Was Dunphy right about Ferguson's tactics?

Hairy Homer

Sorry for starting a new thread on this but the main one on Utd-Milan is just too huge.

I only saw the second half and even then I was on the phone for most of it so not really concentrating. I heard the half-time panel discussion on RTE and the comments afterwards and would be interested to know what people thought of Dunphy's contention that Ferguson had screwed up tactically.

He seemed to be saying that Ferguson was needlessly mollycoddling Roy Keane by playing too many people in midfield to bolster what he (Ferguson) considers to be Keane's waning powers. Dunphy insists Keane is as fit and capable as ever. He also thought that Ferguson was playing Rooney out of position as a leader of the line centre-forward.

Whereas Liam Brady seemed to think the tactics were fine, just that the players like Giggs and Christiano Ronaldo had not delivered.

Love to know what people think.

therecklessone

A combination ot the two. Once it was clear that Giggs and Ronaldo weren't cutting the mustard he should have changed things. Rooney on his own up front was a bad move, against two wily defenders schooled in Italian football he was always gonna have it tough.

Utd surrendered too much space to Milan, who TBH looked like the home side when it came to possession.

Too many ManYoo players were below par for that formation to work.

PHB

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2417319&postcount=81

One thing I was fuming with was his substitution of Ronaldo for Van Nist.
He should have kept the shape with two wingers and a forward, not two forwards and a winger, which looses lots of shape.

Iago

I hate agreeing with Dunphy but he was right, as for Brady I stopped listening to anything he had to say when he fell under the influence of Wenger, he's so completely blind now he's not worth paying attention to.

jobonar

i dont think ronaldo should have been taken off! he wasnt on top form but he has the ability and the unpredicability to change a game with one trick!

as for the 4-5-1 thing. i think its effective only when ronaldo and giggs are playing well. its 4-5-1 in defence but its 4-3-3 in attack cos of the pace and skills of the 2 wingmen that they get up and support rooney/van nist so fast that thats the way that formation pans out! think it'll be a more standard 4-4-2 for the second leg wit rooney/van nist up top!

i do agree that they had too many men in midfield. i thought quinton fortune had a very good game but i believe keano still has wat it takes to boss the midfield! but out of the 3 CM's of keano scholes and fortune, who gets dropped?? i know the obvious is fortune but it'd unfair looking at his recent form!

as for carroll, rip up the contract they are offering him and send him on his merry way!

my 0.02c...

Draupnir

poor old Liam is very biased these days, and i get the feeling he hates Dunphy so they probably argue over the colour of the pens RTE give them.

as regards the tactics, i thought united had it pretty much near enough to correct except i would have had giggs off after 30 minutes and brought either Louis or Ruud on and thrown Fortune out on the left.

i thought rui costa had a bit too much space for a lot of the game though, and he ran the show completely, so we might se Phil Neville play in Milan to boot him a bit.

thejollyrodger

its all opinion with Liam and Dunphy, the two of them are probably just trying to wind each other up.

I think the tatics were all wrong though. I didnt think I would see 5 in the middle (its ok for Shelbourne who are trying to keep things tight) but no for Man Utd at home no matter who they are playing.

Ronaldo has all the tricks and looks great but at the end of the day he is only as good as what he produces and he produced very little quality crosses into the box.

United need to go and buy a quality goalkeeper like Given or Van de Sar. Anyone except that muppet Carroll and Howard/pycho

cruiserweight

I seem to be in the minority here in that I agree with Liam Brady. Utd with 5 in midfield were up against 5 Milan midfielders and were simply given a lesson in control, passing and ball retention. Had there only been 4 Utd midfielders with 2 up front there would have been one less body for Milan to have to pass through in midfield, end result more possession and more chances for Milan. I think the flaws were in the personnel and not the system, even a slight variation of maybe 4-4-1-1 would have been better than 4-4-2. The result probably would not have changed Milan love 1-0 scores.

At the end it seemed like Fergie did not know what to do and just threw on two strikers. Milan just brought on a fresh defender and a defensive midfielder for an attacking one and sat there and said break us down if you can.

