3 "expelled" from IRA

billy the squid · 26-02-2005 2:28am #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0225/sinnfein.html

three members of the IRA have been expelled. its more of a question that I have really rather than my thoughts on this, but has there ever been expulsions from the IRA before.

To be honest there was little choice in this for the IRA. the family didnt want the "body in the bog" or "padre pio" soloution from the IRA and the dogs on the street knew who did this according to the mccartney family.

does this open the possibility of disgruntled former IRA members from going to the police? does this pose a "security risk" for the IRA?

Redleslie2 · 26-02-2005 2:59am

Punishment beating time methinks. Drive the SF bashers mad.

mycroft · 26-02-2005 1:26pm

And it's only take a month for campaigning by an incredibly brave family and a community taking a step forward againist IRA intimidation.

Cork · 26-02-2005 1:40pm

I tought they would apologise for the actions of their members - but this is the IRA - that never says sorry.

It never advised people either to go to the Police.

Last night's statement was dragged out of the IRA.

The dogs in the street knew IRA members killed Robert McCarney.

It took the IRA weeks to respond - only after the brave campaigning by the McCartney family.

Sand · 26-02-2005 2:00pm

How do we know this isnt simply a public relations exercise?

Think about it. Its taken a month and tremendous pressure from the McCartney family to reach this point, a month during which the killers allegedly repeatedly visited SF HQ in Belfast as part of their normal day jobs. The killers werent expelled because SF/IRA disaproved of their actions. They were expelled because the McCartney killing was becoming a serious PR nightmare for the provos.

Whose to say they werent approached by Adams and Co and told "Listen, we need to expel you publicly because what you did is causing us some heat, but off the table we're still good mates, we wont allow anyone to sell you out to the cops"

SF/IRA have come as far as they will come with regard to encouraging people to go to the PSNI - i.e. they wont. Theyre tackling the PR nightmare by publicly expelling the killers. The killers wont be given to the PSNI - one of them is a very senior Republican and if hes betrayed to them, whose to say what he'll say?

Everyones a winner! Killers get off, SF/IRA save their hides, and justice ( in the form of the killers being expelled) is served! Well, yeah the McCartneys might still wimper about justice but theyre traitors trying to embarrass the Provos anyway. The only loose end is Devine, and without any other witnessess brave enough to come forward its hearsay, and with a few threats to Devines family and the new view in the community that the IRA have "dealt" with the killers theres a good chance hell think twice.

mike65 · 26-02-2005 2:12pm

Make of this what you will

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/26/uira.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/02/26/ixportaltop.html

Gerry Adams has put further pressure on republicans involved in the events surrounding the death of Robert McCartney by saying he would testify in court if he had been a witness.

Three members of the IRA were expelled from the organisation yesterday following the murder of Mr McCartney, a Catholic father of two, on Jan 30.

Mr Adams, the Sinn Fein leader, said that had he been present during the events in McGinnis's bar in Belfast centre, he would have gone to a solicitor.

Mr Adams said that the IRA's decision to expel the three members was a positive step.

"The IRA acted, I think, on its own counsel on all of this,'' Mr Adams said.

"I think there are other issues involved but I want to make this very, very clear. Had I found myself in McGinnis's Bar and was caught up in these dreadful events, I would now be making myself available to the court as the McCartney family have asked.

"I think the situation is so serious that any self respecting republican who got caught up in all of this because of drink or because of whatever else occurred, they do have a responsibility to redeem themselves.

"They won't bring Robert McCartney back but that is what I would do if I was there.''

So there we have it Grizzly would have not gone to the police but would take the stand in a court of law. Go Figure that one.

Mike.

Capt'n Midnight · 26-02-2005 2:30pm

billy the squid wrote:

three members of the IRA have been expelled.

FF have also expelled people but I doubt it convinced anyone that that party instantly became squeaky clean. Irish politics is full of parties that have split most can trace thier roots back to a certain pre-independence party, but the majority have left..

joseph brand · 26-02-2005 2:38pm

Does anyone know why he was killed in such a brutal fashion??

I have read plenty of papers and web pages but none give a reason other than a pub fight.

mike65 · 26-02-2005 2:38pm

FF have also expelled people but I doubt it convinced anyone that that party instantly became squeaky clean.

..and FF don't imply the expelled will be killed if they dont "do the right thing"

Mike.

joseph brand · 26-02-2005 2:43pm

..and FF don't imply the expelled will be killed if they dont "do the right thing"

Maybe they should.

