Were they watching the same match???

zod

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/rugby/articles/16924952

"In truth, Robinson should have been talking about an England win in the gathering gloom in Dublin yesterday after two refereeing decisions by South African Jonathan Kaplan conspired to help Ireland stay on course for a first Grand Slam since 1948 with a 19-13 victory at Lansdowne Road."




http://sport.guardian.co.uk/sixnations2005/story/0,15694,1426946,00.html

" Ireland go on to win their first grand slam since 1948, they will owe no small debt to the South African referee Jonathan Kaplan, whose bizarre performance yesterday went as far to denying England a deserved victory as the defiant defenders in green.
England had twice as much of the ball as Ireland, but two contentious decisions by Kaplan cost the World Cup holders tries at the end of each half. "



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2005/02/28/srirel28.xml

"England were deprived of what would have been a notable victory by one of the worst refereeing performances seen on the international stage since another South African official caused English blood pressure to rise in the World Cup final. "That was the most incompetent display of refereeing I've ever seen at this level,'' was the stunned verdict of one former distinguished international referee"



http://sport.independent.co.uk/rugby_union/story.jsp?story=615376

"To be sure, there'll be a couple of pints for the ref in O'Donohue's," said one of the Irish ancients in the old west stand as the dust settled on a mean, moody, muscle-bound contest wholly dominated by the two forward packs. "He'll do better than that," said his colleague. "They'll give him the honeymoon suite in the Berkeley Court Hotel."

Villain

No mention of O'Gara being taken out of the game for Englands try!!!

BolBill

irish1 wrote:

No mention of O'Gara being taken out of the game for Englands try!!!

of course not, and it wasn't just O'Gara, Johnny O'Concrete was too.

thejollyrodger

HAHAHA Classic English reporting If the shoe was on the other foot they wouldnt be shy to point out the man handling of O Gara. This is the same media that last year were saying that the 6 Nations as a competition was dead

Sore Loosers !!

The ref was very fair if all was taken into account.

Hairy Homer

http://sport.independent.co.uk/rugby_union/story.jsp?story=615376

"To be sure, there'll be a couple of pints for the ref in O'Donohue's," said one of the Irish ancients in the old west stand

To be sure???? To be ****ing sure???? When was the last time any of you EVER heard anyone in Ireland say 'To be sure'?

'Ah sure' ....yes maybe but 'To be sure...' that went out in the 19th Century along with 'Faith and Begorrah'

Cor Blimey Love a duck governor. Them there cockney's don't half talk funny, innit.

Eh Bah Gum. Ah'll go to t'bottom of our stairs.

MG

No doubt the ref had a poor game but it was far from the decisive factor in the match. To focus on the "tries" first:

The Ceuto "try" may have been okay but no decisive angle was shown to prove it was a try. The Ref had a good view and his word is at least as good as Andy Robinsons who thought it was a definite try. I don't know how he can say that as the best possible angle to view it was from where the ref was standing not where he was.

On the Lewsey effort, I didn't see the ball grounded on the replay but I think I heard others say it was. I think Kaplan should have gone to the video ref for that alright but would he have given it?

Of course, if England expect those tries then they would have to take back their actual score where O'Gara and maybe one other player was taken out. Doing the maths on this basis, Hodgson would have had to slot his two conversions. Odds on that at difficult angles (esp Ceutos try)?

Okay, tries change matches too but that is going so far into the realms of speculation that it can be argued either way.

On the refs general performance, I thought he was fairly poor. Although, he maintained his authority throughout, he made some poor decisions. Two areas that stick out are knock ons/foward passes and on one occasion where I felt an Irish rolling maul was hauled down illegally, he gave a scrum to England.

Robinsons comments were a drowning man clutching at straws. He should know that had England shown leadership, guile or creativity in the backs they could easily have won. The loss was his failure, not the refs. As it was Ireland were content to soak up pressure. I have never rated Robinson. He is a Sargeant Major. How many Sargeant Majors become generals?

Washout

Playing devils advocate for a second, on the second disallowed try the least england deserved was a 5 meter scrum as they did cross the line with the ball.
Iit would have given them the oppurtunity for another good attacking position.

