3 "expelled" from IRA

Johnny_the_fox

true wrote:

The British army presence in Free West Waterford ? Come off it FTA69.

As for the British army in N. Ireland, they are there solely as a result of the threat to life and property posed by terrorists. If the IRA and INLA had given up their armed struggle and weapons decades ago, there would be no need for a British army presence there now, any more than the need for a British army presence in Scotland, or a US army presence in Hawaii, or an Italian army presence in Sicily.

you forgot about the terrorists that shot catholics..resulting in them being here.. or what happened at a civil rights march in derry (bloody sunday) resulting the formation and support of the ira...

Slutmonkey57b

FTA69 wrote:

And you are simply repeating my statment regarding your blithe attitude to the British Army presence in this country. A Republican could simply revers your argument and criticise the lack of demilitarisation as "wah we can't disarm yet". IRA arms are not the only ones mentioned in the GFA you know.

I'll say this for a third time because a) you obviously didn't bother to read the declaration and b) you need an education.


* The disarmament of the IRA has been demanded by the Irish people who are of the opinion that there is no need for its continued existance and that the search for peace must take place WITHOUT the threat of paramilitary violence

If you disagree with that, or if the "republican community" disagrees with that, then frankly,

TOUGH. Why should we care?

It's our island, our country, our lives, our vote and our opinion that matters. We voted. We spoke. End of discussion. Disarm, and disband already.

By your logic slutmonkey you have no right to comment on issues such as the Famine or WW2 as you weren't born then. Sure, lets just forget history altogether because we weren't around at the time... :rolleyes:

Read my post in the other thread regarding why your age affects your opinion in this matter. For the record, the stupidity of your argument is that the parallell you are attempting to draw between my lack of experience in ww2 and your lack of experience with the IRA is that you are an IRA apologist who likes to make dark hints about how much he knows about things, while in actuality knowing nothing whatsoever. In order for the comparison to stick, I would have to be a time-travelling holocaust denier at the Nuremburg trials.

Yep, they at the same time ratified policing reform and demilitarisation but where is the movement on that?

See the posts above for an expose on that. How much "movement" do we have on IRA decommissioning again? None whatsoever. We have no evidence at all that the IRA has destroyed any significant part of its arsenal, or what proportion that represents. British Army assets, however are all large, public, and easily counted.

Stop trying to twist the truth and accept reality - the only people stopping the IRA decommissioning are themselves and SF, purely because it suits them not to. IRA decommissioning was not tied into "only after x number of army decommissionments" - it is supposed to happen no matter what.

bonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

IFor the record, an example of your stupidity in this argument is

I'd like you to explain how that is not a personal attack.

jc

Lemming

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

or what happened at a civil rights march in derry (bloody sunday) resulting the formation and support of the ira...

Ummmmm .... Johnny? You do know that the P-IRA was formed before Bloody Sunday right?

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

By your logic slutmonkey you have no right to comment on issues such as the Famine or WW2 as you weren't born then. Sure, lets just forget history altogether because we weren't around at the time...

what you are of course conveniently forgetting is that the immediate relatives, mums,Dads,chidren and friends of the victims of IRA and other paramilitary violence are still around.
Thus, its farcical to compare periods from centuries old history with current events and yes because the victims relatives and friends are still alive, it is current.
You of course were in nappies at end of it and didnt exist at the height of it, so combining that with your obvious ideological leanings wouldnt understand...
The people who opposed it were the vast and overwhelming moral majority then and are now.
No point in saying that to you though really is there, as you have shown to be immune to such postings and continue with the outlandish rubbish that you post.
Well as my Father always said We must listen to Thunder...

Your viewpoint though thankfully is as rare and lonely as lightning strikes on the person from said thunder.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

SF and the IRA are not the one organisation, now the media will have you believe they are and so will McDowell but there is no evidence to support these claims. I mean the Taoiseach said there wasn't any hard facts to prove that Adams and co were on the IRA army council, now if the leader of our state doesn't have any facts to prove these accusations I'd like to know how people can be so certain.

Really? So no member of Sinn Fein is a member of the IRA? No member of the party has served time for IRA involvement? That's news to me. Until the IRA doesn't exist any more, you cannot claim that SF and the IRA are two entirely seperate entities. They have the same leadership ffs. Personally, I'm sure Bertie has the evidence necessary to arrest Adams et al but it's in nobody's interest to do so. Even as vocal an anti-SF person like myself can't see any advantage to arresting them.