Ardent

Draupnir wrote:

poor old Liam is very biased these days, and i get the feeling he hates Dunphy so they probably argue over the colour of the pens RTE give them.

Absolutely, I got the impression last night that Brady was merely trying to wind Dunphy up. And he does it so well!

I agree with Dunphy to an extent - the tactics were wrong. I hate seeing managers trying to change their team to counter the strengths of the opposition team, particularly when they are at home. Ferguson, should have gone 4-4-2 or something, with Rooney playing off Saha or Smith, and let the Italians worry about coping with United's game.

I also agree with the point that Brady was trying to get at - Man United can whip the crap teams in the Premiership week in and week out but when it comes to competing against the best teams across Europe, the likes of Ronaldo, Giggs (past it), Fortune, Brown, Kleberson, the Neville sisters etc are just not good enough.

jank

I hate agreeing with Dunphy but he was right, as for Brady I stopped listening to anything he had to say when he fell under the influence of Wenger, he's so completely blind now he's not worth paying attention to

Dunphy is wrong but will never admit it. Liam Brady has been invloved in the game for more years then most of us have hot dinners. IMO he is the best pundit RTE have.

It actually all makes sense if you think about it. The 5 man midfield helping giving keane that extra space and time coenciding with his amazing increase in form.

The tactics had a small part to play alright but Utd just didnt have the quality about them and that is the reason they lost.

Sure didnt they play fourth place Everton off the park on saturday using the exact same team and tactics!!!

I think that says it all. People shouldnt take Dunphys words as Gospel

LegacyUser

Dunphy is the best RTE have in my opinion but Brady can be just as good. They both compliment each other if you ask me.

eirebhoy

cheesedude wrote:

Dunphy is the best RTE have in my opinion but Brady can be just as good. They both compliment each other if you ask me.

Its years since I listened to Dunpy on RTE tbh. can't stand RTE's team.

rubberduckey

Eirebhoy, respect your opinions quite a lot however I actually appreciate RTE's panel far more than any other station.

I find analysis on rival stations anaemic in comparison- (Lineker,Schmeichal,Lawrenson,Bonner--just dumb-down merchants really)

Last night I think Brady/Dunphy were spoiling for a fight with each other as much as discussing the relative merits of Uniteds formation.

I felt Giles commentating on the actual game, was able to read the 'mood' of the match amazingly well. He was spot on in his analysis of how comfortable Mila were in the second half, if ancelotti had more of a gamblers instinct Milan may have beaten Uniten 2 or 3 nil.

P.S. I'm a worried United fan off to the second leg in a fortnight!!

MisterAnarchy

Brady is the best pundit on tv by a long way.
He has a very good record at predicting results.
Dunphy seems to change his mind every 6 months.
Two years ago he said 'Milan were a great team' now he fancies a lethargic predictable Man U team.
I am a Man U fan but they havent a hope of winning the Champions league this year.
The 4-5-1 formation is killing the team.
Playing Rooney up front on his own is a waste of time.
Keane and Scholes are too old and dont get forward enough.
The present team are a shadow of the 99 team .
They have struggled all season in the Premiershoip to beat atrocious opposition .
5 years ago they were hammering bottom of the table teams 5 and 6 nil.
Now they struggle against these sides.
The flair ,width and pace is gone.
They were given a football lesson by Milan last night.
They should have played 442 and pressed Milan back but alas they arent good enough to do that.
I get very little joy out of watching Utd play these days,they are so predictable and one dimensional.
One thing is for sure ,English teams and the Premiership has been shown up for what it is.
A very poor standard of football where maintaining possession of the ball in Europe is beyond the teams.

eirebhoy

Bias and pessimism basically sums up the RTE panel. Trevor Steven is good though, despite playing for the other team in Glasgow.

The Muppet

padshea2 wrote:

Eirebhoy, respect your opinions quite a lot however I actually appreciate RTE's panel far more than any other station.