Instead ireland got to clear their line for the win. (which of course im grateful for).

also on the point of refereeing isnt it great to see no players encrouching a refree like what happens in all soccer matches.

davej

I think a lot of this "controversy" is being drummed up by Andy Robinson in an effort to distract from the fact that he's overseen the worst England run since the 80s.

davej

Sherifu

Robinson sucks tbh.
I wasnt at all convinced he knew what the hell he was doing by his interviews.
If I was an english rugby supporter id be worried.

The pitch is that way is it? oh........
We're playing in white is it?

Eoin

Playing devils advocate for a second, on the second disallowed try the least england deserved was a 5 meter scrum as they did cross the line with the ball.
Iit would have given them the oppurtunity for another good attacking position.

Instead ireland got to clear their line for the win. (which of course im grateful for

I know - I didn't really understand why we got the scrum for that, at the very least I would have thought the ball was held up over the line - so a 5 metre scrum for Engerland?

The Ceuto non-try was called back immediately - well before he grounded the ball. The ref obviously had no doubt at all that he was offside.

MG

Interesting law discussion from Planet rugby

From reading this, it seems that there is a fair liklihood that the ref was right in all three controversial decisions

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/News/story_41887.shtml

I still think the first English try should not have been given and that the Cueto one can't be judged from the current TV pics.

However, the Lewsey try seems well explained and assuming Planet rugby have studied the tape carefully, the ref may have been correct.

Eoin

excellent stuff MG - that kind of stuff PlanetRugby does very well...

I didn't think there were any problems with the Corrie try as well - O'Gara was definitely close enough to the ruck to be cleaned out (and boy, was he cleaned out), and it was a fair try. If we had scored that way, no doubt the English would be up in arms...

thejollyrodger

good article. I think the Ingerland coach is trying to distract the attention from THREE STRAIGHT DEFEATS in their six nations. We won fair and square if all is taking into account.

Talk about sore loosers, I knew that "well done lads you were the better team (by C.W) at Twikenman" last year was too good to be true.

damnyanks

I had the pleasure of watching it on the BBC (We don't get RTE here) and the attitude was quite annoying. As far as the commentaters were concerned the english try was illegal but there attitude was along the lines of "Oh well tough titties".

When the english got called on something that seemed legal they were going crazy. It just irritates the hell out of me. The lady friend is convinced I'm anti-english

Bard

Why does it seem so impossible for 'English fans' or 'English media' and 'gracious in defeat' or 'fair and unbiased' to feature more often in the same sentences?

cruiserweight

thejollyrodger wrote:

THREE STRAIGHT DEFEATS

Four straight six nations defeats if you include last years tournament

Eoin

I just read that this moves us up the world rankings again - we are now at #4:

from eircom.net news:

Ireland moved back up to fourth, their highest position since November 2003, and they are closing in on third-placed South Africa. England, meanwhile, remain sixth, one spot below France and one above Wales.

Trojan

The bias in commentary on all broadcasters/formats is getting annoying.

Looking at the figures, if we beat France by >=15 we definitely move to 3rd above SA, if we beat them by less then it's very tight (we might just take it by 0.03 points in the ranking scheme). And if we lose then Les Bleus move back above us.

Eoin

Trojan wrote:

The bias in commentary on all broadcasters/formats is getting annoying.

Looking at the figures, if we beat France by >=15 we definitely move to 3rd above SA, if we beat them by less then it's very tight (we might just take it by 0.03 points in the ranking scheme). And if we lose then Les Bleus move back above us.

Sometimes the commentators aren't too bad - the Scottish guys on Saturday were obviously biased, but they could laugh about how the match was. It's when the English guys do it, and they think that it is their birthright to beat their backwards neighbours that really pìsses me off...

if we beat France by >=15

could be quite a lot to hope for - I will take a 1 point margin!

[Jackass]

Just sit back and enjoy it...this is why i love it when we beat the English! haha, such sore losers..te first "disallowed try" was a mile offside, the second "disallowed try" was held up , and driven back over the line, then england failed to recylce the ball, Ireland were the last to be going forward, scrum Ireland. Two excelent decisions, well played ref. If O'gara had taken the 2 peno's and drop goal he missed and should have got, and Englands try was disallowed (which it should have been peno to Ireland for Obstruction, and off side, Johhny O'Connor literally dragged to the touchline from the irish side by an english player) the score would have been 28 - 6 . England took every chance they got. It doesn't matter how much ball they had, tey couldn't use it and the 19 - 13 scoreline flatters them.

