Cycling advice from Toronto

daymobrew

A friend is moving to Toronoto so I was browsing a website about the city.
I came across a section about cycling in the city.

http://www.toronto.ca/cycling/map/car_bike_collisions.htm
The page has a graphic showing the "eight most common types of collisions between motor- vehicles and bicycles in Toronto, accounting for 75 per cent of all reported car/bike collisions."
Each type is described lower down in the page.

What I liked about the descriptions is that it lists steps that cyclists can take to reduce the chance of accidents, even when they would not be at fault for the accident.
Threads here and in other forums (foura?) have cyclists blaming motorists for everything and vice versa.
I cycle 9 miles each way to work. I'm not a fan of bad driving or of bad cyclists (giving me a bad name). The advice on the page reflects my cycling technique - defensive cycling. Sometimes you have to give up your right of way to avoid an accident.
I'd rather not be in an accident than be in one, get hurt but be in the right (and possibly get compensation).

One bit of advice not mentioned is mirrors - I have one at the end of my right handlebar (rectangular one - Zefal Zooback for 14 euro). I can keep an eye on approaching traffic without wobbling as I look behind.
Car drivers - can you imagine not having mirrors? Cyclists should think about adding them.

Iób

Much better than the offensive nonsense from the so-called national safety council.

weehamster

In Amsterdam, the cycle lanes in the city centre are seperated from the road by bollards. This is EXACTLY what needs to be done in Dublin city centre. The current programme of painting the side of the roads red does not add any real extra satety to the cyclists. Current suggestions of banning HGV from the City Centre is unrealistic as they are needed to deliver goods to the shops.

Metrobest

I concur. The Toronto model basically absolves drivers of all responsibility. The attitude to cyclists is, yes, you may use the roads but watch your ass!

I believe some Dutch planners will be speaking at a Velo-city cycling conference in Dublin this May. They'll be talking about interurban cycling lanes and the problems that Dutch cyclists face, even in idyllic Amsterdam. Will be interesting to hear what they say. They'll be shocked when they discover the appalling condition Dublin cyclists must endure.. when they return back to Holland they'll realise just how little Dutch cyclists have to complain about.

BrianD

weehamster wrote:

In Amsterdam, the cycle lanes in the city centre are seperated from the road by bollards. This is EXACTLY what needs to be done in Dublin city centre. The current programme of painting the side of the roads red does not add any real extra satety to the cyclists. Current suggestions of banning HGV from the City Centre is unrealistic as they are needed to deliver goods to the shops.

Banning HGV's is not unrealistic and will be happening after the tunnel opens. This will remove the majority of artics that are the big threat to cyclists and pedestrians.

As retail gets more expensive in Dublin what you are seeing is more floor space and less storage. Therefore more frequent deliveries are required with smaller vehicles.

Bollards will not be installed in the city centre. They are not required nor are they desirable. In my humble opinion, the white line is sufficient. Sure there will also be idiots who won't obey it.

daymobrew

Metrobest wrote:

The Toronto model basically absolves drivers of all responsibility. The attitude to cyclists is, yes, you may use the roads but watch your ass!

Mmm, I didn't read it like that at all. I read it as "drivers aren't always alert so you should act accordingly".

For example on one scenario: motorist does not look before opening door. The motorist is listed as the one to blame but the cyclist can do something to avoid getting hurt.
It's the same with cars interacting with other cars - don't tailgate in case the car in front stops short. The tailing car is to blame but can take action to avoid the collision.

weehamster

Bollards will not be installed in the city centre. They are not required nor are they desirable. In my humble opinion, the white line is sufficient. Sure there will also be idiots who won't obey it.

I have to say im really disappointed with this comment.

In a perfect world, yes you would be correct. But in reality, there are vehicles that don’t even obey traffic lights (and I know there are cyclists who do the same) let alone obey the white dotted line ( or even a solid white line) of a cycle lane.

To say bollards is not required nor desirable is a very ignorant statement. A Bike V's a vehicle. Which do you feel is the favourite to survive when one hits the other. The Bollard would be valuable requirement to protect cyclists. Remember bikes don’t have bumpers or side impact bars etc...

