Getting rid of ciminals in the IRA - sure fire plan. Decriminalise.

seedot

How about if this was accepted but the IRA was no longer a proscribed organisation in exchange for acceptance of justice system and definitions of criminality, along with legitimacy of Irish Army as the army of the republic.

I'm not proposing making bombing, or firearms, or punishment beatings or any of that stuff legal. Just membership of the IRA.

sovtek

Xterminator wrote:

Does that explain why the discussion might be heated, and seem to focus more on the IRA?

X

That's a fair point.
As with any resistance movement (or terrorist org..whatever your term) they have basically been trained to do one thing.
The armed wing of the ANC here now often are armed gangs that attacked farmers as well as gun down "armoured" transport.
It seems to me that someone needs to give them a job doing something other than what they've trained for (possibly) their entire lives.

Zombrex

Necromancer wrote:

The PIRA was set up because the state of NI was unwilling to deal with loyalist mobs.

The only people who actually believe this are the die hard 'RA supporters, who ironically, should be the people who know more than anyone that that is simply not true.

Zombrex

seedot wrote:

How about if this was accepted but the IRA was no longer a proscribed organisation in exchange for acceptance of justice system and definitions of criminality, along with legitimacy of Irish Army as the army of the republic.

I'm not proposing making bombing, or firearms, or punishment beatings or any of that stuff legal. Just membership of the IRA.

If you say that the IRA had to accept they had no power or mandate to represent the people of Ireland (which they don't), then there would be no point for the IRA to exist. If they still did exist, then the only reason for there existant would be to commit crimes against the state of Ireland and the UK. Therefore being a member of the IRA means you are in a group that's only purpose is criminal.

Decriminalising the IRA is pointless, and illogical because the only reason for the IRA to exist is criminality

the_syco

Xterminator wrote:

You just dont get it do you?
That's for the state to deal with. E.G. Police force, courts etc

You dont form a milita if there a problem, you use the exisiting mechanisims in the state. PS they work better if you co-operate with them too.

X

Oh, you mean like how well the English goverment worked with the loylists over the years.

BuffyBot wrote:

Seems they've got a bit further with this investigation, doesn't it. Perhaps because people co-operated with them..

Yes, I saw the bit where the Red hand Defenders admitted that they killed him. The IRA also admit to this sort of thing as well, from time to time. But if your trying to somehow relate this to the incident whereby no-one has come forward about the murder of the the dude that everyone says was killed by the IRA... they didn't admit to killing him.
Thats the thing. When one party admit to the killing, witnesses come forward quicker. Just a simple observation.

=-=

I, personally, hope that SF never get into power. Not only do they think that the mafia should be all forgiven, turned into an members club they also think that all companies should pay 40% tax (ensuring the Celtic Tiger is well and truely dead), but you have to wonder; WTF WOULD THEY DO WITH THEIR ARMY, THE ACTUAL IRISH ARMY, AND THE NORTH??? I'd say they'd "liberate" it.

Oh, and we'd become part of George's "axis of evil". State sponsored terrorism, and no doubt the FARC would then come over on "sight seeing" missions... :mad:

ishmael whale

gurramok wrote:

Just seen on RTE that loyalist terror group has claimed responsibility for a murder.
loyalist murder
Will there be huge political pressure to bring these murderers to justice ?

Probably not, but then I’m not aware of any significant unionist political party having a problem with people co-operating with police. But that’s not really the point.

The point is are you saying that we have to aim at the lowest common denominator. If loyalist paramilitaries are scumbags, does that mean its unreasonable to expect republicans to be more than scumbags?

FTA69

Wicknight wrote:

The only people who actually believe this are the die hard 'RA supporters, who ironically, should be the people who know more than anyone that that is simply not true.

Not really wicknight, it is commonly accepted by most that the reason for the rapid regrowth of the IRA was Loyalist pogroms and the Unionist state's (and later the British Army's) repression of the civil rights campaign. The fact that the B Specials and RUC also actively engaged in these pogroms also served to alienate people from the state and as such support the IRA. Out of curiosity wicknight, what is your analysis of the reasons why people supported the IRA, was it a mass "criminal" mentality?

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

The fact that the B Specials and RUC also actively engaged in these pogroms also served to alienate people from the state and as such support the IRA.

That's a terrible lie.

Do you have any evidence for this?

FTA69

It is a commonly accepted fact that the police in all their guises both on and off duty attacked Civil Rights demonstrators, examples being Burntollet Bridge where with the tacit support of on-duty police Loyalist mobs (including off-duty police) attacked the Peoples' Democracy march. We've all seen the film and photo of the RUC clubbing unarmed demonstrators and I'm not about to trawl through the internet to prove to you something you already know well.