I honestly believe McDowell is taken this position because he fears for the future of his party, I mean the latest poll shows that the PD's have3% support. Thats 6% less than SF, I'm just glad Bertie has some sense and hasn't supported McDowell's accusations.

Personally, I was listening to the radio interview in question and McDowell sounded far more like someone who was exasperated that political sensibilities were preventing him from doing his job: i.e. ensuring law and order in this country.

SF are working towards peace, they have done more work than any other party to help bring about Peace. Now I will admit that there may be a very small number of SF members who are involved in criminal activity but every party has had members who were, e.g. Lawlor, Burke etc, but SF are trying hard to clean up their party.

Until every bullet has been decommisioned, every psychopath locked up and the propoganda becomes genuine political issues, Sinn Fein won't be a clean party.

People in the Republic like myself don't really know what its like to live in the north so while we can question why the majority of Nationlists have supported SF we have to accept it. I hope that when my kids are studying history for their leaving cert they will be reading of how SF helped broker a deal that brought an end to the IRA and Northern Ireland will be a peaceful and just place.

I'd hope that by the time I have kids in school, the Irish history section of the curriculum will have been corrected to account less of a republican slant on events in the North. I hope the IRA will exist no more and that Sinn Fein will have either developed some real policies and become a proper political party or will have become a completely disregarded far left-wing party akin to the Socialist Worker's Party.

Sinn Fein are here stay and they are commited to bringing peace to this Island

They're not going away you know?

Villain

Sleepy wrote:

Really? So no member of Sinn Fein is a member of the IRA? No member of the party has served time for IRA involvement? That's news to me. Until the IRA doesn't exist any more, you cannot claim that SF and the IRA are two entirely seperate entities. They have the same leadership ffs. Personally, I'm sure Bertie has the evidence necessary to arrest Adams et al but it's in nobody's interest to do so. Even as vocal an anti-SF person like myself can't see any advantage to arresting them.

Woo there cowboy

I never said there wasn't links or that not a single member of SF could still be in the IRA or vice versa, what I said was "SF and the IRA are not the one organisation" and I honestly believe that.

Sleepy wrote:

Personally, I was listening to the radio interview in question and McDowell sounded far more like someone who was exasperated that political sensibilities were preventing him from doing his job: i.e. ensuring law and order in this country.

If he was doing his job Sleepy then Adams, McGuinness and Ferris would have been charged with membership of an illegal organisation, instead of putting his claims before a court and allowing due process he makes accusations through the media.

Sleepy wrote:

Until every bullet has been decommisioned, every psychopath locked up and the propoganda becomes genuine political issues, Sinn Fein won't be a clean party.

I agree Sinn Fein needs to be cleaned up and I hope this happens quickly.

Sleepy wrote:

I'd hope that by the time I have kids in school, the Irish history section of the curriculum will have been corrected to account less of a republican slant on events in the North. I hope the IRA will exist no more and that Sinn Fein will have either developed some real policies and become a proper political party or will have become a completely disregarded far left-wing party akin to the Socialist Worker's Party.

I hope the IRA will not excist either and that the peace process comes to a close so Sinn Fein can develop their policies.

Sleepy wrote:

They're not going away you know?

Oh I know

Johnny_the_fox

Lemming wrote:

Ummmmm .... Johnny? You do know that the P-IRA was formed before Bloody Sunday right?

indeed i do.. formation meaning people joining in large numbers, getting the ira organised etc.

do you think the ira would of had the same support if it wasnt for Bloody Sunday? i doubt it.

Lemming

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

indeed i do.. formation meaning people joining in large numbers, getting the ira organised etc.

do you think the ira would of had the same support if it wasnt for Bloody Sunday? i doubt it.

The P-IRA was formed & organised already. Their numbers simply swelled. And no, they would not have had the support & logistics they had had it not been for Bloody Sunday.

Slutmonkey57b

bonkey wrote:

I'd like you to explain how that is not a personal attack.

jc

Post edited to read "stupidity of your argument"

SpabSFW

http://www.breakingnews.ie/story.asp?j=156497115&p=y5649793x&n=156498001&x=

"Seven members of Sinn Féin have been immediately suspended from the party following allegations that they were involved in the murder of Robert McCartney, party President Gerry Adams said tonight.

Mr Adams said he was informed the seven were immediately suspended after he made inquiries about a list of republicans the McCartney family said were involved in the stabbing and beating of their brother and another man in a bar on January 30.

