British Army/Government Accountability in Ireland?

A Dub in Glasgo

Peter McBride

I remember the murder well, I remember the campaign here in Scotland to get the murderers out and try and reverse the conviction as it was only an Irishman who they killed and their soldiers were 'good lads' in a 'difficult' situation. I remember the disbelief (of some people) and the jubilation (of some people) when the British Government decided that these convicted murderers should stay in the British Army (to continue with their crimes?). I remember the brave fight of Jean McBride to try and get some kind of answer to the question 'Why are the British Government rewarding murderers?

It is certainly an insult to the family of Peter McBride that their son's life apparantly does not matter.

Were the British Army/Government really accountable for their own actions during the 'troubles'? I think not.

British Army continues to insult Mc Bride family


In Belfast on 4th September 1992 the British Army stopped 18-year-old father of two Peter McBride. An identity check showed that he was not wanted and a body search found him unarmed. Peter McBride panicked and ran away from the soldiers. Scots Guardsmen Mark Wright and James Fisher chased him, shot him in the back and killed him.

In February 1995 the two soldiers were convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. Both guardsmen remained in the army even while in jail. In September 1998 they were released from prison under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

On 3rd November 1998 an Army Board, including General Mike Jackson (of Bloody Sunday notoriety) and John Spellar (current Northern Ireland Minister who is responsible for human rights) decided they could continue to serve in the army under an “exceptional reasons” clause. This was justified by the Army Board coming to the conclusion that the Scots Guardsmen had committed an “error of judgement”.

The family are currently awaiting judgement in the latest legal challenge which is aimed at forcing the MoD to dismiss the soldiers. Two courts have ruled that the MoD had no legal justification for retention of the soldiers.

Jean Mc Bride, the mother of murdered Belfast teenager Peter Mc Bride, has released the following statement:

"Our family has watched events unfold over the past week as three soldiers were prosecuted and found guilty of the humilation and abuse of civilians in Basra, Iraq in 2003. General Mike Jackson has apologised to the Iraqi people and said that the actions of these soldiers has brought shame on the British Army. Most people would agree and our family. more than most welcomes the fact that these soldiers have been thrown out of the armed forces. They were dismissed within hours of sentencing, since according to the court they had 'disgraced' the army.

"The soldiers who murdered my son have been allowed to remain in the British Army. Peter was not suspended from the prongs of a forklift truck nor was he forced to stimulate sexual acts. Instead he was shot in the back in broad daylight in a North Belfast street and then finished off as he tried to pull himself up. According to a court of law two Scots Guards, Mark Wright and James Fisher, were guilty of murdering my son. They knew that Peter was unarmed and was no threat to them. But despite their convictions the Ministry of Defence has allowed both convicted murderers to stay on in the army. General Mike Jackson sat on the Army Board that made this decision as did John Spellar MP. Now, finally, I understand why. According to this government the two soldiers who shot my son in the back did not bring 'disgrace' on the army. What other explanation is there?

"Guardsmen Wright and Fisher were stationed in Basra in May 2003 when the humiliation and torture of civilian prisoners took place. I said at the time and I repeat it today: What message did that send to other soldiers in Iraq when they found themselves serving alongside convicted murderers?

"Maybe Geoff Hoon MP can explain why the humiliation of prisoners warrants immediate dismissal from his armed forces while the murder of an unarmed 18 year boy does not? One of those convicted of murdering Peter has since been promoted. While I have a breadth left in my body I'll fight to have these soldiers dismissed."

http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/latestnews.htm

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=57254&pt=n

pogoń

Very topical.

I mean real up to the date stuff this .....................

The McBride killing occurred in 1992, and was the last fatality caused by any member of the British security services to a Catholic in Northern Ireland.

Since when Republicans (largely on ceasefire) have been responsible for over 100 deaths.

shltter

pogo&#324 wrote:

Very topical.

I mean real up to the date stuff this .....................

The McBride killing occurred in 1992, and was the last fatality caused by any member of the British security services to a Catholic in Northern Ireland.
.

who killed Aidan McAnespie in 1988

sean downes in 1984

karen oreilly 1990

pogoń

Next time how about you just address the topic rather than being immature - Gandalf.