If you want a more extreme example of repression of demonstrations have a look at the incident the Irish people call Bloody Sunday.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

It is a commonly accepted fact that the police in all their guises both on and off duty attacked Civil Rights demonstrators, examples being Burntollet Bridge where with the tacit support of on-duty police Loyalist mobs (including off-duty police) attacked the Peoples' Democracy march. We've all seen the film and photo of the RUC clubbing unarmed demonstrators and I'm not about to trawl through the internet to prove to you something you already know well.

If you want a more extreme example of repression of demonstrations have a look at the incident the Irish people call Bloody Sunday.

maybe we should go after the danes for what the vikings done.

what has irish history (well a version of it anyway) got to do with the racketeering, rape gangs, robberies, mruder, being carried out by the membership of the IRA.

The IRA has outlived its usefulness the same way the old IRA turned to criminality after it outlived its usefulness and required stamping out by de valera in the 1940s.

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

It is a commonly accepted fact that the police in all their guises both on and off duty attacked Civil Rights demonstrators, examples being Burntollet Bridge where with the tacit support of on-duty police Loyalist mobs (including off-duty police) attacked the Peoples' Democracy march. We've all seen the film and photo of the RUC clubbing unarmed demonstrators and I'm not about to trawl through the internet to prove to you something you already know well.

If you want a more extreme example of repression of demonstrations have a look at the incident the Irish people call Bloody Sunday.

None of these incidents constitute a pogrom.

Find evidence of ethnic cleansing (what used to be called a pogrom) by British security services.

(I can find plenty by Republicans).

FTA69

maybe we should go after the danes for what the vikings done.

The difference between the Brits and the Vikings being the Brits are still here and the police are still oppressing people.

rape gangs

What in the name of Jesus are you on about billy? You're crossing the line now boy.

The IRA has outlived its usefulness the same way the old IRA turned to criminality after it outlived its usefulness and required stamping out by de valera in the 1940s.

De Valera interned them in the Curragh because their bombing campaign in England undermined his neutrality, not because of "criminality". The fact remains billy, that your only definition of criminality also extends to those in 1920 and 1916.

None of these incidents constitute a pogrom.

No, but the systematic burning out and eviction of Catholics from areas in Belfast does eg Bombay St.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

What in the name of Jesus are you on about billy? You're crossing the line now boy.
.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2419279&postcount=291

post links to marian finucane show you will need realplayer to hear it

shuttle forward to 30 minutes into the interview with the sisters of robert mccartney where ira and rape are mentioned in the same sentence

as you can understand they are in a better position to know what is going on in the north than the armchair terrorists you have been listening to in waterford.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

No, but the systematic burning out and eviction of Catholics from areas in Belfast does eg Bombay St.

The difference, FTA69, is that happened in 1969, it was criminal, it was wrong, but it was 35 years ago, what the McCartney family are talking about, is happening in the here and now, and is being done to the community by their own, not by Loyalists.
Your constant equating with the men and women of 1916 and 1920, is beginning to grate, they had honour and courage, they fought the good fight and when it was over, the did not resort to criminal activity, intimidation and murder.

jbkenn
p.s. FYI the B Special rabble were abolished in 1970.

Victor

sovtek wrote:

It seems to me that someone needs to give them a job doing something other than what they've trained for (possibly) their entire lives.

You mean like the proper community watch systems being sponsored by both governments where guys go around at night with torches and radios rather than balaclavas and baseball bats?

FTA69

shuttle forward to 30 minutes into the interview with the sisters of robert mccartney where ira and rape are mentioned in the same sentence

She mentioned that there were stories of an IRA member being involved in a sexual assault in the area, she never said anything about "rape gangs", which conjures up images of Rwanda or Somalia.

as you can understand they are in a better position to know what is going on in the north than the armchair terrorists you have been listening to in waterford.

Armchair? What political activism do you engage in billy out of curiosity? The only experience you are relying on is a statement you heard on the radio which you managed to misconstrue. I also happen to know Republicans from the Short Strand and the Markets, I've also been there myself and contrary to your deepest wishes the people there are not revolting against the Republican Movement as has been spouted by the gutter media. The area records one of the highest Sinn Féin vote and has a long history of being defended by the IRA from both British, police and Loyalist incursions.

