Soton Vs Arsenal (will contain scores)

yop

Good post

case n basket

Excellent post Iago, I agree with most of it (bar Henry).

Assuming there isn't some sort of miraculous turn-around this season I think Wenger will certainly make some major signings next summer. With £30 million available I'd like to see him sell Lauren and Vieira, with 50ish million they could pick up two centrebacks, a goalkeeper, move Toure to right back, give Edu a new contract and bring in a new midfielder. Another forward might also be needed, unless Bentley or Quincy are ready for a regular bench role next September (I believe Bentley is).

Mostly though, a change in attitude is needed. How much I wish Tony Adams was 28 and still at the club . I want the diving and petulence cut out, and more drive and doggedness. Vieira leads by example, but these days he only has the former two attributes.

Seems Henry is crocked for the Sheffield United game too, which leaves a likely line-up of:

.............. Lehmann

Eboue .... Toure .... Cygan .... Cole

Lauren ... Vieira .. Flamini .. Clichy

.......... Ljungberg ... Quincy

With Almunia, Senderos, Fabregas, Larsson and Aliadiere on the bench. Weak.

Oh and on Henry, without him Arsenal would be nowhere this season. He has single handedly won games for Arsenal so many times, and has been the stand out attacking player in the league this season, he has by far the most goals from open play as well as by far the most assists. He was Arsenal's best player in the CL group stages, granted he was quiet against Bayern but he had absolutely no supply and no striker would have played well in that situation. In the prem he managed to score more goals against the meanest defence in the league than any other player and while having relatively quiet games against United he still managed to notch 2 assists. He works his ass off continually for the Gunners and if their over reliance on him means that he sometimes is marked out of games by tighter defences then it's hardly his fault.

jank

Iago wrote:

Van Piersie had a reputation in Holland as a hothead before he ever came to England, as I see it nothing has changed. He's petulant and will cause more problems for Arsenal than he'll solve.

Overall I think it's been amazing that Arsenal have fallen so far so quickly and I think that the blame lies squarely at the feet of 3 men in particular. I'm a united fan and I'm not having a go, just outlining where I think things have gone wrong, we'll start with

Patrick Viera; Club Captian, talisman, midfield enforcer. One of the greatest midfield talents to play in England, or at least he was up until this season. Keane was right in the tunnel at the Utd v Arsenal game "if you were that good you'd be playing for madrid" that's the heart of the problem for Viera right there, his heart isn't in it anymore. He should have gone to madrid when he had the chance and really tested himself, instead he's simply turning up in london and picking up a cheque without actually playing well. There's a real question around his temperment and attitude and I think he's been found wanting in both, as a result an Arsenal team that should be driven by him is instead leaderless and his negative attitude is rubbing off on the rest of the team. If Tony Adams was playing for Arsenal you wouldn't have seen the capitulation in Munich and they wouldn't have dropped points against Southampton, Adams was a leader and an inspiration, Viera simply isn't.

Thierry Henry; On his day there's no player like him, his creativity matched only by his eye for goal. The problem with him is that his day isn't coming often enough to help Arsenal. There is a huge reliance on him and when he's unable to deliver Arsenal really suffer. He's played with injuries for most of the season out of nessecity but as a result has been pretty ineffectual overall, he still has moments of greatness but not nearly as many as last season. Temperament and attitude in the big games is in question as well, too often he doesn't perform when Arsenal need him the most.

Arsene Wenger; Good manager? Yes, good tactician? yes, responsible for Arsenal's downfall? Yes. There are 2 areas where Wenger has really let Arsenal down;

1. Discipline: By not criticising his players and insisting that every decision that goes against them is a mistake by the officials he has set the attitude in Highbury that we can do no wrong. There is no discipline from the manager and no discipline from the players. Tomorrow night they face Sheff United in the FA Cup, their only real chance of silverware and they are without Henry, Campbell, Pires & Edu through injury. That's bad enough without having to play without Bergkamp, Reyes & Van Persie through suspension as well. Arsenal have had 58 players sent off during Wengers time in charge and he will argue the case on practically every one of them. Had he come down hard from the start he wouldn't have to. It's cost Arsenal before and it will cost them again, at some point he needs to wake up to that fact.

2. Style of Play; Arsenal play by far the most attractive football in the premiership, but they are far too narrow. That's fine at Highbury which is one of the narrowest grounds in England, but not so good when they're trying to break down Man Utd or Bayern Munich and their strikers are going around like Vampires, terrified of crosses. They don't have a single player who can score regularly with his head, or even regularly lay the ball off with his head, that's inexcusable, and something that can be worked on at the training ground, so why haven't they?


