Panorama Sunday 10.15pm Celtic/Rangers

Pal

Scotland's Secret Shame
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4284023.stm

p.pete

Cheers must try (remember to) watch that!

MrJoeSoap

Looks good, don't know why its called "Scotlands Secret Shame" though, theres nothing much 'secret' about it.

eirebhoy

Anyone catch this? Its on again on Thursday night/Friday morning. Is it worth taping?

The Muppet

eirebhoy wrote:

Anyone catch this? Its on again on Thursday night/Friday morning. Is it worth taping?

Yep I watched it. Nothing really surprising or new in it TBH. Just gave a background to the history between the two clubs and then focused on the violence surrounding last weekends old firm derby and the actions or lack of being taken by the clubs to erradicate the problem.. The amound of violence around the game is quite shocking but nothing new.

Pal

Rangers get bad press for their Nazi salutes.

Celtic get stick over the RA chants

A Dub in Glasgo

I thought it was a poorly researched piece from the usually good Panorama team. I have some issues with it which I can go into later if the mods allow it. As usual in these circumstances, it is impossible to divorce politics from the football.

sleepwalker

only caught the last ten minutes seemed pretty decent from what i saw

KdjaCL

Bah typical ****e you expect the Sun to have in their paper, altho mostly true the "what are you gonnna do about your fans huh huh huh huh? " line of questioning and smugness from the women who interviewed Quinn and Murray was a joke. Both came accross well and in a "lets be ****ing sensible " type way are doing all they can without playing in front of 7 people every week.

She made it like it was their fault and went on and kept asking why they didnt do enough to stop it. Basically she wanted Celtic/Rangers to kick out every fan who chanted anything sectarian at games.

Was very informative about the basis of hatred and the actual supporter and some reporter,and head of police interviews (at the end) made more sense than her "burn them" attiude. Just that line of questioning made it seem more Sun shock value reporting rather than highlighting an issue (which is what Panorama does most of the time), nicely shows why i despise 90% of Old Firm fans they are simply not football fans and have a passing interest in the game.

kdjac

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

Because elements in society are sectarian and a lot of the things classed as sectarian are not actually sectarian. There are a lot of ignorant people who insist on labelling anything they disagree with as sectarian therefore there is a label stigma attached.

jank

Crap program, it was all very PC rather then go deep into the roots of the problem. Ive seen much better in my time especially from the "True Lives" people.

Also one of those so called "sectarian songs" was the Irish national anthem sung in english....now what the **** was all that about. Maybe we will have to hum it in future.
Expect a bit of a backlash and the BBC issue yet an other apology to offended irish viewers

KdjaCL

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

They do if prosecuted by police 1 Celtic fan this season Rangers had no figures, but they have to be charged by police and the head of police lad explained it all fairly well.

kdjac

A Dub in Glasgo

The new law here is a dangerous piece of legislation where people here can charged with Breach of The Peace aggravated by Sectarianism (same stigma as Rascism). If someone sings the Irish national anthem, they can get done. If someone calls Rangers fans Huns, they can get done. If Rangers fans call Celtic fans Tims, they can get done. If someone has the 4 Provinces of Ireland flag, they can get done. I would probably get done if I had my signature on my t-shirt!

If you can imagine all the names that you refer to your rival club, that will give an indication of how absurd this law is being implemented.

As per usual in these circumstances, Panorama tried its hardest to appear even handed when the sectarian (= correct definition) problem in Scotland most certainly is not.

A Dub in Glasgo

I thought the following review on etims summed the programme up perfectly

More Sense From Bananarama
Contributed by Glen TimTim
Monday, 28 February 2005

It was never likely to be 40 minutes that solved the problem of sectarianism in Scotland but you would have thought that tonight’s Panorama could maybe have at least went into a wee bit more depth that it did. The “one’s as bad as the other” mentality that permeates the Scottish media is only to be expected in a country where anti Catholicism is ingrained in the psyche but I was really expecting the Panorama team to bring a fresh eye to the issue.

I was sadly mistaken.

The programme gave a “sectarianism by numbers” account of the issue. We had the usual trip to the casualty ward to see the blood and the slashings that always accompany Celtic V Rangers games. No matter how many times you see them, these images are always shocking. And that’s why Panorama were there. Not to get a deeper understanding of what lies at the heart of the problem but rather to give the viewer a wee titillating view of someone bleeding.