FTA69

The difference, FTA69, is that happened in 1969, it was criminal, it was wrong, but it was 35 years ago,

My references to 1969 had nothing to do with the McCartney family but pogón's ridiculous assertions that Loyalists and the police never engaged in pogroms against Nationalists. It was a seperate issue.

Your constant equating with the men and women of 1916 and 1920, is beginning to grate

It's a fair point considering these men were denigrated as "terrorists" and "criminals" back then as well for challenging imperialism. We see Bobby Sands dismissed as a fanatical fool by many here but yet Terence McSwiney is held up as a hero. That is the inconsistancy and hypocrisy I am trying to outline and put into perspective.

p.s. FYI the B Special rabble were abolished in 1970.

To be replaced by the sectarian colluders of the UDR.

A Dub in Glasgo

Poster from the '80s

mUrDeR

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

My references to 1969 had nothing to do with the McCartney family but pogón's ridiculous assertions that Loyalists and the police never engaged in pogroms against Nationalists. It was a seperate issue.

FYI pogrom

pogrom NOUN An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.

It's a fair point considering these men were denigrated as "terrorists" and "criminals" back then as well for challenging imperialism. We see Bobby Sands dismissed as a fanatical fool by many here but yet Terence McSwiney is held up as a hero. That is the inconsistancy and hypocrisy I am trying to outline and put into perspective.

I was wondering how you would work Bobby "No thanks, I think I'll skip lunch today" Sands, into the arguement, you also forgot to mention his T-Shirts are available for sale at all good Sinn Fein shops for only $15. Not just a hero, but merchandisable as well

To be replaced by the sectarian colluders of the UDR.

Abolished in 1992

jbkenn

FTA69

FYI pogrom

Yes and the mass evicting of Catholics with the tacit support of the police cannot be construed as a pogrom.

I was wondering how you would work Bobby "No thanks, I think I'll skip lunch today" Sands

That's exactly the petty sniping I mean, you still haven't addressed my point jbkenn. Terence McSwiney died on hunger strike in Brixton Prison, is he to be the butt of your bad jokes next?

Abolished in 1992

To be replaced with the sectarian colluders of the RIR.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/602086.stm

A Dub in Glasgo

jbkenn wrote:

Bobby "No thanks, I think I'll skip lunch today" Sands,

You know, that is probably the most childish and immature thing posted here. Are you sure you are even aged over 13?

What is next? Terence 'I have lasted 74 days without breakfast, lunch and dinner!' MacSwiney? Childish stuff.

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

Yes and the mass evicting of Catholics with the tacit support of the police cannot be construed as a pogrom.

Do us all a favour, check out your facts

That's exactly the petty sniping I mean, you still haven't addressed my point jbkenn. Terence McSwiney died on hunger strike in Brixton Prison, is he to be the butt of your bad jokes next?

Why dont Sinn Fein sell his T-Shirts so?, by the way without looking them up can you name the rest of the hunger strikers who died?, and, are they not deserving of being immortalised on T-Shirts as well?.

To be replaced with the sectarian colluders of the RIR.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/602086.stm

can't get the link to work, and, bowing to your expertise on all things, I will take your word for it.

jbkenn

FTA69

Do us all a favour, check out your facts

So you are saying the RUC and B Specials didn't stand by in places like Bombay St while dozens of families had their houses torched?

Why dont Sinn Fein sell his T-Shirts so?, by the way without looking them up can you name the rest of the hunger strikers who died?, and, are they not deserving of being immortalised on T-Shirts as well?.

Sinn Féin have extensive memorabilia regarding that phase in our conflict, McSwiney features on many items along with other Irish hunger strikers such as Michael Gaughan and Frank Stagg. Can I name the other 9 H-Block martyrs? Easily. Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O'Hara (INLA), Joe McDonnell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch (INLA), Kieran Doherty, Thomas McElwee, Mickey Devine (INLA). Items featuring all of these as well as other Irish hunger strikers can be purchased, the reason Bobby Sands usually predominates such items is because he was the first and most prominent striker to die.

can't get the link to work, and, bowing to your expertise on all things, I will take your word for it.

Shame, it works perfectly for me. For your information it shows about 50 RIR soldiers posing with an Orange Order pendant saying "Spirit of Drumcree".

A Dub in Glasgo

For jbkenn

Thursday, 13 January, 2000, 14:19 GMT
Row over soldiers in Drumcree photo

Front page news: How the paper displayed the photograph


A row has erupted over the publication of a photograph showing soldiers allegedly supporting the Protestant Orange Order over their Drumcree protest.