“As party president I immediately instructed the leadership of Sinn Féin in Belfast to establish if any of those named by the family were members of Sinn Féin,” he said.

“I was informed that seven of those named are members. All were immediately suspended from the party. This is on a without prejudice basis.”

The West Belfast MP said if the seven were found to have been involved in events surrounding the death of the fork lift driver once the case had gone through the proper legal process, the party would take further internal disciplinary action to expel them.

They would also be expelled if they do not provide truthful accounts about what happened, he insisted.

Mr Adams’ warning followed last week’s announcement from the IRA that it had kicked out three members of its organisation following an internal investigation into Mr McCartney’s murder..."

***************************************

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0301/mccartneyr

McCartneys vow to take fight to UK & US

01 March 2005 23:05
The sisters of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney have vowed to take their campaign to bring his killers to justice to Britain and America.


Wow, I didn't realize Bush was present in the bar at the time of the killing. How about if he calls up Blair and tells hiim to find the ones on the McCartney sisters' list guilty without trial, as he did with the Colombia three case when he had their sentence reversed and had declared guilty without a retrial by calling Colombia's president.

****************************************

Commentary from utv:

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=57385&pt=n

On 3 Mar at 12:43 - Realist from The real world said:

With the McCartney sisters now demanding that 12 men they claim are guilty to be "Handed over" are we not moving into them becomming the Judge and Jury? and who has the right to "Hand Over" people, are the 12 men the McCartney's claim are guilty in IRA custody?


On 3 Mar at 13:05 - Nationalist from Upper Ardoyne said:

So exactly what are the McCartney sisters expecting the IRA to do when they say they want the IRA to "Go further"? If the IRA name 12 men will the family be happy?

Good questions. Here's some more: How many of your own rights (such as 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'due process under the law') are you willing to erode for vengeance in this one case and the right to damage Sinn Fein for political gain on behalf of other parties? If you all are so eager for fascism, then why don't you approve of Sinn Fein's alleged fascism?

true

Quote "So exactly what are the McCartney sisters expecting the IRA to do when they say they want the IRA to "Go further"? If the IRA name 12 men will the family be happy?"

They want their brothers killers brought to justice, and rightfully so. The 70 people in in bar know who the killers are : they are afraid to come out as they know what the IRA does to " informers". The community should spit out the entire IRA now.

Slutmonkey57b

SpabSFW wrote:

So exactly what are the McCartney sisters expecting the IRA to do when they say they want the IRA to "Go further"? If the IRA name 12 men will the family be happy?

Good questions. Here's some more: How many of your own rights (such as 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'due process under the law') are you willing to erode for vengeance in this one case and the right to damage Sinn Fein for political gain on behalf of other parties? If you all are so eager for fascism, then why don't you approve of Sinn Fein's alleged fascism?

Oh, that's good. A SF supporter claiming that asking vicious murderers to be tried in a court of law, and witnesses to be allowed to testify, is an attack against SF.

"How DARE those filthy proles question us?"

*tap tap*
The reason the family are outraged is because the right of "due process under law" is being blocked by a political party and a terrorist organisation who told people not to get involved, destroyed the crime scene, prevented the police coming to investigate and denied involvement.

SpabSFW

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Oh, that's good. A SF supporter claiming that asking vicious murderers to be tried in a court of law, and witnesses to be allowed to testify, is an attack against SF.

"How DARE those filthy proles question us?"

*tap tap*
The reason the family are outraged is because the right of "due process under law" is being blocked by a political party and a terrorist organisation who told people not to get involved, destroyed the crime scene, prevented the police coming to investigate and denied involvement.

What does Bush have to do with bringing Irish men in NI to trial?

You don't want a trial; you want a lynching.

Both Sinn Fein and the IRA have made statements that they not only won't interfere with witnesses coming forward, but actually encourage them to. What beyond that would you want done?

As far as I know, nobody is required to confess to a crime even if they are guilty... my understanding is that they are entitled to a proper defense just like anyone else. Are these accused somehow excluded from that right in your opinion and if so why?

What exactly are the McCartney sisters demanding Bush do for them? Is he now planning to be not just the world's policeman, but also judge, jury and maybe executioner? Why anyone would trust a man that unilaterally invaded a country that never attacked the U.S. is beyond me.

Do you want Bush or other Americans to just take over for your criminal justice system and decide all your cases?

What are they/you demanding the IRA do? Sinn Fein?



