3 "expelled" from IRA

Villain

Cork wrote:

But he failed to condemn people who carry them out.


I have never heard anybody from the SF describing such attacks as criminal.

Actually I believe he did comdemn those who carried out these attacks, I also believe he said they were criminal.

Rant/

SF and the IRA are not the one organisation, now the media will have you believe they are and so will McDowell but there is no evidence to support these claims. I mean the Taoiseach said there wasn't any hard facts to prove that Adams and co were on the IRA army council, now if the leader of our state doesn't have any facts to prove these accusations I'd like to know how people can be so certain.

I honestly believe McDowell is taken this position because he fears for the future of his party, I mean the latest poll shows that the PD's have3% support. Thats 6% less than SF, I'm just glad Bertie has some sense and hasn't supported McDowell's accusations.

SF are working towards peace, they have done more work than any other party to help bring about Peace. Now I will admit that there may be a very small number of SF members who are involved in criminal activity but every party has had members who were, e.g. Lawlor, Burke etc, but SF are trying hard to clean up their party.

People in the Republic like myself don't really know what its like to live in the north so while we can question why the majority of Nationlists have supported SF we have to accept it. I hope that when my kids are studying history for their leaving cert they will be reading of how SF helped broker a deal that brought an end to the IRA and Northern Ireland will be a peaceful and just place.

Sinn Fein are here stay and they are commited to bringing peace to this Island.

Regards,

SF Voter

/Rant

FTA69

mycroft wrote:

damn i forget wasn't there something about false accusation and imprisonment, and an apology. JUST LAST WEEK.

You've not offered an apology to the families of those who were buried in an unmarked grave without a fair trial

No I haven't issued such an apology because I had nothing to do with it. The IRA on the other hand has and has pledged to do their best in uncovering such bodies. This is simply one apology that addresses but a few people, they still have not addressed the hundreds of innocent people they gunned down. Charles Windsor, the honourary head of the Parachute Regiment has refused point blank to apologise for the actions of his regiment on Bloody Sunday.

jbkenn

irish1 wrote:

I hope that when my kids are studying history for their leaving cert they will be reading of how SF helped broker a deal that brought an end to the IRA and Northern Ireland will be a peaceful and just place.

Sinn Fein are here stay and they are commited to bringing peace to this Island.

I hope when my grandchildren are studying for their leaving cert, they won't still be reading about the latest "crisis" in the peace process.

jbkenn

Flukey

The IRA expelled 3 men; Big deal! It is a token gesture that means nothing. They have warned others - threatened to break their legs or kill them - to take responsibility for their actions. Isn't that big of them? Gerry Adams saying he would go to the courts if he had been there, is something, as they have refused to recognise the courts, but the IRA coming out and saying they have disciplined their members does nothing for this. If they were serious they'd bring them to justice, and I am not talking about their own type. It is just a damage limitation exercise from them, not much to get excited about, except that it is a bit unprecedented, but nothing more.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I mean the latest poll shows that the PD's have3% support. Thats 6% less than SF, /Rant

So what?

SF poll ratings during the 30 years of IRA carnage were far less than 3%.

THe PDS persue their goals thru democratic politics.

SF has an assocaition with a criminal organisation that is the IRA.

This has to end.

SF are working towards peace, they have done more work than any other party to help bring about Peace.

Their record over 30 years speaks volumes & the word "Peace" does not jump out at you.

They could start by using their relationship with the IRA to get that grouging to disband.

They should actually focus in on this rather than lobbying for the early release of the killers of Gerry McCabe.

Villain

Cork wrote:

So what?

SF poll ratings during the 30 years of IRA carnage were far less than 3%.

THe PDS persue their goals thru democratic politics.

SF has an assocaition with a criminal organisation that is the IRA.

This has to end.



Their record over 30 years speaks volumes & the word "Peace" does not jump out at you.

They could start by using their relationship with the IRA to get that grouging to disband.

They should actually focus in on this rather than lobbying for the early release of the killers of Gerry McCabe.

Cork, I actually thought you were informed on the peace process but after reading that post I'm confused.