Your other posts deleted.

shltter

i can name more

Tuesday 15 January 1985
Paul Kelly (17), a Catholic civilian, was shot dead by the Ulster Defence Regiment


Sunday 18 February 1986
Francis Bradley (20), a Catholic civilian, was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at the back of a farmhouse, near Toome, County Derry


thomas reilly august 1983

pogoń

From CAIN web-site:

IRA killed 2,157 lost 397
British Army killed 301 lost 503
UDR killed 8 lost 206
RUC (boo hiss evil sectarian bastards) killed 50 lost 303

The IRA killed more Catholics than any other armed group.

More members of the IRA were killed by other members of the IRA than by the British army.

Regarding collusion more Republicans were assassinated by Republicans than loyalists.

I think this puts all the killings in the proper perspective.

What a stupid bloody waste.

Undefeated 'army' my arse.

Is there anything in these figures to be proud of?

pogoń

shltter wrote:

so you dont have an answer you said peter mcbride was the last catholic killed by british security services

And so he was.

i have named three more after that date

All the people you have named were killed before that date.

A Dub in Glasgo

pogo&#324 wrote:

Very topical.

I mean real up to the date stuff this .....................

It is very topical.... Peter McBrides mother issued a statement yesterday (yes that is the 28th February 2005) asking the British Army why her sons muderers are are still in the payroll of the British taxpayer when the 3 guys convicted of the recent charges of abuse in Iraq have all been kicked out of the British Army.

Did you even bother to read the piece?

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is very topical.... Peter McBrides mother issued a statement yesterday (yes that is the 28th February 2005) asking the British Army why her sons muderers are are still in the payroll of the British taxpayer when the 3 guys convicted of the recent charges of abuse in Iraq have all been kicked out of the British Army.

It's not right that they are.
I'd hazzard a guess and for want of a better way of putting it, it's séxy at the moment to have strong views against what is the occupation of Iraq and what was the Iraq war. British people won't stand for their army being involved in war crimes out there and the tabloids know this so are willing to run with stories about it.
It's current too which helps.
They have an extreme disinterest in events of 20 yrs ago or 10 years ago in Northern Ireland.
If there was another Karen O' Reilly or Peter McBride, in NI today though, I suspect that it would be different and there would be moral outrage.
Peter McBrides mother was right to issue a statement and look for answers but tiz unlikely to get a response unless the public is morally outraged by it and the chances are as I say at this stage they are disinterested unless its in the here and now that it happened.

Its a symptom of changing times really-Go back 20 or 30 years in Ireland and theres a lot of things that would provoke anger then that wouldnt bat an eyelid now and vice versa.

ionapaul

Another reason for lack of interest or concern may be the way in which the campaign for justice is being run - Dub in Glasgow might elaborate here, as I have no idea. The British authorities, and the British army in particular, might find it galling to be lectured by the 'usual suspects' of SF and other anti-British army organisations (troops out movement?) on their sins and their obligations. This shouldn't necessarily weaken the calls for justice, but in reality it does - we can see the same with regard to the 'Bring the Bird-Watchers Home' campaign, if SF are leading the charge most of the rest of us switch off.

I would like to see the British army deal with this issue and remove the men immediately.

A Dub in Glasgo

ionapaul wrote:

Another reason for lack of interest or concern may be the way in which the campaign for justice is being run - Dub in Glasgow might elaborate here, as I have no idea. The British authorities, and the British army in particular, might find it galling to be lectured by the 'usual suspects' of SF and other anti-British army organisations (troops out movement?) on their sins and their obligations. This shouldn't necessarily weaken the calls for justice, but in reality it does - we can see the same with regard to the 'Bring the Bird-Watchers Home' campaign, if SF are leading the charge most of the rest of us switch off.

I would like to see the British army deal with this issue and remove the men immediately.

AFAIK, the campaign is being run by the McBride family. The TOM wesite just carried the statement from Jean McBride and provided a bit of backround detail.

FTA69

pogo&#324 wrote:

More members of the IRA were killed by other members of the IRA than by the British army.

Absolute rubbish, even including the number of people shot dead as touts.

true

pogo&#324 wrote:

From CAIN web-site:

IRA killed 2,157 lost 397
British Army killed 301 lost 503
UDR killed 8 lost 206
RUC (boo hiss evil sectarian bastards) killed 50 lost 303

The IRA killed more Catholics than any other armed group.

More members of the IRA were killed by other members of the IRA than by the British army.

Regarding collusion more Republicans were assassinated by Republicans than loyalists.

