation but it may suit some people to mean murder only when it is an illegal group. If it is a legal group, apparantly it is a tragedy, collateral damage, lesser of 2 evils, an accident, **** happens etc. I am not convinced that all the people who scream murder when illegal groups do it will scream murder of innocents when the state does it.

As for 'thinking people', a lot of people seem look exclusively to the likes of the Indo for a lead.

true

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

As for 'thinking people', a lot of people seem look exclusively to the likes of the Indo for a lead.

What sort of people look to an Phoblocht or other republican papers like the Sunday Bus. post or the Daily tripe ? "unthinking people" or "stupid people" or "brainwashed people". Or a mixture of all three?

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

The woman mentions an incident of rape which may or may not have taken place. I never said all IRA members were saints and a member may well ahve been involved in the said incident. A Centra employee in my locality was convicted of rape a few years ago, it doesn't mean I bear a grudge against Centra though.

actually that is not the part of the interview I am referring to, and dont say it was because I transcribed it for you, which part I was referring to

here it is again

Marian Finucane

---

Donna?
McCartney

---

Yes I amthe same
Marian Finucane

---

You were saying something about the "rafia"
McCartney

---

Well they are being referred to as the "rafia" now up north.
Marian Finucane

---

What does that mean
McCartney

---

Well it, well we would say RA iinstead of the IRA, we call it RA, so its RA mafia, Rafia instead of mafia, mafia type of activities, racketeering, drugs, rape, intimidation punishment shootings, and murder.

the above is on top of the incident you are referring to, but the above is what I would like your comment on.