Every party on this Island would admit that Sinn Fein have done a great deal for the peace process, and cork they did use their relationship to bring a deal to the table before xmas that would have seen an end to the IRA but Mr Paisley wanted humiliation and refused to agree to the deal.

Go ask some members of the party you love so much what SF have done the peace process becuase even they would tell you that without SF there would not be a peace process.

Btw in one sentence you say "SF has an assocaition with a criminal organisation that is the IRA. This has to end."

Then in the next sentence you say "They could start by using their relationship with the IRA to get that grouging to disband."

You can't have it both ways cork!!!

Flukey

irish1 wrote:

Btw in one sentence you say "SF has an assocaition with a criminal organisation that is the IRA. This has to end."

Then in the next sentence you say "They could start by using their relationship with the IRA to get that grouging to disband."

You can't have it both ways cork!!!

That is not having it both ways. Yes they do have a connection and the best thing they can do with it is get the IRA to disband.

Villain

Flukey wrote:

That is not having it both ways. Yes they do have a connection and the best thing they can do with it is get the IRA to disband.

I agree completely Flukey and I believe SF can broker a deal that will bring about an end to the IRA, but Cork said SF's association with the IRA has to end, well you see if that ends SF won't be able to broker that deal??

Flukey

That would be part of the deal, although having said that, it should be done anyway.

Villain

So would you agree that they shouldn't end their assoication until that deal is brokered??

Flukey

The IRA should go anyway, deal or no deal. They should not be some sort of bargaining chip. They are not relevant to the problem at this stage. They are an obstruction to it now.

Villain

Well I agree with you again but I live in the real world and know that won't happen without a deal that Nationalists agree to.

Flukey

Of course there should be a deal, but that doesn't mean that the IRA has to be still there at that point and part of that deal. They can "go away" and a deal on the real issues can be done. A deal will be much easier without them.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

So would you agree that they shouldn't end their assoication until that deal is brokered??

They need to end their associations with the criminal IRA ASAP.

Either SF are a democratic party or they are not.

The days of an armalite in one hand & a ballot box in the other is over.


SF will have to go into negottiations like any other party.

IRA weapons should not be used as bargaining chips.

Well I agree with you again but I live in the real world and know that won't happen without a deal that Nationalists agree to.

Nationalists hat no time for the IRA.

Continued Criminality is the only reason for the IRAs continued existance.

FTA69

Cork wrote:

Nationalists hat no time for the IRA.

Continued Criminality is the only reason for the IRAs continued existance.

You are beginning to sound like an automated machine Cork. Many northern Nationalists do support the IRA Cork, and they do so because they remain isolated from the state and many communities are still subject to Loyalist and state oppression.

Many here have criticised the use of IRA arms as "bargaining chips", out of curiosity would the same people condemn the British government for witholding peoples' rights and entitlements (police reform and demilitarisation) as being an "obstruction to the peace process"?

Flukey

The problems over rights and entitlements started all this, going back to the civil rights marches. The IRA came after that and as a result of that. However, they never protected nationalists as it is so often protrayed. They did not stand guard at the end of roads or at doors of houses stopping intruders or attacks on nationalist areas. They went out and attacked other themselves. While they may have taken out some Loyalist paramilitaries, the majority of people they killed and injured were providing no threat to nationalists. Many were ordinary people going about their daily lives. The bombs they set off in businesses and such other targets did not protect nationalists either. So to say that the IRA protected nationalists is untrue and the same can be said of loyalist paramilitaries and their people.

In fact in many ways the actions of both led to their own people being more at risk, by encouraging the other side into acts of retaliation. Neither ever addressed the source of the real problems and they were only symptoms of it. It was only when the real issues were addressed that progress was begun to be made, as we have seen over the past 10 years. For the previous 25 years all that was put on hold by the paramilitary campaigns. So none of the paramilitaries ever protected their own communities. They just made things worse for everyone, on both sides. It is time for that to stop so that the final parts of addressing the real issues of rights and entitlements and equality for all can be completed.

Cork

Many northern Nationalists do support the IRA

How many?