In saying that Arsenal have been punching above their financial weight for a long time now and have been successful. I think this season should just be written off and start again from next year. Buy 2 centre halves and a new keeper, pick up an old fashioned blood and thunder centre forward if you can and next year could be far more successful

Interesting that you didnt critise any of the defenders or the goalkeepers?!?

Henry isnt to blame at all for anything that goes on this season sure isnt he the leading goal scorer in the premiership?
I think the reason why vieira isnt playing so well is because gilberto has been out for most all of the season and all defensive responsibilities have been left to him. But granted he should have raised his game this season

I think the No1 reason that Arsenal havent played so well is the new stadium which is limiting the chance to buy new players. Hoopefully transfer funds will be recieved for the summer and the club can go from there.

The Muppet

The main reason Arsenal have started to lose is the same reason United did last Year. Their main defender is out injured , Chelsea would suffer the same if Terry was out.

Arsenal problems have been compounded by injuries to other players and diciplineand suspensions is also a factor. Reyes and Adu being unsettled has not helped either. Wenger has to shoulder some of the blame for the diciplinary side of things but he has not become a bad manager overnight. IMO Arsenal are still abetter team than Chelsea, I have yet to see Chelsea blow a team away like Arsenal can. When they have their full defence back they will stop the rot.

eirebhoy

case n basket wrote:

.............. Lehmann

Eboue .... Toure .... Cygan .... Cole

Lauren ... Vieira .. Flamini .. Clichy

.......... Ljungberg ... Quincy

With Almunia, Senderos, Fabregas, Larsson and Aliadiere on the bench. Weak.

Quincy ahead of Almunia? Almunia has 5 times more goals than Quincy in the acadamy this season.

sleepwalker

good post but really i refuse to blame henry for any of this as he sits on top of the premierships top scorers

the problem with henry however though is that when bergkamp is not there he tends to underperform and its up to wenger to stop chopping and changing who starts when bergkamp isnt around. personally i wish he would just stick reyes up there with him and give them an extended run of matches and see how they get on

i agree with the narrow style of play though aand its been suprising in the last few weeks considering how effective cole and laurenc an be overlapping

mr_angry

eirebhoy wrote:

Quincy ahead of Almunia? Almunia has 5 times more goals than Quincy in the acadamy this season.

Almunia is the keeper, but I see what you're getting at. I'd be surprised if Lupoli doesn't play up front in midweek.

To be honest, I completely disagree with Iago's post. The reason why Arsenal have fallen so far so fast is because the same players that won the league last year aren't playing this time around.

1) Sol Campbell's recurring injury - he's been out for ages, and its clear that Pascal Cygan isn't a good enough replacement. Its also clear that Toure isn't that good a defender on his own, and needs a bigger presence to guide him.

2) Gilberto - if I'm not mistaken, Gilberto was the player with the most on-pitch minutes for Arsenal last season. He played the first 2 games of this season before succumbing to a long-term back injury. Instead, we've had a combination of Fabregas, Edu, and Flamini filling the void while he's out. While Fabregas has shown a lot of potential, hes not the finished article yet, and the others haven't set the world alight either. Ironically, I think Arsenal's best midfield pairing this season has been Gilberto & Fabregas - they were playing a stormer at the start of the season when we were demolishing teams.

3) Pires, Vieira, Bergkamp - while these three have been in the team a lot more, they've still been in and out with niggling injuries, and coupled with the rest of the injuries, its caused a problem.

I fail to see how you can blame Henry for anything considering, yet again, he's the Premiership's top-scorer this season. The man has been immense, and I was particularly pleased when during the Reyes-Madrid thing, he came out and said he wanted to stay at Arsenal for life. As a fan, thats exactly the kind of thing you want to hear from your best players.

Looking at the teamsheet for the Sheffield United game, you have to admit that thats a completely different team to last year's champions, and we've been decimated by injuries. The suspensions have been our own fault, but two of them are young players in their first full season at the club - not exactly dependable replacements anyway.

eirebhoy

mr_angry wrote:

Almunia is the keeper, but I see what you're getting at. I'd be surprised if Lupoli doesn't play up front in midweek.

Sorry yeah Lupoli.

Iago

I don't see how anyone can disagree that Viera has been a major cause of Arsenals Problem. I accept the problems with injuries, but then all teams get those so for a large part you have to discount them.

Granted losing Gilberto for a large part of the season is a major blow, but again instead of coming to the fore and lifting the team Viera has been rubbish.