I think this puts all the killings in the proper perspective.

What a stupid bloody waste.

Undefeated 'army' my arse.

Is there anything in these figures to be proud of?

Good post. As usual the shinners / provo groupies will deny it.

pogoń

FTA 69:

Absolute rubbish etc

(Referring to the fact that the IRA killed more members of the IRA than the British Army).

According to the Sutton Index of deaths:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/book/index.html

The British Army killed 123 members of the IRA.

This may be compared with the 103 members of the IRA who rather sadly and unfortunately blew themselves to smithereens, and the 63 who after the customary torture involuntarily became one of those cross-border bodies SF/IRA are so keen to promote. (I'm talking about touts here).

That makes a total of 166.

These figures do not include members of the IRA who shot each other by accident or design.

Neither do they include those whose thirst for victimhood was so great that they pointlessly starved themselves to death.

FTA, you would appear to be mistaken about a great many things.

I think I'll make a list to refresh your memory.

Roisin Dubh

I share the outrage of many that convicted murderers were reinstalled in their positions in the British Army.

The justifications given by the apologists for Wright and Fisher would have some weight were it not for the fact that the British Government opposes letting former terrorists from the IRA etc. join the PSNI.

Not that I think they should let them join the PSNI (I don't). It's just hypocrisy is what I am saying.

If the Tories win the General Election we will probably see a lot more instances like this, and the abolition of the Parades Commission (which they have joined with Unionists in Westminister in criticising), which could return us to the bad 'ol days when fascist feet and banners trampled with jackboots on the rights of Irish Nationalists.

Let's hope it doesn't happen, and that Blaie throws out Wright and Fisher, as the terrorists they are.

Slutmonkey57b

Well well isn't this interesting.

I wonder why the apologists have dug up this particular issue.

Perhaps because they've been caught out on the McCarthy/Northern Bank/Columbia 3/3 little piggies in a van stories and are now looking for a cheap own goal to justify themselves.

"Ignore all that other stuff! WE'RE the victims here! WE ARE!!"

I said it in the other thread - you're not going to get much of a debate on a topic like this because there aren't any morons on the opposite side of the fence to you who are going to swear blind that the above didn't happen. We know what happened. And again, while justice may not be served (yet) the "evil killers" aren't currently threatening the family of their victim, are they? No.

pwd

Any attempt to compare a highly trained peacekeeping force with a group of murderers and organised criminals is pointless.

The British Army is supposed to conform to high moral standards. Soldiers are dismissed for using drugs. A major was dismissed for cheating on Who wants to be a millionaire. Reinstating these soldiers is a massive error of judgement.

The criminal court did not believe their testimony of believing the victim was carrying a coffee jar bomb. The Army did believe it.

At the risk of sounding naieve, would it not be possible to just not send the sort of soldiers who are into the Orange Order and that sort of thing to Northern Ireland at all? I know that Irish soldiers in the british army can ask not to be sent to Northern Ireland, so this sort of thing is not out of the question.

A Dub in Glasgo

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Well well isn't this interesting.

I wonder why the apologists have dug up this particular issue.

Just like pogoń, you appear not to have read any of the posts that actually deal with the issue of this thread otherwise you would know why this 'issue was dug up'. As per usual anybody highlighting an abuse of human rights, a murder, an insult to some family by the British state is immediately 'shot' down as an apologist!!

You can choose to ignore the fact that the British Government appear to have a 2 (or maybe 3) tier of moral outrage when their soldiers commit crimes. This is just one instance of that fact.

Rock Climber

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You can choose to ignore the fact that the British Government appear to have a 2 (or maybe 3) tier of moral outrage when their soldiers commit crimes. This is just one instance of that fact.

surely its, the British public and the media that have the 3 tier moral outrage?
Their government is only there at their behest and reacts likewise.

A Dub in Glasgo

Rock Climber wrote:

surely its, the British public and the media that have the 3 tier moral outrage?
Their government is only there at their behest and reacts likewise.

Quite possibily although Governments are there to lead and not necessarily be led.

Rock Climber

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Quite possibily although Governments are there to lead and not necessarily be led.

I'd say quite probably not just possibly.

Horeb

As a former Solider in both the Irish and British army 9 Years between both.

I am in favour of the Guardsmen being reinstated into the Army.

Why, they made a mistake, we all have maybe not fatal but it was an error in judgement.