I find analysis on rival stations anaemic in comparison- (Lineker,Schmeichal,Lawrenson,Bonner--just dumb-down merchants really)

Last night I think Brady/Dunphy were spoiling for a fight with each other as much as discussing the relative merits of Uniteds formation.

I felt Giles commentating on the actual game, was able to read the 'mood' of the match amazingly well. He was spot on in his analysis of how comfortable Mila were in the second half, if ancelotti had more of a gamblers instinct Milan may have beaten Uniten 2 or 3 nil.

P.S. I'm a worried United fan off to the second leg in a fortnight!!

I agree Dunphy says it as he sees it. sometimes he goes a bit OTT but he is an honest pundit. Giles is good too. The bit of RTE's coverage I don't like is their commentator George Hamilton. He could write what he knows about soccer on the back of a postage stamp . yet listening to him you'd think he had played at the highest level .

I thought his comment about Roy Carroll last night were biased and very unfair to Carroll. He called him calamity Carroll and then went on to say he had made similar mistakes which cost united dearly game after game which is clearly not true. I don't believe Carroll is good enought to be NO 1 at united but he has conceded very few goals this season.

IMO Hamilton showed a lack of professionalism by going way over the top with his comments .

MisterAnarchy

Yes Hamiltons comments on Carroll were nasty.
He gets too personal.
He said it was another mistake in a disastrous season for the Northern Ireland keeper.
Hardly a disastrous season .
Hamilton is Northern Irish himself.

Big Ears

MisterAnarchy wrote:

Brady is the best pundit on tv by a long way.
He has a very good record at predicting results.

I agree completly , the mans got a boring voice but by God he knows his stuff .

KdjaCL

I think Af got it spot on, a lot of PL fans seem to have expected utd to beat AC MILAN!!!! Utd played very well and tacically they were spot on, on the night. 1st half was very open neither coach would ahve been happy with that hence the 2nd being a lot tighter which imo was the best football being played by the best footballers.

But Milan playing Kaka and Rui Costa did invariably create more problems than Utd would have expected but they coped very well considering it was AC Milan and for 78 minutes it was scoreless with Utd having chances as well.


Great game between 2 of the best on form European teams atm shame it wasnt 0-0 going into 2nd leg it was what was deserved from a superb game. 0-0 next leg would have set up another highly entertaining game.

/me is a happy bunny with the quality of football in this years CL.


kdjac

Jivin Turkey

I thought Dunphy just did his usual "look at me I have the benefit of hindsight" analysis. Total crap.

Milan dominated for long periods, but they didnt get any chances. United had the best ones by far. Having said that if you give a team of that class that much of the ball you are taking a risk.

It was extremely unfortunate that it didnt come off though. If I were a United fan I would be very confident going into the second leg at 0-0. Even 0-1 isnt that bad. Dunphy just likes to be controversial.

smemon

agree with both to an extent. as someone said, it's so easy in hindsight and ferguson wanted to flood the midfield in order to safeguard the defence but also to keep possesion.

utd have played those tactics and played superbly, perhaps last night was just a bad day at the office. i personally would play with 2 up front. i agree with dumphy roy doesnt need protection and he's playing out of his skin this season anyway.

however i completely disagree with the ronaldo being a waster type comments. both brady and dumphy agreed he was. ronaldo is a crucial part of utd, imo their most influencial player attacking wise. he doesnt rely on confidence like giggs does and will simply keep trying and trying even if he keeps getting blocked off. rooney had an awful game last night, couldnt hold onto the ball. he's wasted on the left or in midfield though. he's a striker. play him there.

imo, utd's best 11 and the team to play milan away should be:

howard, heinze, g.neville, silvestre, ferdinand, giggs, ronaldo, scholes, keane, saha, van nistelrooy.

leave out rooney with the option to take himself and smith on. 5 in midfield IS the way to go about it in europe but not now.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

howard, heinze, g.neville, silvestre, ferdinand, giggs, ronaldo, scholes, keane, saha, van nistelrooy.