We had the usual stuff about Celtic fans singing republican songs in an attempt to balance things up with the anti catholic stuff we hear from the huns. Now regardless of whether you think it’s a good thing or not to sing these songs at Celtic games nobody would suggest that they are sectarian - as in opposed to another faith. The fact that Panorama chose to go down this road showed this viewer that they were struggling to balance the programme.

Because to be fair to them they did make the huns (a word I just have to come back to in a minute) look like a bunch of anti catholic bigots. And they made those charged with running the huns look like horse’s arses. Murray and MacIntyre both in their own way showed up the failures in the huns approach to sectarianism. MacIntyre played the “90 minute bigot” card only to have Chief Inspector Kevin Smith blow that one out of the water. Murray attempted to deflect a question regarding how many huns were banned for sectarianism onto MacIntyre only to be told by the interviewer that MacIntyre had already been asked and didn’t know the answer. This left Murray opening and closing his mouth like a goldfish and more importantly it made the Rangers Chairman look like he didn’t take a serious enough interest in the issue.

The Panorama team went undercover at the huns end of the recent Scottish Cup tie and if they were looking for sectarian behaviour they weren’t disappointed. “Red Hand” gestures were defined as “Nazi salutes” (and MacIntyre’s lame defence of these was another example to the nation of his attitude.) The Billy Boys was blasted out and the Sash got a wee airing as well. They also chanted of their dislike for Jack McConnell which isn’t something I’ve heard Celtic fans do. It looked pretty bad if you were a hun.

Of course though if you’re calling a documentary “Scotland’s shame” you have to do more than just show Rangers’ shame don’t you? The difficulty here is that you have to look long and hard to find anti Protestant feeling in the Celtic community. Don’t get me wrong - I know it exists but you’d have to look under a lot of rocks before you find it. A trip to Polmont by the Panorama team introduced us to Brian, a young offender who talked about being involved in Celtic V Rangers violence. Brian spoke of hating “Proddys” but when Brian spoke of committing violence against “Rangers fans” it was surprising to hear a BBC journalist feed him the word “protestants.” Surely if Brian had wanted to say “protestants” he would have done so himself?

The struggle to find good solid examples of anti protestantism must have proved too much of a challenge for the team because their focus switched to the issues surrounding Celtic fans and singing republican songs. Quinn was interviewed and regardless of whether you like the man or not he gave a much more polished performance than Murray. He was articulate and concise without appearing defensive of either his or the clubs record on the issue of sectarianism. Quinn said that you almost never hear republican songs at Celtic Park these days. The scene instantly cut to Rugby Park and the Boys of the Old Brigade could clearly be heard. Which was a bit unfair - Quinn was talking about home games. Although it has to be said you rarely hear anything sung at home games these days.

It would appear that when it comes to debating sectarianism the problem with Celtic fans is that many of them have a political opinion that isn’t popular with the rest of the UK. We saw images of the minute’s silence after September 11th and we heard the one, maybe two, fans who decided to sing the BOTOB during it. What we weren't told was that these guys weren't even in the ground at the time and were unaware that the minute's silence had started. It was in stark contrast to the undercover footage of the huns. However if Panorama wanted to do a documentary about large groups of people singing songs about a set of political beliefs and about an organisation that many view as a terrorist one then fair enough. But this was a documentary about sectarianism - and to be honest maybe it’s time someone spelt out the link to me because I just didn’t see it in this 40 minutes.

The one segment that had me shouting at the TV was when they tried to explain the meaning behind the sectarian language in Scotland. “Fenian” was a derogatory term for “Catholic.” “Hun” was a derogatory term for “Protestant” and “Tim” was also derogatory term for “Catholic.” So there you have it - Stein, McGrain, Dalglish were all huns. Who would have thought it? This site is in fact all about Catholicism hence the four or five images at the top of past popes. You live and learn.

Utter nonsense of course but this was going out nationally and there must be folk in Kent or wherever who came away from this thinking they had learned something. Let’s just be clear here - “hun” means Rangers fans. Always has and always will. It’s used the length and breadth of this country. We’ve used it on this site since we began and we would strongly deny any sectarian motive behind it. Also “tim” means Celtic fan. We call ourselves “ETims” because we’re Celtic fans. Nothing more, nothing less. Some of us may be Catholic but we certainly don’t define a “tim” as a Catholic and we don’t know any other tim who does. So who were those people they stopped in the street and asked whether “tim” was offensive? Did they have to go through a few of them before they got the answer they were looking for?