The lad ran away from a Patrol, scared or not that is a very dangerous thing to do at that time, while he was not a member of any organisation, how did the men who fired not know he was trying to draw them into an ambush etc etc.

I feel sorry for the family of course but also the soldiers as they have to live with this, put should not be punished all there life for this, they did time in prison and were given a second chance.

Look at the annabells killers they are barely doing any time for a savage murder of a young lad. Maybe not the exact same but is an example they most likely will get nice big jobs and be forgotten about.

In the terms of justice Life is not life these days anyhow.

The Soldiers deserve a second chance as what good is having men tarnished for the rest of there life.

What difference also are they from the brutal murders on both sides being released under this agreement, they are tame compared to the likes of Adair etc.

And as for numbers of people dead each like the Provo's scored x amount and the Brits the other, well it does'nt matter.

Any dead is wrong but this happens.

And when being a soldier and in the heat of the moment you act accordingly weither it correct or not. We all can comment in any form or manner as we were not there.

A soldier has to be lucky every day the terrorist or thug has only to be lucky once.

A Dub in Glasgo

Horeb wrote:

---

You missed one tiny little fact.... the justice system did not believe them and they did not believe they made a mistake therefore they were convicted of MURDER

In other words, they knew he was no threat to them and they killed him by shooting him in the back anyway!

Horeb

The Justice System can be wrong...

As I said before I would stand by them, why as they made a mistake.

Have you been in that posistion ever as I have and it is not easy.

Don't be to quick to make judgements unless you have experience of such matters..

Most people here read a lot but actually never have been in the area's mentioned or ever saw the raw side of it..

You have your opinions and are entitled to them as I am and we all are.

Weither there right or not they are opinions.

Also do you class as murders the men who blew up 19 Paratroopers or the men who blew apart soliders in south armagh with sniper rifles, have you ever put your mate into a body bag when his head is in 10 pieces....I don't think so.

A Dub in Glasgo

Horeb wrote:

The Justice System can be wrong...

True but I find it very very hard to believe that the British justice system would convict a British soldier of muder, when in fact those soldiers just made a mistake. On what basis are you now suggesting that the 2 soldiers did not murder Peter McBride?

As I said before I would stand by them, why as they made a mistake.

Do you ever believe that a soldier can have motives other than a mistake?

Have you been in that posistion ever as I have and it is not easy.

No I have never been in a position where I murdered someone.

Don't be to quick to make judgements unless you have experience of such matters..

I do not need to experience certain things to know that they are wrong. If we could only make comments and judgements based on our actual experience in the exact same situation, life, conversations and these forums would be dead. As you said yourself, you were in the British Army serving in NI, therefore it is more likely you are going to believe the soldiers and I think that is actually clouding your own opinion and judgement on this murder.

Most people here read a lot but actually never have been in the area's mentioned or ever saw the raw side of it..

But you were not there when the murder took place

You have your opinions and are entitled to them as I am and we all are.

Weither there right or not they are opinions.

True

Also do you class as murders the men who blew up 19 Paratroopers or the men who blew apart soliders in south armagh with sniper rifles, have you ever put your mate into a body bag when his head is in 10 pieces....I don't think so.

So because you have put a mate into a body bag, you think that all the bad things soldiers do are mistakes and nothing they do is for negative motives? Well I have been on the recieving end of one of those mistakes, a rifle butt into the shoulder from a friendly squaddie. In fact, it was such a mistake that he even told he was going to do it. In the criminal system we are in, the killings of British soldiers was a criminal act. In a conflict or war situation it was not.

Now, if you can take your belief that these soldiers did not murder Peter McBride to oneside, do you still believe that convicted murderers should retain their job in the British Army?

fragile

Horeb wrote:

The Justice System can be wrong...

Is the Army in a position to question high court decisions about justice, I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I don't think so.

Horeb wrote:

As I said before I would stand by them, why as they made a mistake.

I don't accept that, there was two of them, could they not have shot him in the leg? they had carried out a body search, they knew for a fact that he was unarmed.

daveirl

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A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

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Now you are getting into the lingo, don't forget to put the other mask on when it is something that you do not agree with.

daveirl

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fragile

daveirl wrote:

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So do think that Slobodan Milosevic should be forgiven and aquitted of all war crimes, I mean it was just a war, bad things happen right :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote:

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The lack of any smilies give no indication that what you said is not what you believe