The picture in this week's edition of the Andersonstown News, a weekly paper in nationalist west Belfast, shows around 70 uniformed Royal Irish Regiment members with what appears to be an Orange Order banner.

Orangemen have staged a long running campaign in a bid to reverse a decision preventing them marching down Portadown's Garvaghy Road in July 1998 and 1999.

The soldiers' picture appears beneath a bold headline in the paper which reads Royal Irish Bigotry.

The soldiers, whose regiment was formerly known as the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) are holding a banner which appears to read: "Drumcree: Here we stand, we can do no other. For religious and civil liberty."

Four photographs

Editor of the Andersonstown News Robin Livingstone said the paper had received four photographs and negatives anonymously in the post from a "regiment source" along with a cover note.

Robin Livingstone: 'Pictures genuine'
"We got the pictures and we were happy to print them, because we think it confirms everything we have been saying about the RIR and indeed the UDR for many years."

He said the photographs "which were very obviously posed" had not been tampered with by the newspaper and he was convinced they were "legitimate".

"The negatives are now with our solicitors and we have the prints which we will let anyone have access to. It has not been touched at all."

Sinn Fein assembly member Dara O'Hagan called for the abolition of the regiment and said the photograph "sums up everything in relation to the RIR".

Recruitment drive

She said the Ministry of Defence was spending vast amounts of money on a recruitment drive ostensibly aimed at Catholics.

"It will surprise few nationalists that nothing has changed with this sectarian force.

"Few will have difficulty accepting that to a person the membership of the RIR is pro-Orange Order, pro the siege of the Garvaghy Road, anti civil liberty and most definitely anti-Catholic."

Breandan MacCionnaith: Informing governments
This feeling was echoed by Breandan MacCionnaith of the nationalist Garvaghy Road Residents' Coalition, who are opposed to the Orange march.

He is to present copies of the picture to the British and Irish governments and raise the matter with Secretary of State Peter Mandelson.

"This is a pro-Orange, sectarian display by members of the RIR," he said.

"I don't think there's any doubt that a group of 50 or 60 armed men in full combat gear with British Army issue rifles, clearly inside a military installation, could be anything but genuine."

He claimed the RIR and the UDR over a number of years, particularly in certain areas had a "whole history of sectarianism".

The paper also claims to have other negatives and pictures which it has not published.

Army statement

In a statement the army said they would make no comment on the matter until it is confirmed that the photograph is genuine.



It added: "We expect the highest standard of conduct from all soldiers and if the photograph proves genuine it will be rigorously investigated. If it proved to be so "the circumstances in which it was taken will be rigorously investigated.

"We would point out that photographs can be taken in all sorts of circumstances which can subsequently be misinterpreted. For instance, soldiers from all nations have been pictured with captured emblems.

"We can confirm that the RIR welcomes recruits from across the entire community and indeed from north and south of the border.

"The regiment has not, as the article suggests, changed its policy. It has always welcomed recruits from across the entire community."

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

She mentioned that there were stories of an IRA member being involved in a sexual assault in the area, she never said anything about "rape gangs", which conjures up images of Rwanda or Somalia.

Time index 47:mins 15 Seconds

Marian Finucane

---

You were saying there that there was a kind of macho egotisttical "I'll use my power because I have it" mentality in the north among the IRA at the moment. Do you get the sense that there are other crimes being committed and that people figure that they are imune from being pursued by the law?
McCartney

---

Absoloutly Oh yes
Marian Finucane

---

Like What
McCartney

---

Well I mean, if the ultimate is murder, I would imagine there has been ...i mean I dont think these men turned into psychopaths on the 30th of january. or turned into criminals on 30th of january.

Time index 51 Minutes 40 Seconds

Marion Finucane

---

There's been a fierce amount of conversation and argument and debate and rows and whatever have you in recent times about criminality and the IRA in the north and it came to afore obviously with the big bank robbery, which are as most people are concerned is not half as important as a mans life, but nonetheless, it gave rise to all of this discussion. Do you have a sense that the IRA is turning into a kind of mafia in the north, or do you have any feeling for that , or evidence of that or what is the view north of the border on that?
McCartney

---

Well Roberts death, his murder seems to have highlighted that there is, and i hate to use the word criminality because it seems to be being over-used at the minute, but with his death seems to have highlighted that this is a serious problem at the moment....