Graham Speirs chipped in and it has to be said that it wasn’t his finest hour. Many a time have we read Graham talk of the hypocrisy of the Scottish media - lambasting the Celtic V Rangers atmosphere while really revelling in it. Here he did exactly the same thing. He’s also been fair unequivocal in his assertion that the bigger issue is down Ibrox way. This didn’t come across in this 40 minutes.

Tom Devine of Aberdeen University tried to give a historical context for the issue but in the time given he was unable to offer more than limited bullet points. I was disappointed to see he chose to give the impression that the starting point for sectarianism in Scotland was when the Irish came to the country. Anyone who has read Devine will know that there were more Anti Catholic organisations in Glasgow than there were Catholics prior to the Irish immigration. The institutionalised sectarianism was glossed over and this simply reflected the Doctor Suess style journalistic style employed.

Overall this was a missed opportunity. The problems in this country are many and varied. A 40 minute documentary is never going to address them all. However, if you wish to talk seriously about sectarianism in Scotland you have to acknowledge that the old “one’s as bad as the other” line just isn’t the case. The need for balance undermines any serious journalistic credibility and the entire process is rendered pointless. If Panorama want to do a documentary about support for the IRA in the UK then I’m perfectly willing to accept that Celtic fans will be open to scrutiny. This documentary was about sectarianism and when it became clear to them that they couldn’t find examples in the Celtic support then they should have acknowledged that rather than trying to bracket the support with the huns.

When all is said and done the huns rightly came out of this looking as if they had something to hide. If the production team had done their jobs correctly we would have been left in no doubt as to what that was and where the heart of the problem lay.

The Muppet

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I thought the following review on etims summed the programme up perfectly

Not wishing to be provocative but that report is not at all balanced and just tries to apportion the blame on Rangers . See below for a few quotes to s support this viewpoint. Politics should have no place in a football stadium and no amount of excuses changes that. Instead of playing the blame game , it would be better if both clubs ejected the Yobs as soon as they started their sectarian antics.

There is no point trying plead innocence on behalf of the Celtic fans as we have seen their sectarianism at close quarters in Landsdown. Celtic and Rangers fans are as bad as one another and the sooner they grow up and do something about it the better for all.

Murray attempted to deflect a question regarding how many huns were banned for sectarianism onto MacIntyre only to be told by the interviewer that MacIntyre had already been asked and didn’t know the answer. This left Murray opening and closing his mouth like a goldfish and more importantly it made the Rangers Chairman look like he didn’t take a serious enough interest in the issue.

What about Martin O Neill reaction when he was asked why Celtic didn't do more to stamp out the problem. He was gobsmacked taht he was even asked the Question.

“Red Hand” gestures were defined as “Nazi salutes” (and MacIntyre’s lame defence of these was another example to the nation of his attitude.) The Billy Boys was blasted out and the Sash got a wee airing as well. They also chanted of their dislike for Jack McConnell which isn’t something I’ve heard Celtic fans do. It looked pretty bad if you were a hun

From a Neutral point of view their behaviour looked no worse than the Celtic Fans. There was an element of Yobs on both sides.

The difficulty here is that you have to look long and hard to find anti Protestant feeling in the Celtic community. Don’t get me wrong - I know it exists but you’d have to look under a lot of rocks before you find it.

Who believes that?

We saw images of the minute’s silence after September 11th and we heard the one, maybe two, fans who decided to sing the BOTOB during it. What we weren't told was that these guys weren't even in the ground at the time and were unaware that the minute's silence had started.

Deaf were they? Thats just the funniest part of the report and effectively displays the bias behind it.

My comments are unlikely to be appreciated by the Celtc fans here but if we going to discuss this issue let us at least be balanced and honest about the problem. No offence intented to Celtic Fans.

Dr. Dre

I agreee with a lot of you who said that this really wasn't a typical panorama production, thought it was very light and a bit "tabloid" like.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Muppet wrote:

Not wishing to be provocative but that report is not at all balanced and just tries to apportion the blame on Rangers . See below for a few quotes to s support this viewpoint. Politics should have no place in a football stadium and no amount of excuses changes that. Instead of playing the blame game , it would be better if both clubs ejected the Yobs as soon as they started their sectarian antics.