Let's see, . . . . . I would have no hesitation in pulling the switch on Harney or Mr Martin if they were in the 'Hot Seat', leave them with dry heads just like The Green Mile.

mycroft · 26-02-2005 2:48pm

joseph brand wrote:

Does anyone know why he was killed in such a brutal fashion??

I have read plenty of papers and web pages but none give a reason other than a pub fight.

The reason given is, one of them made a gesture which an IRA man took ti be towards one of the women in the group with the IRA, the IRA demanded an apology there was an altercation, and the fight broke out.

Maybe it was just a bar fight, and the IRA (ooopphs former IRA) psycho's had poor impulse control.

Let's see, . . . . . I would have no hesitation in pulling the switch on Harney or Mr Martin if they were in the 'Hot Seat', leave them with dry heads just like The Green Mile.

Uh huh...bye bye now.

billy the squid · 26-02-2005 3:18pm

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1172519,00.html?f=dta

a man has handed himself over to the PSNI and been arested.

i guess he would have had little choice given that he was rebuked both by the community and the IRA

daveirl · 26-02-2005 3:25pm

This post has been deleted.

Cork · 26-02-2005 3:37pm

mike65 wrote:

So there we have it Grizzly would have not gone to the police but would take the stand in a court of law. Go Figure that one.

Mike.

Has SF ever been critical of IRA punishment beatings, expulsions and kangaroo courts?

FTA69 · 26-02-2005 3:37pm

but has there ever been expulsions from the IRA before.

Scores of them, for a variety of reasons, mostly for people carrying out homers though (robbery for personal gain), of IRA weapons were used in such a robbery the consequences were usually a lot more severe.

but this is the IRA - that never says sorry.

Except for the apology to all innocent civilians that died as a result of IRA actions and the many apologies to the families of those who were wrongly accused of being informers. The IRA has made many apologies for a variety of actions Cork.

The dogs in the street knew IRA members killed Robert McCarney.

Indeed, which is why the IRA acted in the way it did and expelled the 3 men.

Does anyone know why he was killed in such a brutal fashion??

Because the people who killed him were sociopaths on a powertrip.

Cork · 26-02-2005 3:50pm

FTA69 wrote:

Indeed, which is why the IRA acted in the way it did and expelled the 3 men.
.

It took them 3 weeks to expell these people.

It was only because of the braveness of the McCartney family & the public's revulsion with this cold blooded murder that forced the IRA to act.

SF harp on about human rights but I can't find one incidence on the net were that party has been critical of IRA punishment beatings, expulsions and kangaroo courts.

monument · 26-02-2005 4:02pm

This is a good sign, but totally useless if the ‘main instigator’ involved is not one the three. The Irish Times said that two of them were ‘high-ranking’, so there’s some hope the right people were included with the three. Does any one know for sure if the ‘main instigator’ was one of the three?

I’m a bit disappointed that this has taken so long, but at lease now they have gone this far.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/5069641?view=Eircomnet

It says one of its members, disciplined after the killing, has gone to a solicitor "to make a statement of his actions".

"The other two were advised in the strongest terms possible to come forward and to take responsibility for their actions, as the McCartney family have asked," the statement continued.

…

The IRA's statement says nothing should impede the family's search for justice. "There should be no misunderstanding of our position in that regard. Any intimidation or threats in the name of the IRA or otherwise to any person who wishes to help the McCartney family will not be tolerated."

It continues: "The internal disciplinary steps taken by the IRA are a matter for the IRA. They are not intended to be, nor should they be, seen as a substitute for the requests of the McCartney family."

...

The statement says there will be "no tolerance" of anyone who steps outside of the IRA's rules, regulations or code of conduct. "Anyone who brings the IRA into disrepute will be held accountable," it adds.

Squaletto · 26-02-2005 4:10pm

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

More wild allegations from the holier than thou brigade. The guy has come forward now let due process begin.

FTA69 · 26-02-2005 4:11pm

It was only because of the braveness of the McCartney family & the public's revulsion with this cold blooded murder that forced the IRA to act.

You can speculate all you want but the fact remains that they took action against these people and as a result of it one of the murderers has handed himself up. If they had acted in 5 minutes you would still be whinging Cork.

SF harp on about human rights but I can't find one incidence on the net were that party has been critical of IRA punishment beatings, expulsions and kangaroo courts.

