Turning from Stationary(Neutral)

cormie

Hi,
What do you folks find is the best way to turn from being stationary, handbreak on and in neutral.

The thing is, you're not supposed to change gear whilst turning so do you tend to make the full turn in 1st gear reving the engine and once the turn is complete switch to second or do you go 1st and then second before making the turn meaning you wont get off as fast. I was told my instructor to complete a turn as fast as possible. But when doing it in 1st gear it seems to rev wayyy to much!
Thanks.

Seth Brundle

Im not sure I fully understand this.
1. you mention "reving the engine" - if you are just turning there is no need to be over-revving
2. to turn from standstill (e.g. do a 3 point turn) then slowly move off and turn simultaneously, reverse back (with opposite lock) and then pull away as normal.
3. There should be no need for a upward gearchange when doing a 180 turn or a u turn. Furthermore, changing gear whilst turning means that one hand comes off the wheel.
4. Presumably your instructor told you to do it as fast as possible because you don't want to be blocking a road for twenty minutes. However, this does not mean you have to use excessive speed for the manouvre as this can result in having to take more time completing the manouvre.
5. When you say " the turn is complete switch to second" - this depends on the speed you are currently at - many times you may be going too slow for a decent pick up in 2nd so you gradually build up your speed in 1st and then change up.
It does come with experience but bsically you should take your time (this will improve [hopefully!] with experience) and also you never ever need to over rev your engine. Over revving just makes more noise, reduces your car control and also will probably piss a driving tester off!

jayok

Ideally you should complete the turn in 1st gear. On advanced driving courses they will teach you to be in the correct gear to complete any turn and you should never change gear mid turn. It's all about keeping the power/weight of the car balanced in any manouver. Revving the engine doesn't harm the machine, your safety is more important and not changing gear ensures both hands are on the wheel for the turn.

Of course this assume a 90 degree bend - different angle bends will require different approaches. But general rule of thumbs is to stay in the gear until the turning movement has been completed and the straight line balance is returned to the car.

cormie

Just to clarify, I mean when turning at traffic lights, going right for example with oncoming traffic approaching you need to make the turn quickly and safely. So you will be in the middle lane for turning right (indicator on and all) and when there is an adequate gap you go to first, foot on pedal, handbreak down and turn, the engine will rev as it would when you would usually go to second if not turning, but because you're turning you're not supposed to change gear, so do you change to second before or after the turn?

Interceptor

I steer with the palm of my right hand, feeding the clutch in with a 'snap' until the tyres break traction and I cross the junction with my tyres smoking and the rev counter in the red, upshifting without lifting off the accelerator (like my hero Gilles Villeneuve) and dissappearing over the horizon.

'c

jayok

so do you change to second before or after the turn?

If you are first in the queue to go right you should be positioned such that the front of the car is slightly turned into the bend and the front wheels are also slightly facing the bend (a small turn right as you stop). The handbrake is on and the car is in netural. Once you see a gap coming up to go this is your process:

1. Clutch and put the car in first (assuming you've taken it out of first)
2. Left hand on the handbrake
3. Engage the clutch and release the handbrake so there's no point where the car could roll.
4. BOTH hands on the wheel complete the turn full maintain smooth acceleration through the bend (don't floor it or you could get wheel spin - remember BALANCE!!)
5. Once the car has returned to a straight line position go to 2nd and continue acceleration as appropriate.

This process is different if you're in a queue of cars to go right and you've time to accelerate the car to a speed that you can put it into 2nd before you start your turn. For example say there is 5 cars in front of you waiting to go right. Then you get a right-turn filter light you will know that be clearing the junction without having to yield to oncoming traffic you should make 2nd in this instance.

cormie

Hi again,
yes, that is what I would do in such a situation. I have no problem with clutch handbreak ordeal, it's just changing from 1st to 2nd.

An example I'm thinking of is at a set of traffic lights like:



^..............

---

^..............destination
^..............

---

__________
^ !me!
^ !... !
^ !...!


me being in the middle of the lane going forward and the lane going the opp direction, cars approaching in that lane and being stationary at the lights behind the white line, when the lights go I can then turn so it's a long turn and it sounds like the gear needs to be changed during the turn.

jayok

cormie wrote:

An example I'm thinking of is at a set of traffic lights like:

me being in the middle of the lane going forward and the lane going the opp direction, cars approaching in that lane and being stationary at the lights behind the white line, when the lights go I can then turn so it's a long turn and it sounds like the gear needs to be changed during the turn.

Ahhh, ok then I think I see what you are getting at. Well the same rule applies never change gear mid-turn. If you cannot get onto the junction to do a stopped 90 degree turn (as described before) you should stay back enough from the turning point to allow you to build speed to get the car to 2nd before you start the turn again don't floor it. Normally getting a car to 2nd is not a problem 1st is simply used to get the momentum going and then you can put it into 2nd.

This situation normally applies at dual-carriage ways, etc where you're facing the traffic waiting to turn to their right (or your left). You've a good bit of road to go before you could complete the turn as you've to cross two lanes of traffic, etc.

mackerski

http://www.driving-school.com.au/faq.asp

See the section titled: My instructor wants me to change gears on a right-hand turn.

Dermot

jayok

See the section titled: My instructor wants me to change gears on a right-hand turn

Hmmm... I would still question this. When you have only one hand on the steering wheel in any type of turn you do not have complete control of the car. Say for example you were to perform the mid-turn gear change and at the same point hit a patch of ice. While you are not exactly booting it, you've cut power to the drive (disengaged the clutch), have the car off balance, and only one hand on the wheel. Restoring contol would be difficult then.