There is no point trying plead innocence on behalf of the Celtic fans as we have seen their sectarianism at close quarters in Landsdown. Celtic and Rangers fans are as bad as one another and the sooner they grow up and do something about it the better for all.

It is from a Celtic fanzine so it will have its own view. My own experience does not lend to the anti-protestant nature of the Celtic support portrayed in the Panorama programme.

What about Martin O Neill reaction when he was asked why Celtic didn't do more to stamp out the problem. He was gobsmacked taht he was even asked the Question.

Yes he was gob smacked and it just proved how the Panorama team had to scrape the barrell to provide 'balance'. That interview was not for the programme, it was from the time O'Neill was 'ambushed' by a reporter over 4 years ago and soon after he joined Celtic. Panorama dragged this one up from the BBC vaults to provide the 'balance' they felt they needed to show.

From a Neutral point of view their behaviour looked no worse than the Celtic Fans. There was an element of Yobs on both sides.

There are Yobs in the support of all football clubs including Manchester United.

Who believes that?

People can believe what they want but I have not met many Celtic fans with anti-protestant feelings and I have lived here for 12 years and have gone to hundreds of games and I have met thousands of Celtic fans from across the globe.

Deaf were they? Thats just the funniest part of the report and effectively displays the bias behind it.

He was stating a fact, the singing that was heard on the Panorama programme was from a few fans who were outside the ground waiting to come in. Anyone who has ever been to a football match will tell you that when you are waiting to get into the ground, you cannot see or hear what is going on inside the ground.

My comments are unlikely to be appreciated by the Celtc fans here but if we going to discuss this issue let us at least be balanced and honest about the problem. No offence intented to Celtic Fans.

Discuss what though? Sectarianism in Scotland? Rangers and Celtic fans have yobs in their support? Celtic have fans in their support who sing political songs?

On the subject of sectarianism in Scotland, it is not an equal problem although the Panorama team tried to make it one.

The Muppet

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is from a Celtic fanzine so it will have its own view. My own experience does not lend to the anti-protestant nature of the Celtic support portrayed in the Panorama programme.

Having never been to and Old Firm game I,m not in a position to argue with you, however I have witnessed Celtic Fans at Landsdowm being what I would call sectarian.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yes he was gob smacked and it just proved how the Panorama team had to scrape the barrell to provide 'balance'. That interview was not for the programme, it was from the time O'Neill was 'ambushed' by a reporter over 4 years ago and soon after he joined Celtic. Panorama dragged this one up from the BBC vaults to provide the 'balance' they felt they needed to show.

Could his reply be any different today. Both clubs appear to want to bury theri heads in the sand and ignore the problem with their supporters.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There are Yobs in the support of all football clubs including Manchester United.

Granted but this discussion and TV Programme is about Celtic/Rangers.

He was stating a fact, the singing that was heard on the Panorama programme was from a few fans who were outside the ground waiting to come in. Anyone who has ever been to a football match will tell you that when you are waiting to get into the ground, you cannot see or hear what is going on inside the ground.

Do you believe that they couldn't hear the tannoy announcer calling for the minute silence and the crowd going quiet from their position yet the microphone could clearly pick up thir singing. Come on be realistic that suggestion is laughable.

Discuss what though? Sectarianism in Scotland? Rangers and Celtic fans have yobs in their support? Celtic have fans in their support who sing political songs?

On the subject of sectarianism in Scotland, it is not an equal problem although the Panorama team tried to make it one.

The programm focused on Celti /Rangers not Scotland as a whole, I believe it is an equal problem in that context.

As in any conflict resoultion the starting point is to admit that there is right and more importantly wrong on both sides and take it from there to sort out the differences. The article above attemps to lay the majority of blame at Rangers door , Thats attitude is unlikely to lead to an improvemnet in the situation.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Muppet wrote:

Having never been to and Old Firm game I,m not in a position to argue with you, however I have witnessed Celtic Fans at Landsdowm being what I would call sectarian.

It is a while since I have been to Lansdowne but what where their actions that lead you to label them as sectarian?

Could his reply be any different today.

Very much so. He was not asked his opinion today. The BBC dragged up an 'ambushed' interview from 4 years ago when O'Neill was caught ill prepared after just coming to Scotland

Both clubs appear to want to bury theri heads in the sand and ignore the problem with their supporters.