[edit] Did anyone see guscotts face on the bbc after the game? rofl, i love it, and hate that guy, i remember his patronising laugh when it was suggested to him England could lose their first 3 games in the 6N this year in a preview programme of the 6N...now that its happend, i think the only funny thing is England hae a wooden spoon showdown with Italy next week

Nukem

Watched the Rugby club on BBC last night with Austin Healy and i have never seen someone make up so many excuses in my life "The try was good Corry try was legit" "Cueto wasnt offside..blah.....blah,........."ha ha
we won. ye lost - your bald, now f*ck off.
The ref was a bit all over the place i admit (as he was when he reffed Munster last week) but he was equally adverse to both teams.

Robinson finally found out for the cr*p player and Captain he is.Andy Robinson was found out that he hasnt a clue(Clive was in the stands with a wry smile-and so he should)
Corry should be Captain for England and will make the Lions. Mike Ford take a bow - his work in the last few years are really starting to show.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

MG

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Agreed but one emminent radio personality (well...Matt Cooper) said he was sitting right in line and Cueto was definitely offside. Whatever the truth, it was one of those which can go for you or against you.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Can you clarify the rule on this for me. If they were held up over the line fair enough but if they are driven back into play and then the ball is not recycled, do the ordinary rules apply?

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

There is an argument that O'Gara was fairly rucked (though I don't subscribe to it myself) but watch Johnny O'Connor on the other side of the ruck. He is clearly held back with an arm around him. He even turns to the ref to protest about it. It appears as if John Hayes realises that he is being held and makes an effort to come around to defend the ruck but is too late.

The Rooster

Saw the pushover "try" again last night, and it does look like the ref got it right. The ref was in the perfect position to see if the ball was grounded. And it wasnt just held up, the Irish pushed them back - or rather Johnny O'Connor practically on his own pushed the English back. It didnt collpse until it was back "in play" and as Ireland were going forward the correct decision was Irish scrum. Yes, we were a bit lucky that the ref didnt blow up prematurely when the ball was over the try-line and give England the 5 metre scrum, but the main reason we were awarded that scrum was brilliance by O'Concrete.

As for the Cueto "try", nobody who watched the game on TV can tell whether it was offside or not. But the ref was in a decent position, and he blew the whistle as soon as the ball left the boot of Hodgson.

Corry's try was a marginal decision that could have gone either way - but it proves that Kaplan wasnt biased.

Nukem

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

He wasnt held up over the line - he dived and JOC pushed him clean back over the line. Ref got it very right in that count. JOC had a slap at Robinson yesterday in the Examiner saying he pushed him off the ball and he was no where near getting a try and the that saying it was a try was rubbish.

Downtime

I have one query - in Lansdowne there is two pigeons nests (or whatever you call them) on the West Stand at both 22's that they use for the soccer - why can't they use them for the rugby - then we'd have the answer we need.

Trojan

Pigeons nests? If you're referring to the camera area, yes they were in use on Sunday. I was (stewarding) at West Upper B/C and was right above the cameraman there (also had a perfect view of O'Driscoll's dancing along the touch - lovely stuff

I wasn't sure what happened for the Cueto try unfortunately

Downtime

Trojan wrote:

I wasn't sure what happened for the Cueto try unfortunately

Cameraman must have been on a tea break.

Lennoxschips

Now they are filing a complaint with the IRB and saying that O'Driscoll's try was invalid as well.

I hope Italy thump them.

Hugh_C

Lennoxschips wrote:

Now they are filing a complaint with the IRB and saying that O'Driscoll's try was invalid as well.

I hope Italy thump them.

I watched it on tape again last night and (given my understanding of the rules) it could be argued that Horgan was offside and (possibly) impeding an English defender.

That said, the English got away with a few similar infringements - Murphy was tackled out of an attack without the ball (the one where BOD was stopped short of the line with Foley in support, 2nd half) etc etc. So maybe these things balance out?

hc