The IRA has had zero mandate to carry out any action in the name of the Irish nation or people.

Many here have criticised the use of IRA arms as "bargaining chips", out of curiosity would the same people condemn the British government for witholding peoples' rights and entitlements (police reform and demilitarisation) as being an "obstruction to the peace process"?

Now the Catolic Church, Irish government and SDLP support the PSNI.

SF and their buddies in the IRA do not.

But then the IRA have their own methods such as punishment beatings.

That particuler group of Thugs (IRA) do not give 2 ***** about peoples rights and entitlements.

It does not even see killong an Irish garda on the streets of adare as a crime.

One of the most basic human rights is the right to life.

I think the provisional movement needs reminding of that.

The IRA has to go. It has not a reason to exist.

Weapons should not be used as bargaining chips in a democracy.

FTA69

How many?

A substantial amount.

The IRA has had zero mandate to carry out any action in the name of the Irish nation or people.

Nobody said they had a democratic mandate, they do have the substantial support of their communities though.

Now the Catolic Church

The same organisation who supported right-wing dictators across the world over? If they kept their noses out of politics this country would have been, and would be a lot better off.

Irish government and SDLP support the PSNI.

Their support doesn't sway me at all, the fact remains that patten reforms have not been delivered in their entirity and since we are on the business of mandates I would like to point out the Irish people ratified the GFA which includes patten.

Weapons should not be used as bargaining chips in a democracy.

So you are in agreement that British Army demilitarisation and policing reform should not be used as bargaining chips by the British government?

BuffyBot

Still waiting on some one to answer my earlier post.. FTA/BCB et al?

I did ask this in another post - why it took so long, and whether it would have happened had there not been so much public scrutiny involved - funnily enough, I haven't seen an answer..

So, why did the IRA take so long to drum these three out? And do you think they would have been disciplined at all if there had been no media/government pressure applied?

Villain

Cork wrote:

They need to end their associations with the criminal IRA ASAP.

Either SF are a democratic party or they are not.

The days of an armalite in one hand & a ballot box in the other is over.


SF will have to go into negottiations like any other party.

IRA weapons should not be used as bargaining chips.

AH but Cork you said

They could start by using their relationship with the IRA to get that grouging to disband

so how can they do that if they end their association with the IRA??

I'm begining to think you don't understand the issues at hand at all.

cdebru

BuffyBot wrote:

Still waiting on some one to answer my earlier post.. FTA/BCB et al?



So, why did the IRA take so long to drum these three out? And do you think they would have been disciplined at all if there had been no media/government pressure applied?

just 0ver 3 weeks that is hardly a long time

presumably they had some kind of investigation and spoke to the people who were involved and others who were present

I would imagine there is a procedure to be followed when court martialing their own volunteers

it would have been better if it had happened sooner but it is done now this is what people were looking for the IRA has expelled people who were involved in criminality

[ Daithí ]

Cork wrote:

But then the IRA have their own methods such as punishment beatings.

Funnily enough, the Irish and British armies employ "interrogation" methods that are similar to the IRA's. And those armies are "legitimate", right?

Cork wrote:

One of the most basic human rights is the right to life.

That's nice to know. Tell that to the British army.

A Dub in Glasgo

BuffyBot wrote:

Still waiting on some one to answer my earlier post.. FTA/BCB et al?



So, why did the IRA take so long to drum these three out? And do you think they would have been disciplined at all if there had been no media/government pressure applied?

Is a few weeks really so long? Nobody knows if they would have carried out the same action if there had been no media/government pressure applied. It is possible that no action would have been taken and it is possible that sterner action would have been taken.

It is the same all over the world for everyone. As another example, how long did the British Army take to do their recent court martial about abuse in Iraq? would anything have been done if the girl behind the photo processing counter had not released the photos to the media?

pogoń

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Is a few weeks really so long? Nobody knows if they would have carried out the same action if there had been no media/government pressure applied. It is possible that no action would have been taken and it is possible that sterner action would have been taken.

It is the same all over the world for everyone. As another example, how long did the British Army take to do their recent court martial about abuse in Iraq? would anything have been done if the girl behind the photo processing counter had not released the photos to the media?