Try going to the next Celtic home game and you will struggle to hear anything being sung never mind anything which people class as sectarian (their definitions are usually way off the mark though).

Granted but this discussion and TV Programme is about Celtic/Rangers.

It is but to try and slur all CEltic/Rnagers fans on the actions of some yobs is not really addressing the poiunt. The same arguments and slurs can be levelled at all clubs.

Do you believe that they couldn't hear the tannoy announcer calling for the minute silence and the crowd going quiet from their position yet the microphone could clearly pick up thir singing. Come on be realistic that suggestion is laughable.

It is obviously been awhile since you have been at a football game where you are waiting to get into the ground and the singing outside is in full flow. It is not laughable to suggest that people outside the football ground were not aware that there was a minutes silence going on inside the ground. It is a fact that the singing that as picked up was outside the ground. The BBC programme did not explain this and inferred that the minutes silence was broken by fans inside the gound.

The programm focused on Celti /Rangers not Scotland as a whole, I believe it is an equal problem in that context.

The programme was about sectarianism in Scotland and used Celtic/Rangers as the vehicle to show that. In my experience, it is not an equal problem and until that has been recognised, we will see the usual guff about 'one side is as bad as the other' which will not address the issues involved.

As in any conflict resoultion the starting point is to admit that there is right and more importantly wrong on both sides and take it from there to sort out the differences. The article above attemps to lay the majority of blame at Rangers door , Thats attitude is unlikely to lead to an improvemnet in the situation.

Do a bit more researching if you still think that 'one side is as bad as the other' when it comes to sectarianism in Scotland

The Muppet

The sectarinaism at Lansdown was highly publicicsed , Celtic fans deny they were being sectarian but most neutrals were of the opinion that they were.

My comment are about the sectarianis between Celtic/Rangers football clubs , I have no knowledge of what happens in the rest of Scotland and TBH this is the wrong forum for that discussion. Denying either clubs role in the problem is not very constructive. Most soccer fans are all too aware of the history between these clubs and the underlying reasons for them. It goes far beyond normal club rivalries as is evident by the scenes and interviews from the Glasgow hospitals in the documentary.

Did you see the young Celtic fan that was beaten by his own supporters. He wore a Blue Track suit over his celtic top and was attacke while on his way home. How can you not admit that that was a sectarian attack.


On a technical point about the Louts singing during the minutes silence. How come the other supporters that you say were singing outside the ground were not heard on the tape and so were honouring the silence. Your explanation that they were unaware of the minutes silence is a highly unlikly scenario.

Pal

that is true. the fans outside were coming in and making noise.

I was at an Old Firm game the day a minutes silence was held for the Dunblane children.

the stadium was silent but you could hear people outside.

it often happens.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Muppet wrote:

The sectarinaism at Lansdown was highly publicicsed , Celtic fans deny they were being sectarian but most neutrals were of the opinion that they were.

If you define sectarian as not liking your football rivals, they were being sectarian. The place for the booing may not have been the most appropriate but that does not make their actions truly sectarian (in the term defined by Panorama and what most people really mean i.e. religious)

My comment are about the sectarianis between Celtic/Rangers football clubs , I have no knowledge of what happens in the rest of Scotland and TBH this is the wrong forum for that discussion.

Which is why I posted this in post 7.

Denying either clubs role in the problem is not very constructive. Most soccer fans are all too aware of the history between these clubs and the underlying reasons for them. It goes far beyond normal club rivalries as is evident by the scenes and interviews from the Glasgow hospitals in the documentary.

Not denying Celtics problems but I am denying that 'one side is as bad as the other'. It is all to do with proportions.

Did you see the young Celtic fan that was beaten by his own supporters. He wore a Blue Track suit over his celtic top and was attacke while on his way home. How can you not admit that that was a sectarian attack.

Yes I seen it and it is quite embarrassing when you get drunk guys taking their rivalry too far.

On a technical point about the Louts singing during the minutes silence. How come the other supporters that you say were singing outside the ground were not heard on the tape and so were honouring the silence. Your explanation that they were unaware of the minutes silence is a highly unlikly scenario.

It is obvious you want to believe what you want to believe but I was at that game and it was a case of people outside singing in full flow without knowing what was happening in the ground. It is very likely to happen. You have yet to comment on the way the BBC portrayed that incident and the inference they wanted the viewer to take from it.