Wrong again, (just like you were about the subject of apologies), Sinn Féin has consistantly stated their opposition to punishment activity. The reason they are being demonised about it is because they point out the harsh reality that it will continue in the absence of a decent police service.

Zombrex · 26-02-2005 4:18pm

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

It is good to know that the 'RA, our real army after all, only pick the best psychos to protect us from the British :rolleyes:

Seriously, I don't know how anyone can still support the IRA in this day and age. It is a group of psychotic thugs that just want to "play army" .. it should be got rid of for good forever

Zombrex · 26-02-2005 4:32pm

FTA69 wrote:

Except for the apology to all innocent civilians that died as a result of IRA actions and the many apologies to the families of those who were wrongly accused of being informers. The IRA has made many apologies for a variety of actions Cork.

The 2002 IRA statement said it was not their intention to kill non-combations, but that it was a "consequence of our actions". That is bullsh*t to be honest. They should have said, "yes we set out to kill civilians because we wanted to terrorise the British people for which we are truely sorry and will not do again". But they didn't, they made the most ridiculous statement that they didn't mean to kill civilians, which is a complete lie and insult to everyone killed.

There apologies also come years after the events. I am sure the family of Bernard Teggart took a lot of comfort in the fact that 31 years after their 15 year old son (15!) was shot in the head for being an informer the IRA apologies after repeated pressure from the Teggart family.

What good are apologies if they come years after the event and don't stop the IRA from continuing to act like psychopathic thugs

mycroft · 26-02-2005 4:34pm

FTA69 wrote:

You can speculate all you want but the fact remains that they took action against these people and as a result of it one of the murderers has handed himself up. If they had acted in 5 minutes you would still be whinging Cork.

He would, thats pure speculation FTA69? You don't know how he'd act and yet you're complaining about his speculate. It doesn't change the essential fact members of the IRA stepped forward instantly to clean up the crim scene, a few hours after the event a 19yo man arrived at the bar and demanded the security tape.

In the weeks that followed the IRA obfuscated and resisted the investigate, an arranged mob attacked the the police convoy (spare me the heavy handed response, if they'd turned up in squad car they'd have been ripped to shred, it's a self fufilling prophecy, the Police had to go in heavy handed because there would be trouble, their was trouble because the police were heavy handed)

While at the same time SF stopped short of saying talk to the police, as a grassroots campaign started.

It's speculative to assume that the IRA would have behaved in this manner no matter what. However what isn't speculative is that this is pretty much a first in the last thirty years, and we must assume that the IRA's behaviour has to be the result of the campaign by the family.

Wrong again, (just like you were about the subject of apologies), Sinn Féin has consistantly stated their opposition to punishment activity. The reason they are being demonised about it is because they point out the harsh reality that it will continue in the absence of a decent police service.

A decent police service is not happening because SF haven't joined the policing board. And spare us the good friday agreement blah blah blah, we've discovered over the past few months that SF and their colleagues have got alot to do before they can truly be commited to a peace process. Time for them to get off their arses and do it.

More wild allegations from the holier than thou brigade. The guy has come forward now let due process begin.

And and his colleagues gutted a man, and then intimidated the public in the bar to an extent that no one called an ambulance and it was a passing police car that helped the two men.

Very good smaritan imagary btw, fine community policing by the IRA

Your defense of these people is reprenhinisble.

Cork · 26-02-2005 4:51pm

FTA69 wrote:

Sinn Féin has consistantly stated their opposition to punishment activity. The reason they are being demonised about it is because they point out the harsh reality that it will continue in the absence of a decent police service.

Can you point to one incidence where SF have critised their buddies in the IRA for punishment beatings?

FTA69, If their opposition to punishment beatings is so consistant - can you provide me with a link to a statement on the web?

SF/IRA has still not encouraged people to go to the Police north or south of the border.

And and his colleagues gutted a man, and then intimidated the public in the bar to an extent that no one called an ambulance and it was a passing police car that helped the two men.

Hopefully the Nationalist people in NI will now see thru the likes of SF/IRA.

Their mask slipped and what lied underneath was ugly.

The murder, deniels, cover up and intimidation involved more than 3 men.

BuffyBot · 26-02-2005 5:25pm

mycroft wrote:

And it's only take a month for campaigning by an incredibly brave family and a community taking a step forward againist IRA intimidation.

