H Blocks and IRA The Army Council

A Dub in Glasgo

Is it too much to ask that the Bank Robbery is kept to the Bank Robbery thread, the murder of Robert McCartney kept to the Robert McCartney thread, the Jean McConville murder kept to the Jean McConville thread, the IRA as drug dealers to the IRA as drug dealers thread, the IRA decommissioning to the IRA decommissioning thread, the SF ate my cat to the SF ate my cat thread? or does the on-topic charter only apply to a subject that is not discussing an aspect of Irish Republican history?

poneill

cdebru wrote:

I am not tied to any political party if you check back you will see that i criticise the IRA and sinn fein as well

Which is why they tell you nothing which shows.

Never EVER apologise for that of which you know nothing.

Thats my motto !

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

the SF ate my cat to the SF ate my cat thread?

Nice bit of flippantry, of course imply that the accusations are all spurious.

A Dub in Glasgo

mycroft wrote:

Nice bit of flippantry, of course imply that the accusations are all spurious.

You are reading too much into postings on here. It is flippantry but in the sense that there seems to be a new thread for every subject on republicianism. I did not imply that the accusations are spurious. You would love me to though.

Sponge Bob

Other than the Cat it seems all the threads containing an accusation about SF and their Fundraising Arm are deserving of parallel discussion.

A Dub, what do you think the 10 dead hunger strikers would make of the way their legacy has been upheld by the 12 Short Strand IRA men. ?

unme

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

the SF ate my cat to the SF ate my cat thread?

Not sure whether this is amusing you in Glasgow. But there are some serious points being made about the situation here in Ireland.

Your discomfort with the discussion cannot be disguised by invoking a 'charter'. I am happy to hear everyone's views, including yours.

A Dub in Glasgo

unme wrote:

But there are some serious points being made about the situation here in Ireland.

There are and they seem to be made in all the threads all over again.

Your discomfort with the discussion cannot be disguised by invoking a 'charter'. I am happy to hear everyone's views, including yours.

Hang on, I got pulled up by the mods previously for talking about something that was off-topic to the particular thread I was in. I did not make the charter up. I am looking for other views on this topic... is that too much to ask?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sponge Bob wrote:

Other than the Cat it seems all the threads containing an accusation about SF and their Fundraising Arm are deserving of parallel discussion.

Which is why I asked the question of why the 'off-topic' clause does not apply here. this thread is discussing the new 'relevations' about the H Block hunger strikes. There are numerous other threads about all the other subjects

A Dub, what do you think the 10 dead hunger strikers would make of the way their legacy has been upheld by the 12 Short Strand IRA men. ?

I would like to think that they would be appalled

cdebru

poneill wrote:

Which is why they tell you nothing which shows.

Never EVER apologise for that of which you know nothing.

Thats my motto !

what kind of bull**** is that i have not apologised for anything because i have nothing to apologise for

what kind of fantasy land do you live in anyway Poneil my arse what is that supposed to make us think your on the inside track

as i have said if you have nothing constructive to add go away and find someone who might believe how you fought for the republic

Sponge Bob

Thats what I think too , over to Neuromancer now .

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

Really you know that for sure?

Because if they were plotting a massive bank robbery in the middle of those negotiations we're going to have to ask how commited where the IRA to the peace process, and how geniune and complete IRA disarming was going to be?

Fool me once....and er.......em fool me once, and......look if you fooled us you can't fool us again.

see the important word is IF

FTA69

Any newspaper which does not push the provo line is labelled by republicans as "anti-republican".

Not really, I wouldn't describe the Irish Times or Examiner as anti-Republican on the whole. Papers like the Sunday Independent and Sunday Times on the other hand, are.

Oh lets belive Danny Morrison so , if he said it happened. He would be completely unbiased.

And O'Rawe isnt? This is a man who was an IRA Volunteer and remains a Republican, by your logic he is not a credible source either.

currenty a teenager in Free West Waterford ( lol ), ever meet one , let alone a big enough sample of them to allow you draw this conclusion ? Were you even born during the H-block strikes ? No.

Ah yes, I forgot you were in the thick of the conflict.

Did they mention it was not unknown for the IRA to kill, blackmail and intimidate prison officials ?