The Muppet

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yes I seen it and it is quite embarrassing when you get drunk guys taking their rivalry too far. .

Whatever the reason it was still an unjustified sectarian attack just as there were Celtic fans attacked by Rangers fans,The lad hardly provoked his fellow Celtic fans into attacking him, as I said some Rangers/Celtic fans as bad as one another.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is obvious you want to believe what you want to believe but I was at that game and it was a case of people outside singing in full flow without knowing what was happening in the ground. It is very likely to happen. You have yet to comment on the way the BBC portrayed that incident and the inference they wanted the viewer to take from it.

I don't "want" to believe anything, I believe what I saw and Heard in the programme which was a small few thugs showing disrespect for a minutes silence for the victims of 9/11. I,m well aware that you'll always get the odd moron that will do something like that but instead of defending them it's better to hold your hands up and say OK we have a minority of morons attached to the club, What club doesn't? Defending them by saying they were not aware of the slience shows bias and just doesn't wash, Sorry.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Muppet wrote:

I don't "want" to believe anything, I believe what I saw and Heard in the programme which was a small few thugs showing disrespect for a minutes silence for the victims of 9/11. I,m well aware that you'll always get the odd moron that will do something like that but instead of defending them it's better to hold your hands up and say OK we have a minority of morons attached to the club, What club doesn't? Defending them by saying they were not aware of the slience shows bias and just doesn't wash, Sorry.

No it does not show bias, it shows I was there and I know what I am talking about. Talk to anybody who was there or who watched the actual game on TV then if you will not believe me. The BBC commentator, Rob McClean, even said that it was fans outside singing during the silence when it was happening!!. I don't know why you are finding it difficult to think that the Panorama programme was edited in the way you saw to infer that Celtic fans knowingly broke the silence. You are basing your whole point on something that you saw on a heavily edited TV programme. It is factually incorrect.

The Muppet

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No it does not show bias, it shows I was there and I know what I am talking about. Talk to anybody who was there or who watched the actual game on TV then if you will not believe me. The BBC commentator, Rob McClean, even said that it was fans outside singing during the silence when it was happening!!. I don't know why you are finding it difficult to think that the Panorama programme was edited in the way you saw to infer that Celtic fans knowingly broke the silence. You are basing your whole point on something that you saw on a heavily edited TV programme. It is factually incorrect.

Sorry just to clarify. I do believe you that they were outside the ground but I don't believe they were unaware that there was a minutes silence in progress. The Microphone that picked up the singing would have been inside the ground so to suggest that they could not hear what was happening inside the ground despite being close enough for the Microphone to clearly pick them up is the bit I don't believe.

A Dub in Glasgo

Celtic Football Club have issued a statement

Celtic today issued the followng statement regarding the Panorama programme that was screened last Sunday, February 27, by the BBC.

From celticfc.net:

Panorama – February 27th 2005

It is disappointing that a programme we were assured would cover the issue of sectarianism in Scotland should choose to focus instead on the much narrower question of the role of Celtic and Rangers in this matter.

The broad spectrum of representatives at the recent Sectarian Summit showed that this is a far wider issue for Scottish society. Celtic were represented at the highest level at the summit and repeated clearly our commitment to the effort to eliminate sectarianism from Scottish society.

Instead, the programme chose to sensationalise the issues involved, without giving full recognition of the robust anti-sectarian stance taken by the club and the many vigorous steps we have taken both in education and enforcement over a period of many years.

Despite detailing these many initiatives during the interview with Brian Quinn and in separate discussions, they were largely omitted.

Unfortunately, there is currently no legal provision for banning orders in Scotland, enabling anyone to buy a ticket in a public sale, and in practice, Celtic are only able to take action against season ticket holders, who account for 53,000 of our stadium capacity of 60,000.

This season, season ticket holders have visited the ground over one million times, and of this number there were 26 arrests. Twenty-two were drink-related and four had an alleged sectarian dimension. Of that four, there has so far been one person convicted of sectarian behaviour.