I did ask this in another post - why it took so long, and whether it would have happened had there not been so much public scrutiny involved - funnily enough, I haven't seen an answer..

mycroft · 26-02-2005 5:35pm

Cork wrote:

Can you point to one incidence where SF have critised their buddies in the IRA for punishment beatings?

FTA69, If their opposition to punishment beatings is so consistant - can you provide me with a link to a statement on the web?

SF/IRA has still not encouraged people to go to the Police north or south of the border.

Don't hold your breath I've been waiting months for his proof that branch were intimidating SF supporters in the south. He couldn't even find a SF statement condemning this activity to support his allegation

Villain · 26-02-2005 6:15pm

Cork wrote:

Has SF ever been critical of IRA punishment beatings, expulsions and kangaroo courts?

Yes Gerry Adams said 2 weeks ago that he condemned punishment beatings, no matter who carried them out.

Cork · 26-02-2005 6:38pm

irish1 wrote:

Yes Gerry Adams said 2 weeks ago that he condemned punishment beatings, no matter who carried them out.

But he failed to condemn people who carry them out.

Bertie Ahern said; ?What I find really offensive?is that there was an ability to turn off the punishment beatings while negotiations were in progress , but as soon as the negotiations failed there was a string of them, they are again a nightly occurrence. I will give Sinn Fein full marks for discipline, but not for anything else.?

I have never heard anybody from the SF describing such attacks as criminal.

FTA69 · 26-02-2005 7:57pm

They should have said, "yes we set out to kill civilians because we wanted to terrorise the British people for which we are truely sorry and will not do again". But they didn't, they made the most ridiculous statement that they didn't mean to kill civilians, which is a complete lie and insult to everyone killed.

But they didn't do that Wicknight, they attacked economic, prestigious and military targets in England. Yes, many IRA operations were badly planned, inappropriately carried out etc and many innocent people died as a result and no talk of "hazards of war" from Republicans or whatever will change that. But your fantasy of mad bombers setting out to kill as many innocent people as possible is simply that, a fantasy. Innocent casualties were disastrous for the IRA in publicity terms, what had they to gain from it? Put it this way, if their intentions were as you described them why would they leave a warning, why wouldn't they do a Hamas on it and plant bombs packed full of shrapnel and then leave no warning at all?

There apologies also come years after the events. I am sure the family of Bernard Teggart took a lot of comfort in the fact that 31 years after their 15 year old son (15!) was shot in the head for being an informer the IRA apologies after repeated pressure from the Teggart family.

Well that was an event which should not have happened and in this new phase of reconciliation and peace apologies are a good thing. For all your criticisms of IRA apologies I have not heard you condemn the fact the Brits have apologised for nothing.

mycroft · 26-02-2005 8:12pm

FTA69 wrote:

Well that was an event which should not have happened and in this new phase of reconciliation and peace apologies are a good thing. For all your criticisms of IRA apologies I have not heard you condemn the fact the Brits have apologised for nothing.

damn i forget wasn't there something about false accusation and imprisonment, and an apology. JUST LAST WEEK.

You've not offered an apology to the families of those who were buried in an unmarked grave without a fair trial

FTA69 · 26-02-2005 8:19pm

In the weeks that followed the IRA obfuscated

They released a statement saying that people can go to the police if they want, how is that obfustication?

an arranged mob attacked the the police convoy (spare me the heavy handed response

You are ignoring the fact that people in the Short Strand hate the police and need little encouragement to attack them.

A decent police service is not happening because SF haven't joined the policing board. And spare us the good friday agreement blah blah blah, we've discovered over the past few months that SF and their colleagues have got alot to do before they can truly be commited to a peace process. Time for them to get off their arses and do it.

There seems to be this delusion that the PSNI is the way it is because Sinn Féin isn't on the policing boards. Policing reform will not suddenly take place if Sinn Féin joins the boards, the only body with the power to deliver Patten is the British Government and until they live up to that commitment we will not have hand nor part in foisting this oppressive body upon our electorate.

FTA69, If their opposition to punishment beatings is so consistant - can you provide me with a link to a statement on the web?

http://www.ulsternet-ni.co.uk/stra2403/spages/SNEWS.htm

A Dub in Glasgo · 26-02-2005 8:23pm

mycroft wrote:

damn i forget wasn't there something about false accusation and imprisonment, and an apology. JUST LAST WEEK.

You've not offered an apology to the families of those who were buried in an unmarked grave without a fair trial

We can all drag up examples of whoever we want killing children and the perps getting away with it and not even apologising

3 "expelled" from IRA

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