To clarify myself, my comments are not directed at those in say Cork or Limerick prison, rather the warders in the 6 County jails who have been infamous for the torture, beatings and strip-searches they meeted out on male and female prisoners in Ireland. The prison system was simply another facet of British repression.

true

FTA69 wrote:

Not really, I wouldn't describe the Irish Times or Examiner as anti-Republican on the whole. Papers like the Sunday Independent and Sunday Times on the other hand, are..

Read what I said. I never said " I wouldn't describe the Irish Times or Examiner as anti-Republican on the whole" In fact, I have read many articles in them that are very much pro-Republican / anti-unionist. I gave up buying the Irish times when they started spouting anti-British feeling in the sports columns. I only read it now on rare occassions. The Sunday Independent and Sunday Times are not anti Republican ( in the sense of constitutional politics ), but they are generally anti-IRA , and rightfully so.

Roisin Dubh wrote:

And O'Rawe isnt? This is a man who was an IRA Volunteer and remains a Republican, by your logic he is not a credible source either.
.

I never mentioned O'Rawe. I merely questioned your trust in Danny Morrisons word.

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Ah yes, I forgot you were in the thick of the conflict.
.

Nope, I never said that, but at least I was around and I clearly know more about the subject than the FTA69 teenager in "Free West Waterford", when he made such a sweeping , generalisation.

Roisin Dubh wrote:

To clarify myself, my comments are not directed at those in say Cork or Limerick prison, rather the warders in the 6 County jails who have been infamous for the torture, beatings and strip-searches they meeted out on male and female prisoners in Ireland. The prison system was simply another facet of British repression.

Another sweeping statement. If you want to see real torture and beatings, look at the many dozens of " informers " the IRA and INLA abused. Strip searches had to be used in many prisons around the world in order to prevent stuff being smuggled in to prison. It has been done on loyalists in N. I. , and it has being done in many if not most other countries.

Slutmonkey57b

Final point: The IRA cannot carry out a "poilitical" bank robbery as they should not need to have a use for any funds as they are on "ceasefire".

And it's true, tehre's far too much off- topic guff on this thread. A bit of cross-debate is fine, but this is turning into a mess.

true

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Final point: The IRA cannot carry out a "poilitical" bank robbery as they should not need to have a use for any funds as they are on "ceasefire".

A bank robbery is a bank robbery : there is no such thing as a "political" bank robbery. If you really think they should not need to have a use for any funds as they are on "ceasefire", why did they rob it, and why did they do so many other , smaller scale robberies and smuggling etc over the last few years?

Open your eyes and wake up to the danger of Sinn Fein / IRA.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

And O'Rawe isnt? This is a man who was an IRA Volunteer and remains a Republican, by your logic he is not a credible source either.

So what are you saying there?
That you believe that he is? It's a pretty damning tale he tells but imho, those guys were willing to die for their cause and fair *fcuks* to them for that, it deserves respect even if I profoundly disagree with the logic of why.

mycroft

cdebru wrote:

see the important word is IF

You're not serious? You still believe at the IRA may only have robbed the bank? Despite all the money found?

Hypothetical, if IRA members are found guilty will this change your point of view re decembers negotiations?

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

You're not serious? You still believe at the IRA may only have robbed the bank? Despite all the money found?

Hypothetical, if IRA members are found guilty will this change your point of view re decembers negotiations?

the only person charged in relation to any of this was charged with membership of the real IRA so yes despite all of the money i have yet to see it tied to the PIRA

if anyone acting on behalf of the PIRA was involved then absolutely it would call into question wether they were serious and indeed what they needed the money for if they were about to disarm and stand down

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Final point: The IRA cannot carry out a "poilitical" bank robbery as they should not need to have a use for any funds as they are on "ceasefire".

And it's true, tehre's far too much off- topic guff on this thread. A bit of cross-debate is fine, but this is turning into a mess.

i was not talking about the northern bank being political i was talking pre 1998 and the GFA
if the IRA robbed a bank to fund its armed campaign then that was a political act

true

cdebru wrote:

if the IRA robbed a bank to fund its armed campaign then that was a political act

Everyone knows it did rob the bank.

What was the money for ? To buy more holiday homes for the boys in Donegal ? To buy more shipments of arms ? To help Sinn Fein in the next elections ? To keep a scandal dossier on southern politicians ? To bribe a coup in years to come ? To fund friends in far away Columbia ? Who knows ?

What is a political act? Sinn Fein refuse to title the abduction, torture and murder of Jean McConville as a criminal act , so in their logic how could a bank robbery be a criminal act. Oh it must be a political act so ! Political acts do not involve threats to murder and abduction of bank workers families, cdebru old chap.