Other than not interfering with the investigation, I fail to see that anyone not present should be required to do anything. Anything they 'heard around', assuming they did, would be hearsay anyway and not allowed as testimony anyway.

Rock Climber

SpabSFW wrote:

How many of your own rights (such as 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'due process under the law') are you willing to erode for vengeance in this one case and the right to damage Sinn Fein for political gain on behalf of other parties? If you all are so eager for fascism, then why don't you approve of Sinn Fein's alleged fascism?

Oh great a Republican/SF supporter already showing his true colours here without a whiff of subtlety.
Firstly the mcCartneys are looking for justice not vengence.
Secondly thats a lot more than poor Robert McCartney got at the hands of those butchering Republican murderers.

Lemming

SpabSFW wrote:

What does Bush have to do with bringing Irish men in NI to trial?

Please engage your brain before you speak SpabSFW .....

SF/IRA get a very sizeable amount of monetary support from the Irish-American community, who for the most part have romantic fairytale notions as to what is going on.

The McCartney sisters going to the whitehouse has SF rattled for two reasons.

1. Romantic fairytale notions don't survive well when confronted with reality.
2. If Bush listens - and there's no reason why he wont as soon as teh word 'terrorist' is used - he could cut SF/IRA's fundraising in the states overnight.

Oooooooops ......

You don't want a trial; you want a lynching.

Says the SF/IRA apologist. Ho Ho Ho. Cheers for the laugh! You've just brightened my day no end with the irony in that comment.

And no, it's not a lynching they are looking for. Those twelve men know exactly what went on. They were part of it ergo are accessory to the crime.

Both Sinn Fein and the IRA have made statements that they not only won't interfere with witnesses coming forward, but actually encourage them to. What beyond that would you want done?

Ooooo the naievity!!! It's nice to see someone who still retains their childhoo innocence in this day and age.

What more to be done? Ummm .. how about actually naming them and giving that information to the authorities? That'd be a start. A meaningful one instead of the usual platitudes and lip-service.

As far as I know, nobody is required to confess to a crime even if they are guilty... my understanding is that they are entitled to a proper defense just like anyone else. Are these accused somehow excluded from that right in your opinion and if so why?

"Do as I say not as I do" eh? You want the murderers to be given due process, yet see nothign wrong in the fact that they gave McCartney about as much due process as a few inches of sharp metal.

They'll get their due process. But first they need to be handed over and NOT PROTECTED & SHELTERED.

What exactly are the McCartney sisters demanding Bush do for them? Is he now planning to be not just the world's policeman, but also judge, jury and maybe executioner? Why anyone would trust a man that unilaterally invaded a country that never attacked the U.S. is beyond me.

See above.

Do you want Bush or other Americans to just take over for your criminal justice system and decide all your cases?

See above.

What are they/you demanding the IRA do? Sinn Fein?

See above, and add this.

What do we want them to do? How about be decent human f*cking beings for once?

Other than not interfering with the investigation, I fail to see that anyone not present should be required to do anything. Anything they 'heard around', assuming they did, would be hearsay anyway and not allowed as testimony anyway.

Erm .... you do understand the concept of "Accessory" to a crime right? Oh .... that's right. you don't recognise "criminality" don't you?!! :rolleyes:

gandalf

Ok just a quiet word in everyones ear. Please keep it civil. While I understand that this is an emotive topic attackthe post and not the poster.

(btw lo again Spab thought you had deserted us )

Cork

The intimidation is still going on.



Solving this murder is not a difficult one.

There was a clean up, cover up + much intimidation.

But many saw the clean up and murder.

SF needs to show leadership - The suspension of seven Sinn Féin members linked to the murder of Robert McCartney achieved nothing.

Was it meant to improve the dire ratings of Adams?

Why cannot SF encourage people to go to the Gardai or the PSNI?

What is that party doing to stop intimidation?

SpabSFW

gandalf wrote:

Ok just a quiet word in everyones ear. Please keep it civil. While I understand that this is an emotive topic attackthe post and not the poster.

Haha, it wasn't me this time, how's that for a shocker? Not a 'moron' in sight.

gandalf wrote:

(btw lo again Spab thought you had deserted us )

Sure sure...

...you're the one after abandoning everyone :mad:

Busy busy right now, will be back later to address the above and any additional posts.

lomb

hopefully roberts murder will be the end of ira and any credibility sf has in the long term when their own support erodes. looks like its happening as we speak.

so some good may come out of his butchering.