In relation to Henry I suppose my point was twofold, firstly he doesn't play well in the big games. Look at his stats in Europe this season;

Goals Scored 4 Goals in 630 Mins (10th) ~ Most Minutes Played of the top 10 Scorers

Goal Assists 0 in 630 Mins (Not Ranked) ~ More Minutes Played than the top 30 Assist

Shots on Goal 15 ~ With 4 goals returned ~ compare this with Van Nist (8 Goals from 10 shots), Makaay (7 Goals from 16 Shots), Tuncay (5 goals from 13 shots)

Shots Wide 10 from 15 ~ 66% of his shots don't hit the target

Then look at his stats in the premiership, 19 goals granted, including 2 against Chelsea, but he's drawn a blank in 2 games against United, 2 games against Everton, the game at liverpool and against Newcastle. In the big games he just isn't as effective.

Aside from that, and the main point around Henry is not his lack of ability but rather the reliance of Arsenal on him. he has been forced to play this season when he wasn't fully fit because Wenger is terrified to leave him out and hope that the rest of the team can make up the difference. I think Henry is a fantastic player, but I don't think he's having the impact he should be having in the big games. How much of that is attitude and how much of it is lack of match fitness I don't know. Arsenal rely on him far too much though.

With regards to the defence and keeper, yes they have been poor this season, but a lot of that stems from how easily teams are getting through the Arsenal midfield, and this comes back to the situation with Viera. Lets be honest, Cygan & Senderos aren't premiership quality and they are very limited in their ability. Even with Campbell and Toure playing at the back though Arsenal are having problems, it all stems from confidence and protection from the midfield back, it's just not happening for them this year.

Anyway, don't want to get into a flame war or a huge argument, just outlining where I think it's gone wrong.

BaZmO*

Iago wrote:

Then look at his stats in the premiership, 19 goals granted, including 2 against Chelsea, but he's drawn a blank in 2 games against United, 2 games against Everton, the game at liverpool and against Newcastle. In the big games he just isn't as effective

Don't think you can call 2 assists against Utd. and 2 assists against Everton drawing a blank!

Selective stat picking methinks!

B.

Iago

BaZmO* wrote:

Don't think you can call 2 assists against Utd. and 2 assists against Everton drawing a blank!

Selective stat picking methinks!

B.

Not selective stats as such, when I said drawing a blank I meant scoring goals, but I get your point.

Just to reiterate that I believe he's an outstanding player, and I'd love to have him in my team, but I think he goes missing too often when it matters the most.

BaZmO*

Fair enough, but I only brought up the assissts because you used them to show his lack of prowess in Europe but discounted them with regards to his Premiership form. However I do agree with most of what your saying but I just think he comes in for his fair share of undeserved stick.

B.

Jivin Turkey

Definately some selective stat picking. Im not going to get into an argument over Henry being a reason for Arsenal failings this year because he just hasnt been.

Iago wrote:

In relation to Henry I suppose my point was twofold, firstly he doesn't play well in the big games. Look at his stats in Europe this season;

Goals Scored 4 Goals in 630 Mins (10th) ~ Most Minutes Played of the top 10 Scorers

Goal Assists 0 in 630 Mins (Not Ranked) ~ More Minutes Played than the top 30 Assist

Shots on Goal 15 ~ With 4 goals returned ~ compare this with Van Nist (8 Goals from 10 shots), Makaay (7 Goals from 16 Shots), Tuncay (5 goals from 13 shots)

Shots Wide 10 from 15 ~ 66% of his shots don't hit the target

10th in overall goals scored? Well you could also say joint 6th.

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/topscorers.asp?cpid=5

And the % of shots on/off target means nothing. A shot can pee role to the keeper and be on target. You can hit a volley from 40 yards and it go inches wide and be off target.

Iago wrote:

Then look at his stats in the premiership, 19 goals granted, including 2 against Chelsea, but he's drawn a blank in 2 games against United, 2 games against Everton, the game at liverpool and against Newcastle. In the big games he just isn't as effective.

Yes 19 goals. Andy Johnsen aside its almost double what any other player has.

And personally I would have classed the game against Newcastle a "big" game. The likes of Bolton and Middlesboro have been bigger this year, both of whom he has conincidentally scored against. And as has been pointed out, you also failed to mention assists RE premiership games. He has 15+.

The lad wasnt even playing well for the last month or so and his stats are still unreal. I dont think he can come in for any criticism for his performances this year. Even the "big" games (United in particular) when he didnt "show up" he still influenced then with assists.

PHB

The thing about big games is look at teh stats for rooney or van nist or anyones stats in big games, they dont often score as much.
None the less, he doesnt preform in big games, but arsenal havn't lost the season in big games, they've lost it in **** games, and here is where the entire team but henry have fallen down