FTA69

Read what I said. I never said " I wouldn't describe the Irish Times or Examiner as anti-Republican on the whole"

I never said you did true but again you eagerly take the oppurtunity to hop down my throat. You said that we utterly disregard newspapers that don't "push the provo line", The Irish Times and Irish Examiner by no means push the Provo line at all, but I recognise they are at times papers of merit.

I never mentioned O'Rawe. I merely questioned your trust in Danny Morrisons word.

Morrison's word is what a historian would term a primary source, of course so is O'Rawe's but all the other sources seem to be disagreeing with him.

Nope, I never said that, but at least I was around and I clearly know more about the subject than the FTA69 teenager in "Free West Waterford", when he made such a sweeping , generalisation.

I was around just as much as you were true, in fact more considering I have actually visited areas such as South Armagh and the Short Strand, areas which you have been very keen to comment on with no experience of them. Your labelling of me as some sort of spectator rings as hollow as the rest of your arguments.

Strip searches had to be used in many prisons around the world in order to prevent stuff being smuggled in to prison. It has been done on loyalists in N. I. , and it has being done in many if not most other countries.

Ah yes, savage beatings of unarmed prisoners, forcible washing with burning disinfectant and wire brushes, the upending of excrement on people, the urination in food, the attempts to make prisoners leave their cells naked, the refusal of visits, the bread-and-water punishment diets and the humiliating anal probes was common practice all over the world was it? In Hussein's Iraq or Amin's Uganda maybe.

FTA69

The latest take on O'Rawe's book, I think he is on the backfoot now.

From today's Daily Ireland Opinion.

Former Blanket man slams O’Rawe

Paul McGlinchey (7/03/2005)

I read with deep anger the extract from Richard O’Rawe’s book Blanketmen where he stated that the IRA Army Council acted in a inexcusable manner by using the last six hunger strikers as cannon fodder for election purposes by blocking a deal that would have ended the hunger strike and saved their lives.

As a former blanketman who joined the protest the same month as Kieran Nugent, I can speak with some authority on the protest.
So I ask myself one question: Why is O’Rawe peddling this line on the 24th anniversary of the Hunger Strike and putting the families through this unneeded turmoil and anguish? Especially now when the Irish government, the SDLP and media are trying to reinstigate the criminalisation policy for electoral purposes.

O’Rawe was only a ‘press release officer' and would therefore not have been privy, anymore than the rest of the blanketmen, nor had any more say than us, if a deal was acceptable or not. I can only assume that those years of solitary confinement have affected his memory to the extent he gives himself a role and importance he never had.

O’Rawe has no credibility. Does anyone honestly think that a man who was prepared to swallow his convictions and put on the prison uniform and criminalise himself while his comrades lay dying would be negotiating for us?

Martin Hurson was never in O’Rawe’s wing as he claims in his book.
Martin, from the day and hour he was sentenced until a few weeks before his death, was always on my wing in H Block 5 along with Francis Hughes and Raymond McCreesh who was next door to me.
I stated I could speak with some authority on the Hunger Strike and the facts are these:
On the night the first Hunger Strike ended, Bobby Sands as officer commanding republican prisoners was taken from his cell and escorted around H blocks 3, 4 and 5 at the request and accompanied by Fr Murphy, the then prison chaplain, a chief screw and prison governor to inform us the strike had ended.
This was only a cover for Bobby as we had our own line of communication within the blocks.
It was Bobby’s way of speaking to Francis Hughes, Ray McCreesh and Patsy O’Hara. The only cells Bobby visited in H block 5 that night were Raymond’s and Francis’ who were cell mates and Patsy O’Hara’s.
The plans were laid out that night by Bobby, that failure by the Brits to implement the deal offered that night to end the Hunger Strike would commence in a new one by these four men. Francis Hughes himself, who was a personal friend of mine, later confirmed this to me.