Personally I don't think I find myself in a position where I've to change gear mid-turn like that. I must actually check the next time I actually perform one of those right-turns. I will also check Roadcraft when I get home also I am fairly sure that it says "no gear change mid turn" no exceptions type of wording. I will post my check!

fletch

I always change from 1st to 2nd mid corner when pulling away from a stop(if I'm first at the junction) If I'm a bit back, I will change to 2nd before the corner.
If you don't change to second, first gear is too slow and will make you look like a learner driver
I know you shouldn't change gear while going around a corner but lets face it, changin from 1st to 2nd gear, you are not travelling fast and are hardly likely to spin out of control

cormie

So it looks like a touchy subject.

How do I know which rule my assessor will follow

My last assessor did say never change while turning so the question is, change into second before or after

cormie

fletch wrote:

I always change from 1st to 2nd mid corner when pulling away from a stop(if I'm first at the junction) If I'm a bit back, I will change to 2nd before the corner.
If you don't change to second, first gear is too slow and will make you look like a learner driver
I know you shouldn't change gear while going around a corner but lets face it, changin from 1st to 2nd gear, you are not travelling fast and are hardly likely to spin out of control

This is what I mean by the engine revving too much. Changing to second means no revving of the engine and you complete the turn faster over all. I am talking about being 1st in the queue, this is when the problem arises.I don't really notice myself doing it but the assessor said it to me anyway the last time.

mackerski

Personally I drive an automatic, so I can't easily test my instinctive behaviour in this case. I always get out of first very quickly. As noted, sometimes this will be before you even turn the wheel. But I'm 99% sure I would never still be in first as I come out of a right turn - that would mean either being painfully slow or racing the engine something dreadful. I've always felt very secure and natural about doing it that way - in all my years of turning right, I've never encountered any hazard worse than the oncoming motorist in the lane I'm trying to clear.

Dermot

jayok

So it looks like a touchy subject.

I wouldn't consider the matter touchy - just need to clarify what the correct process. I can understand the desire to change gear mid-turn but I suppose the question is how long are you actually spending in the turn? Do you really hit the red-line before the car is straight? You shouldn't be. Thinking about the turn more you've stopped, you move off quickly you'll be upto 20kmh before the engine starts to sound really noisy? Surely the car is straight at this stage?

I've really gotta see what I do in this situation!

Silvera

I usually change to second during the turn - though not always. Experience tells you when it is necessary to change.

As regards 'the official line' ........ when I was doing my truck lessons/test you have to change gear as soon as the truck starts to move, otherwise you would be 'revvin and goin nowhere fast'

IrishRover

Cormie, IMO you've been misinformed by most of the previous posters on this thread. No offense intended, I think they just don't realise that they actually do change gear from 1st to 2nd going through a corner. As fletch says, it's an obvious trait of the nervous learner driver who is following rules too rigidly that stays in first with the engine screaming while making a turn.

For your test, you'd probably be best moving off in first and going forward straight as far as you can before changing into second and then turn the wheel for the corner. Be as smooth as you can though - don't make this a violent last minute change of direction.

Like crossing your hands on the wheel, changing mid-turn is another one of those things that may count against you on the driving test but in the real world things are different.

When you become an experienced driver the actual mechanics of how to drive are no longer an issue. By that I mean that the feel of the pedals, the wheels on the road, the feedback through the steering wheel, the running of the engine all become like an extension of your body. How to operate a vehicle becomes instinct. Once you are at the point when you no longer need to concentrate on what you are doing in order to move, stop and change the direction of the car, you can only then turn your attention properly to what's going on around you on the road. I think a lot of the reason why there are so many bad drivers in Ireland is because so many people think that driving is all about how to operate a car and never progress beyond this.

I'm not calling you a bad driver by the way. It's a good question and I doubt many people who are learning to drive would think to ask.

jayok

As regards 'the official line' ........ when I was doing my truck lessons/test you have to change gear as soon as the truck starts to move, otherwise you would be 'revvin and goin nowhere fast'

Trucks are different beasts though, you could have, what?, nearly 24 different gear ratios, depending on load, road elevation, etc.

Just checked Roadcraft doesn't state not to change gear through the turn but does state to be in the correct gear to complete the turn. That for me would suggest not to change from 1st to 2nd - I don't think your assessor will nail you for this. If s/he does they are being really, really pedantic.

jayok

I too agree with IrishRover in that when you gain experience the mechanics of moving the car will become more fluent. However what also makes a significant proportion of Irish drivers poor drivers is they learn the incorrect mechanics of controlling the car and don't advance from there. It is truely a positive sign that you asked the question and its good to have a discussion on it.

However, techniques like changing gears at inappropriate times, incorrect use of brakes, one hand on the wheel another on your lap, etc. Are never the correct mechanics to drive no matter how good you think your car control is it is simply wrong. If you are going to learn something you may as well do it right. Again in the situation you describe I still think you can:

a) Use first to complete the turn
b) Get into second before the turn starts

In all situations you should try to do either of the above. But we are human and things don't always work out the way you want it.

cormie

Thanks for all the input!

I've been driving for a year now and this is just one issue I'm not sure of. I've become quite familiar with the feel of driving. It's quite daunting when they put you in a new car

rander00

I always change from 1st to 2nd mid corner when pulling away from a stop(if I'm first at the junction) If I'm a bit back, I will change to 2nd before the corner.

Same here. Its impossible not too, in the situation he is describing. Being 1st at the lights. If i was in the test, i think i`d try run it into 2nd ASAP, then do the turn. And make sure u dont cut the turn when your focusing on ur gear issue.