Any season ticket holder convicted of such an offence will automatically have their ticket revoked, but the low number of arrests is, we believe, a compelling reflection of the success achieved at Celtic Park. It was illuminating that, despite secret filming, the programme failed to show a single incident of bad behaviour amongst our own support at Celtic Park

So far as away fixtures are concerned, Celtic has very limited powers to deal with any offences caused by its supporters. Responsibility for such enforcement lies with the home club and the local police force. Nevertheless, Celtic sends stewards to many away grounds to assist the home club and local police in maintaining public order. Again, any season-ticket holder convicted of sectarian offences at away games will receive an automatic indefinite suspension of their ticket.

The good behaviour of Celtic’s fans has been highlighted in recent years after 80,000 supporters travelled to Seville for the UEFA Cup Final in 2003, without a single arrest, leading to them receiving both the FIFA and UEFA Fair Play Awards for that year. More recently, we received letters of praise for our fans from the police chiefs in both Barcelona and Milan after this season’s Champions’ League matches.

It is extremely encouraging that our own fans have been active in bringing the small minority displaying this sort of behaviour to the attention of stewards and police at Celtic Park. They, like the club, utterly condemn sectarianism in all its forms - a point club chairman Brian Quinn made repeatedly throughout the recording of his interview.

--End--

KdjaCL

It is disappointing that a programme we were assured would cover the issue of sectarianism in Scotland should choose to focus instead on the much narrower question of the role of Celtic and Rangers in this matter.

Totally agree with that.

It is extremely encouraging that our own fans have been active in bringing the small minority

Hee hee Hee hee hee totally pissed myself at that, small minority my arse or maybes it a typo and should read.

It is extremely encouraging that our own fans have been active in bringing the small minority NOT displaying this sort of behaviour to the attention of stewards and police at Celtic Park.

kdjac

A Dub in Glasgo

kdjac

When was the last time you were at Celtic Park? If it was within the last 2 years, you will have noticed that there a very very few sectarian songs sung at CP. There are the odd Irish rebel songs, the odd Irish related song and a few football songs. In fact, over the last 6 months, even all those songs have disappeared and the atmosphere at CP is dreadful. The last good atmosphere was when Celtic drew with AC Milan in December and that was not even up there with some of the earlier CL matches. The Celtic board have succeeded in draining any atmosphere from the game so your post does not make any sense.

KdjaCL

Last time i was there was there was when Pats drew 0-0 in 98, before that Brattbaak (sp?) 1st game vs Hearts i think it was 96ish 97ish.

So Celtic fans now shop each other for saying the word Hun?

Both Old Firm teams while obviously not publicly do exploit the sectarianism that exists in that part of the world. They have done for years and now that there is public outrage :eek: they are now trying to stop it, even from the hidden camera footage on panaroma it was quite clear both sets of fans were chanting bad things.


Imo it will be never be stopped it goes beyond football and most of the so called "90 minute bigots" are simply fans of each club because of it, they are not football fans but using a team and its colours to show their political and religous persuasions.

kdjac

A Dub in Glasgo

KdjaC wrote:

So Celtic fans now shop each other for saying the word Hun?

No. Hun is not sectarian, it is slang for a Rangers fan. Are we into banning slang at football grounds now as well?

eirebhoy

Most of the secterian songs are sung by the Irish who travel to away games. They sing Celtic Symphony and when it gets to the "Ooh Aah, Up the Ra" bit there'd be no more than 10 people singing.

A Dub in Glasgo - Has that singing section started at CP yet?

KdjaCL

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No. Hun is not sectarian, it is slang for a Rangers fan. Are we into banning slang at football grounds now as well?

Mr Police man on Panorama specificaly said using the word Hun was an offence.


kdjac

A Dub in Glasgo

KdjaC wrote:

Mr Police man on Panorama specificaly said using the word Hun was an offence.


kdjac

Which is why I said this earlier

Just because the police have not got a clue about what is and is not sectarian does not mean we all should go into clueless mode.

It is exactly the same if you referred to Man United fans as 'Mancs' or arsenal fans as 'Gooners'. It is absolutely ludicrous.

A Dub in Glasgo

eirebhoy wrote:

A Dub in Glasgo - Has that singing section started at CP yet?

Not yet, I believe it is section 141 in the Jock Stein Stand. It will probably get off the ground next season after a lot of people do not renew their season books. Unless Celtic give guidance on the singing material, there will be a lot of people arrested and convicted for singing the Irish National Anthem. It is going to be strange when Ireland play that the Jackie McNamama game, the whole stadium could be arrested for sectarianism!!