They planned the Hunger Strike that night – not the IRA Army Council. When the new Hunger Strike was announced Bobby as OC laid ground rules which we were all made aware of and supported, inside the prison.
No 1: He appointed Bik McFarland as OC of republican prisoners extracting a promise, against Bik’s own personal wishes, that at no time was he to go on hunger strike but to remain in command until our five demands were met and to liase with the hunger strikers, which he faithfully did.
No 2: He ordered that no one could order the men off Hunger Strike or agree without their input and consent – only the hunger strikers could take themselves off.
Before embarking on hunger strike, Bobby and Francis were sent written commands by the IRA, the written command for Francis was passed to me to pass in through a gap in the heating pipes that ran along the back wall of our cells to give to Francis.
I was unable to do this, as the gap was too tight so I was given permission to open Francis’ command and to read it to him through the gap in the pipes with the instruction to burn it afterwards and to keep the contents secret.

I hope the IRA will forgive me now for disclosing the contents of their command but I feel I owe it to the Hunger Strikers' families and the blanket men to knock O’Rawe's version on the head.
The contents were as follows. The IRA leadership did not agree with the Hunger Strike, so soon after the first one as they felt there would be apathy among grassroots support on the ground outside, that Thatcher’s government would dig their heels in and allow volunteers to die, and that this could be detrimental to the future of the armed struggle and they therefore advised Francis not to go on hunger strike.

That is fact and proof, if needed, that at all times the hunger strikers controlled their destiny – not the IRA as O’Rawe claims.
The very fact these men broke army orders and embarked on hunger strikes showed how courageous and farsighted they were in their thinking that no one must be allowed to criminalise our struggle for justice, peace, equality and freedom and like their comrades in the past right back to the Fenians, who gave their lives rather than criminalise the struggle.
We must honour their memory by ensuring that O’Rawe, the SDLP, the Irish government and the media do not succeed either.
The responsibility for the deaths of the hunger strikers lies with no one but the British government who created the conditions to allow it to happen.

true

Welcome back FTA69, enjoy the conference at the weekend?

FTA69 wrote:

I was around just as much as you were true, in fact more considering I have actually visited areas such as South Armagh and the Short Strand, areas which you have been very keen to comment on with no experience of them. Your labelling of me as some sort of spectator rings as hollow as the rest of your arguments..

When someone suggested "I forgot you were in the thick of the conflict." I replied "No, but at least I was around , not like FTA69"
Were you around during the thick of the conflict FTA69, remembering and observing what went on, considering you are but a teenager now ? Well ?

Ok , you have been to South Armagh and Short Strand , probably since then , and I am sure the big boys there have wound you up, but have you got a balanced view of the problems there ? Have you ever read a newspaper other than your Daily Ireland, An Phoblocht or Irish times, all of which are sympathetic to your cause . Have you ever even met "anyone from the other side " up there, and if so, what did you say to them ?

FTA69 wrote:

Ah yes, savage beatings of unarmed prisoners, forcible washing with burning disinfectant and wire brushes, the upending of excrement on people, the urination in food, the attempts to make prisoners leave their cells naked, the refusal of visits, the bread-and-water punishment diets and the humiliating anal probes was common practice all over the world was it? In Hussein's Iraq or Amin's Uganda maybe.

I thought your prisoners in South Armagh were not allowed to leave any cells, naked or not, ( when they left to be thrown on the side of a road they were sometimes naked in a plastic sheet,and sometimes boobytrapped ) and were not allowed bread and water punishment diet. I thought no food at all was
the ultimate diet, as ordered by the "army council" ?

FTA69

Welcome back FTA69, enjoy the conference at the weekend?

I wasn't there.

observing what went on

Exactly, you were observing and are now remembering. Neither are first hand experience so you are in no way up on me on that front true. I too was observing in my numerous trips to the 6 Counties and I too remember incidents during the conflict as well as listening to the likes of Paul Maxwell's statements on the radio.

Ok , you have been to South Armagh and Short Strand , probably since then , and I am sure the big boys there have wound you up, but have you got a balanced view of the problems there ?

It certainly brought things home so to speak yes.

Have you ever read a newspaper other than your Daily Ireland, An Phoblocht or Irish times

The Irish Times is sympathetic to our cause? Not with writers such as Garret FitzGerald, Kevin Myers, Fintan O'Toole and John Waters it isn't. Of course the Times features Republicans on it too from time to time, it is a balanced paper true whether you like it or not. I also regularly read the Independent, the Economist, National Geographic, Time occasionally and the Irish Examiner. I also have books by Ruth Dudley Edwards, Seán O'Callaghan and Tony Geraghty. To be honest I read everything on the subject (as well as other issues) that I can. Can you say you read An Phoblacht, Vincent Browne or Danny Morrison?