She didn't hand them to the media, she handed them to the police.

Slutmonkey57b

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Is a few weeks really so long? Nobody knows if they would have carried out the same action if there had been no media/government pressure applied. It is possible that no action would have been taken and it is possible that sterner action would have been taken.

It is the same all over the world for everyone. As another example, how long did the British Army take to do their recent court martial about abuse in Iraq? would anything have been done if the girl behind the photo processing counter had not released the photos to the media?

1) Yes, it is. The details of what the IRA might have done "in other circumstances" are not complicated at all - they would have followed the exact same pattern of every other incident like this over the past 30 years - Denying the incident ever happened, smearing the name of the deceased, intimidating any witnesses, hiding the body and covering up the crime scene. followed by a half-hearted "we're not guilty really it was the British Government that is responsible" statement when they eventually get caught out.

2) The British Army actually has a standard court-martial procedure though. Carried out in an impartial, public manner. Is it perfect? No, but at least it's an *attempt* at being seen to do the right thing.

3) Did the British squaddie threaten the girl behind the counter that he would kill her or kneecap her if she told anyone what she saw? No he didn't. Was she free to go to the police without fear of retribution? Yes she was. That's the crucial difference, isn't it?

Their support doesn't sway me at all, the fact remains that patten reforms have not been delivered in their entirity and since we are on the business of mandates I would like to point out the Irish people ratified the GFA which includes patten.

How many times do we also have to remind you that the Irish people in the same referendum told the IRA to disband?

"Woe is us, we can't disband or give up our weapons, it's all the British Army's fault?"

Cr@p. We've told them what we want them to do, they're not doing it and the only failure in that respect is their own.

BuffyBot

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Is a few weeks really so long?

Long enough, especially for the McCartney family.

Nobody knows if they would have carried out the same action if there had been no media/government pressure applied. It is possible that no action would have been taken and it is possible that sterner action would have been taken.

Why do I get the distinct impression it would have been the former though?

It is the same all over the world for everyone. As another example, how long did the British Army take to do their recent court martial about abuse in Iraq? Would anything have been done if the girl behind the photo processing counter had not released the photos to the media?

I don't think she took 3 weeks to do it? Also three in question went through a legitimate trial though, unlike what goes on within the IRA. You're comparing an orange with an apple and then calling them both pears.

oscarBravo

[ Daith&#237 wrote: »

Funnily enough, the Irish and British armies employ "interrogation" methods that are similar to the IRA's.

Pray tell us more.

[ Daith&#237 wrote: »

And those armies are "legitimate", right?

They're not "legitimate", they're legitimate. They act on the authority of the governments elected by the people of their respective countries. They're answerable for their actions.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I'm begining to think you don't understand the issues at hand at all.

It is reported that the guy who ordered the McCartney murder has not been expelled by the IRA?

Why??

so how can they do that if they end their association with the IRA??

Either way they can't have links to illegal organisations.

Nobody said they(IRA) had a democratic mandate, they do have the substantial support of their communities though.

Their menbership is probably 1 or 2 hundred. (CRIMINAL OFFENCE - by the way)

Opinion polls don't bear this out.

What do you mean by "substantial support"?

[ Daithí ]

oscarBravo wrote:

Pray tell us more.

'fraid I can't. *zip*

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

We can all drag up examples of whoever we want killing children and the perps getting away with it and not even apologising

Do you really think that you can start throwing up links to miscarriages of justice and moral outrage at the deaths of innocents.

The IRA are a terrorist organisation who have murdered, wounded, crippled and tortured for decades.

You can keep throwing up previous "miscarriages of justice" but for ever Nick kelly who's walking free because of a miscarriage of justice theres two jean mc convilles who's family had to wait decades to give her a decent burial and who was convicted and killed by an ira kangroo court, which doesn't have a court of appeal.

IRA apologists can no longer throw past injustices back at us, there's just too many outrages they've commited, and watching them manipulate the death of a small child years ago to justify their agenda is an outrage we the people of this country seem no longer willing to tolerate