Cork

McGuiness has finally acknowledged that IRA members were involved in the Murder of Robert McCartney.

Where has this guy been living during the past month? Mars?

Passing information about Robert McCartney's murder through solicitors to the police ombudsman will not work.

SF has to encorage people to go to the police.

Villain

Cork wrote:

Passing information about Robert McCartney's murder through solicitors to the police ombudsman will not work.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/story.asp?j=130061855&p=y3xx6z53z&n=130062534&archive=04/03/2005

mycroft

But Irish1 sooner or later those making a statement to the ombudsman will have to make a statement to the police or to the courts.

It's an interium step.

Villain

Yes mycroft and I hope people who have information will give evidence in court, I was simply putting Cork straight.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

The intimidation is still going on.?

but not by the IRA or Sinn Fein

Cork wrote:

Solving this murder is not a difficult one.

There was a clean up, cover up + much intimidation.

But many saw the clean up and murder.

SF needs to show leadership - The suspension of seven Sinn Féin members linked to the murder of Robert McCartney achieved nothing.?

what do you want Sinn Fein to do they have suspended 7 members of the party who were alledgedly in the pub on the night and they have passed the names of the 7 people to the police ombudsman
they have said anyone who has information should come forward and if they feel comfortable in going to the PSNI they should if not they should go to a solicitor or the police ombudsman
adams has said it is the patriotic duty of anyone with information to pass it on and to go to the courts
what more do you want sinn fein to do

Cork wrote:

Why cannot SF encourage people to go to the Gardai or the PSNI??

do you really not know the answer to that question

Cork wrote:

What is that party doing to stop intimidation?

what do you want them to do to stop it send the IRA around to intimidate the people involved

Cork

cdebru wrote:

what do you want them to do to stop it send the IRA around to intimidate the people involved

SF have done precious little but give us waffle.

If they have difficulty with the PSNI then let SF encourage people to go to the Gardai and stop making petty excuses.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

SF have done precious little but give us waffle.

If they have difficulty with the PSNI then let SF encourage people to go to the Gardai and stop making petty excuses.

the gardai dont have any jurisdiction in the six counties going to the police ombudsman seems a far more sensible suggestion

however you still have not made any suggestion as to what you want sinn fein to do

Rock Climber

cdebru wrote:

but not by the IRA or Sinn Fein

uhm-how do you come to that conclusion? Only 3 members of the IRA were expelled, the family say, 12 were involved and well known...
Are you suggesting that intimidation by IRA members and intimidation by the IRA are not the same thing?

Well excuse me if I'm dazzled by your hair splitting...
As I said in the other thread, the rest of the Rah are very quick to do a knee capping on a teenager,I'm sure they could intimidate those that they know to have been responsible for this to tell all to at least the ombudsmans office, instead of the stoney quiet that they are allowing...

cdebru

Rock Climber wrote:

uhm-how do you come to that conclusion? Only 3 members of the IRA were expelled, the family say, 12 were involved and well known...
Are you suggesting that intimidation by IRA members and intimidation by the IRA are not the same thing?

Well excuse me if I'm dazzled by your hair splitting...
As I said in the other thread, the rest of the Rah are very quick to do a knee capping on a teenager,I'm sure they could intimidate those that they know to have been responsible for this to tell all to at least the ombudsmans office, instead of the stoney quiet that they are allowing...

the IRA have expelled 3 members
sinn fein has suspended 7 members
thats 10 people

what i'm saying is that if people are being intimidated then it is not the IRA that is intimidating them

so you are saying that the IRA should intimidate these people into making some kind of admission of guilt
so it is ok for the IRA to intimidate people if you agree with the desired outcome

Rock Climber

cdebru wrote:

so it is ok for the IRA to intimidate people if you agree with the desired outcome

No I'm saying its showing them up, that they will do a minimum face saving exercise in this case because its their own thats involved yet when its anyone else... total hypocrites.
By the way you seem to either know it all(for someone that claims not to be an IRA or Sinn Féin supporter) or are making a lot of assumptions.
Like how do you know but that 3 of the seven Sinn Féin expelled were also the 3 expelled from the IRA?
That would only make up only half the 12, the family say were involved and not ten.
As I say why dont the IRA frog march the whole 12 down to the ombudsmans office??
I'll tell you why again, because they are their own and hypocrites.

The family looked totally uncomfortable and ashen faced at that Ard Fheis,I'll bet it took an awfull lot of pressure to get them there given that only last night they were on Newsnight giving out about the intimidation.