---

Marian Finucane

---

Donna?
McCartney

---

Yes I amthe same
Marian Finucane

---

You were saying something about the "rafia"
McCartney

---

Well they are being referred to as the "rafia" now up north.
Marian Finucane

---

What does that mean
McCartney

---

Well it, well we would say RA iinstead of the IRA, we call it RA, so its RA mafia, Rafia instead of mafia, mafia type of activities, racketeering, drugs, rape, intimidation punishment shootings, and murder.

take another listen to the program FTA69.

Armchair?

Yeah armchair,

What political activism do you engage in billy out of curiosity?

I tend to vote for independent candidates in elections.

The only experience you are relying on is a statement you heard on the radio which you managed to misconstrue. I also happen to know Republicans from the Short Strand and the Markets, I've also been there myself and contrary to your deepest wishes the people there are not revolting against the Republican Movement

actually its not the only experience i have had with republicanism just the latest. a little click click boom boom will put down any "revolt" against the "rafia" no doubt, should the need arise.

The area records one of the highest Sinn Féin vote and has a long history of being defended by the IRA from both British, police and Loyalist incursions.

20 percent drop in the satisfaction rating for gerry adams, if you believe the corntrary then that is up to your self.

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You know, that is probably the most childish and immature thing posted here. Are you sure you are even aged over 13?

What is next? Terence 'I have lasted 74 days without breakfast, lunch and dinner!' MacSwiney? Childish stuff.

I am sure you do, I dont share Sinn Fein's reverence for the hunger strikers, or, for that matter, anyone else with a death wish for Ireland, I am more in favour of living for, and in Ireland, working for reconciliation and the betterment of society.

jbkenn

jbkenn

FTA69 wrote:

So you are saying the RUC and B Specials didn't stand by in places like Bombay St while dozens of families had their houses torched?

You are the one saying they stood by, check your facts.

Sinn Féin have extensive memorabilia regarding that phase in our conflict, McSwiney features on many items along with other Irish hunger strikers such as Michael Gaughan and Frank Stagg. Can I name the other 9 H-Block martyrs? Easily. Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh, Patsy O'Hara (INLA), Joe McDonnell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch (INLA), Kieran Doherty, Thomas McElwee, Mickey Devine (INLA). Items featuring all of these as well as other Irish hunger strikers can be purchased, the reason Bobby Sands usually predominates such items is because he was the first and most prominent striker to die.

Martyrs?, the reality is Bobby Sands, is just another piece of fundraising merchandise, if Sinn Fein had any respect for him they would'nt be selling his "memorabilia", the rest are just forgotten.

Shame, it works perfectly for me. For your information it shows about 50 RIR soldiers posing with an Orange Order pendant saying "Spirit of Drumcree".

A Dub in Glasgo has posted the content, I will respond to it.

jbkenn

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

For jbkenn

Have you read the article?

The picture in this week's edition of the Andersonstown News, a weekly paper in nationalist west Belfast, shows around 70 uniformed Royal Irish Regiment members with what appears to be an Orange Order banner.

I am not denying it could be.

The soldiers, whose regiment was formerly known as the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) are holding a banner which appears to read: "Drumcree: Here we stand, we can do no other. For religious and civil liberty."

The UDR is one of a number of Regiments amalgamated to form the RIR

Robin Livingstone: 'Pictures genuine'
"We got the pictures and we were happy to print them, because we think it confirms everything we have been saying about the RIR and indeed the UDR for many years."

"Few will have difficulty accepting that to a person the membership of the RIR is pro-Orange Order, pro the siege of the Garvaghy Road, anti civil liberty and most definitely anti-Catholic."

I have no doubt that there are members of the RIR who are dyed in the wool Loyalists, but, I have no doubt there are many who are not

It added: "We expect the highest standard of conduct from all soldiers and if the photograph proves genuine it will be rigorously investigated. If it proved to be so "the circumstances in which it was taken will be rigorously investigated.

"We would point out that photographs can be taken in all sorts of circumstances which can subsequently be misinterpreted. For instance, soldiers from all nations have been pictured with captured emblems.

"We can confirm that the RIR welcomes recruits from across the entire community and indeed from north and south of the border.

"The regiment has not, as the article suggests, changed its policy. It has always welcomed recruits from across the entire community."

Has there been any follow up on this by Sinn Fein?, the Irish and British Governments?, the BA? and if not, why not?

jbkenn

A Dub in Glasgo

jbkenn wrote:

Have you read the article?

Yes

I posted it here because you appeared to have a problem opening a standard link on the BBC website.

true

Photos can be easily doctored. If the IRA have access to stolen Gardai and RUC uniforms, which they have used to impersonate on occassion, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that this photo is forged in order to discredit the RIR.