Have you ever even met "anyone from the other side " up there, and if so, what did you say to them ?

I have met with a few northern Unionists and have talked with many on the internet. I put my points forward the same as I would when discussing something with any other people.

I thought no food at all was
the ultimate diet, as ordered by the "army council" ?

The Army Council opposed the Hunger Strike initially true, I thought you "knew about the subject"?

true

FTA69 wrote:

I wasn't there.

Are you sure you did not watch it at some stage ? Thought I saw you in the audience !

FTA69 wrote:

Exactly, you were observing and are now remembering. Neither are first hand experience so you are in no way up on me on that front true. I too was observing in my numerous trips to the 6 Counties and I too remember incidents during the conflict as well as listening to the likes of Paul Maxwell's statements on the radio.

No, I wrote " When someone suggested "I forgot you were in the thick of the conflict." I replied "No, but at least I was around , not like FTA69"
Were you around during the thick of the conflict FTA69, remembering and observing what went on, considering you are but a teenager now ? Well ?"
I did not say I was observing and now remembering. I have been up north hundreds if not thousands of times in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties etc. Now FTA69, in an earlier, different post I think you said your age is something like 17. You were hardly of an age to grasp the realities of the situation in N. Ireland "in the thick of the conflict" ie before the ceasefires, were you. ( Are you now , if you describe yourself as being from "Free West Waterford "? )

FTA69 wrote:

It certainly brought things home so to speak yes.

But did you go outside these areas to see the broader picture?

FTA69 wrote:

The Irish Times is sympathetic to our cause? Not with writers such as Garret FitzGerald, Kevin Myers, Fintan O'Toole and John Waters it isn't. Of course the Times features Republicans on it too from time to time, it is a balanced paper true whether you like it or not.

It is not as balanced as you may think. Virtually all contributers are nationalists of one shade or another, and its editorial is always slanting towards that point of view also. There is nothing wrong with that, that is where the vast bulk of their readership comes from too. However, do not think any newspaper is perfectly " balanced. "

FTA69 wrote:

Can you say you read An Phoblacht, Vincent Browne or Danny Morrison?

Yes, not very often but now and again. And I often read the Sunday Business Post, another nationalist publication.

FTA69 wrote:

I have met with a few northern Unionists and have talked with many on the internet. I put my points forward the same as I would when discussing something with any other people.

Fair enough. Not that many people from "Free West Waterford" have met a few northern Unionists. Did they accept your views, or did you accept theirs ?

FTA69 wrote:

The Army Council opposed the Hunger Strike initially true, I thought you "knew about the subject"?

Nobody , certainly not me, mention what the "army council" opposed or did not oppose initially. Why do you accuse me of "not knowing about the subject". At least I was a live witness to goings on then, not like you.
What I said was "I thought no food at all was the ultimate diet, as ordered by the "army council" ?" : I saoid this in the context of your diet comments.

pogoń

FTA69 wrote:

I have met with a few northern Unionists and have talked with many on the internet.

And did you gain their respect?

FTA69

I did not say I was observing and now remembering.

I never said you said it, I said that because that is what you are doing.

You were hardly of an age to grasp the realities of the situation in N. Ireland "in the thick of the conflict" ie before the ceasefires, were you.

Not at that age no I wasn't, but I most certainly am now. As I pointed out, you have noe experience of the conflict either so we are both in the same boat so to speak. You've been to the 6 Counties? Great, so have I. Often.

But did you go outside these areas to see the broader picture?

I was in some Unionist parts of Co Down yes eg Bangor and Portavogie.

It is not as balanced as you may think. Virtually all contributers are nationalists of one shade or another, and its editorial is always slanting towards that point of view also.

Nationalists like Kevin Myers and Garret Fitzgerald. Have you recently seen the editorials slating the Republican Movement?

Yes, not very often but now and again. And I often read the Sunday Business Post, another nationalist publication.

I would agree that would be that way inclined.

Fair enough. Not that many people from "Free West Waterford" have met a few northern Unionists. Did they accept your views, or did you accept theirs ?

Few discussions result in people accepting each others views, in the long exchanges we've had have you once come around to my position? Or I to yours? I doubt it, no there was no agreement but it is possible to have civil discussions.

At least I was a live witness to goings on then

No you weren't, you were an observer from the south.

I saoid this in the context of your diet comments.

I thought this was a jab at your comments regarding the Hunger Strikes.