What happens if Nistelrooy , Saha , Ronaldo , Giggs , Scholes all bomb forward at once (it is the natural part of their game , even if they have instructions not to).

That leaves : a dodgy keeper , a great defender but will probably give away many frees , an unconfident centre back , a ball watcher and another great player who wouldn't have the pace to stick with quite a few Milan players .

People want United to go out and attack , but if they do it will almost guarentee an early goal on the counter from Milan .

I know it sounds negative , but they have to keep it tight and hope the chances come .

kano476

smemon wrote:

imo, utd's best 11 and the team to play milan away should be:

howard, heinze, g.neville, silvestre, ferdinand, giggs, ronaldo, scholes, keane, saha, van nistelrooy.

leave out rooney with the option to take himself and smith on. 5 in midfield IS the way to go about it in europe but not now.

I agree with that but, despite Carrolls c*ck ups I don't think Howard is a better keeper. he's not as brave when going for the ball as Carroll and Carroll made a couple of great saves last night.

Scholes is getting worse by the game imo. Maybe its fatigue as he has been playing alot lately but his passing and control of late are pretty bad.

jobonar

yea AF has nothin to lose puttine Howard back into the starting 11, i think its a good idea. but Silvestre is a liability in the defence now and the centre halfs should be Rio and Brown. Brown has been confident and steady over the last 3 games while Silvestre has been out!

Silvastre has got the confidence to start in Milan!

rubberduckey

What i think will be interesting in the second leg will be Milans formation. I'm of the opinion that Berlusconi may bend Ancelottis ear into playing a 2 man strike force at home. I feel United will have a better chance of competing with a Milan side with Tomasson-Crespo up front.

PHB

I agree, I think its time for Slyvestre to move on, he's done good for the club but he is prone to **** ups, somethign we can't handle if we're trying to counteract a bad goalie.
Bring on the rio and brown partnership!

SteM

jobonar wrote:

yea AF has nothin to lose puttine Howard back into the starting 11, i think its a good idea

He has nothing to loose apart from shattering whatever confidence Carroll has left.

The Muppet

PHB wrote:

Bring on the rio and brown partnership!

I,m not sure Brown is the answer he is just as prone to mistakes as Sylvestre. Brown and Sylvestre are fine for the premiership but can be found lacking at the
higher level of teh Champions league.

vorbis

Shevchenko will probably be back for the second leg.

padshea2 wrote:

What i think will be interesting in the second leg will be Milans formation. I'm of the opinion that Berlusconi may bend Ancelottis ear into playing a 2 man strike force at home. I feel United will have a better chance of competing with a Milan side with Tomasson-Crespo up front.

LegacyUser

I think the money they get each week can make up for their blips of confidence...

But putting Howard in goal is not the answer...We need to get a top quality goalkeeper.

SteM

cheesedude wrote:

I think the money they get each week can make up for their blips of confidence...

But putting Howard in goal is not the answer...We need to get a top quality goalkeeper.

I don't agree with your first comment, I do agree with your second one though. From the Premiership, I think Given or Robinson should be bought in the summer.

For now we have to make do with what we have though and I think dropping Carroll and bringing in Howard would be a mistake, it's not like Howard's got a safe pair of hands atm.

The Rooster

Silvestre was awful when he came on v Milan, but I think it'd be very harsh to judge him on that. I thought it was actually very unfair on him to bring him on as centre half, in such circumstances, given he's been out of action for a few weeks. Not sure what Ferguson was thinking - albeit Neville had a poor game (for some reason he seems to struggle against top Euro sides, maybe because he gets too much time on the ball!). Probably would have been better to put Heinze at CB and Silvestre on the left - would have allowed him to stretch his legs and he might have been able to get into the game

PHB

thing about Caroll and Howad is, Howard could be one of the greats, Caroll won't be. If you put in Howard now, you have to never play caroll again, and you also have to stick with Howard until the end.
I think caroll has been solidish in the premiership against the weaker teams, and we can't slip up at all

Fergies got a tough choice.