I use to cycle for 7 years until I gave up after a car hit me while I was in a cycle lane and shattered my wrist taking over a year to heal. I haven’t returned as I got sick and tired of the dangerous road. (I got hit 3 time previously but luckily got away with no injuries)


Im sorry but Im not happy with that comment at all. :mad:

jman0

weehamster wrote:

I use to cycle for 7 years until I gave up after a car hit me while I was in a cycle lane and shattered my wrist taking over a year to heal. I haven’t returned as I got sick and tired of the dangerous road. (I got hit 3 time previously but luckily got away with no injuries)

That really sucks, i'm sorry to hear that.
I suspect this will happen to me at some point, inevitably cyclists will have to become motorists for their own safety in this country.

Metrobest

BrianD wrote:

Bollards will not be installed in the city centre. They are not required nor are they desirable. In my humble opinion, the white line is sufficient. Sure there will also be idiots who won't obey it.

Goodness gracious me. Why are bollards acceptable for the traffic on Stephen's Green but not for a vulnerable cyclist in his cycle lane, at risk of being crushed as buses, trucks and taxis weave in and out of the cycle lane like demented yoyos?

jman0

Metrobest wrote:

Goodness gracious me. Why are bollards acceptable for the traffic on Stephen's Green but not for a vulnerable cyclist in his cycle lane, at risk of being crushed as buses, trucks and taxis weave in and out of the cycle lane like demented yoyos?

It is because cyclists are second-class citizens (or should i say road users) and do not have powerful lobby groups, "social partners", politicians and industry to advance our cause.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Goodness gracious me. Why are bollards acceptable for the traffic on Stephen's Green but not for a vulnerable cyclist in his cycle lane, at risk of being crushed as buses, trucks and taxis weave in and out of the cycle lane like demented yoyos?

Its a matter of context. Having (flexible) bollards in most places will have motorists enforcing their "right" to use a particular piece of road space. Enforcement by the public is known as vigilantism.

Ideally bollards should be used where you are telling the motorised traffic "do not go there", especially handy on contra-flows.

On St. Stephen's Green East and south the bollards warn traffic that it is now two-way. On St. Stephen's Green West they exclude motorised traffic from the front of the RCSI (the will be a cycle lane as far as the top of Grafton Street).

Bollards also cost money.

Traffic

The bollards around St. Stephens Green are temporary and will be replaced in the next few months with a more permanent traffic island.

Cycle lanes will be provided on all sides of the Green

Iób

are the cycle facilities plans for stephen's green online anywhere?

Lennoxschips

I live in Amsterdam and actually prefer the cycle lanes at the edge of the road to the seperated ones. The seperated ones are dangerous because pedestrians tend to treat then like a footpath or people running to cross the road completely ignore them.

Of course the lanes at the edge of the road in Holland are all 1m wide and clearly marked, and don't have signposts planted in them. (I've seen this in Ireland, it's madness.)

Alun

Lennoxschips wrote:

I live in Amsterdam and actually prefer the cycle lanes at the edge of the road to the seperated ones. The seperated ones are dangerous because pedestrians tend to treat then like a footpath or people running to cross the road completely ignore them.

Of course the lanes at the edge of the road in Holland are all 1m wide and clearly marked, and don't have signposts planted in them. (I've seen this in Ireland, it's madness.)

I lived in Holland for 13 years, and I can tell you that the one of the greatest dangers to cyclists there is ... other cyclists, who routinely ignore the rules of the road on the cycle paths too by, amongst other things, crossing in illegal places, ignoring (bike) traffic lights and riding the wrong way on one way cycle paths. Possibly the worst culprits are the hordes (and I mean hordes!) of schoolkids cycling to school in the mornings.

That having been said, the situation there is an order of magnitude better than the situation here. My bike has been out only 2 or 3 times since I moved here 5 years ago, and it's staying put in the shed I can tell you. I value my life too much.

sliabh

I saw the title "Cycling advice from Toronto" and my thoughts were - Don't do it. It's a very long way and you will get extremely wet!!!

dowlingm

The other problem here in Toronto is councillors like Case Ootes in East York fighting bike lanes tooth and nail as they reduce available parking.

Metrobest

Lennoxschips wrote:

I live in Amsterdam and actually prefer the cycle lanes at the edge of the road to the seperated ones. The seperated ones are dangerous because pedestrians tend to treat then like a footpath or people running to cross the road completely ignore them.. (I've seen this in Ireland, it's madness.)

I think that's mainly confined to the tourist areas of the city, particularly Leidseplein with the tourists standing in the cycle lane looking at maps! Also the bicycle bell has a special role in Holland for clearing the wayward pedestrian. Jay-walking Dubliners prefer to laugh and walk out in front of you when the bell is rung at them.

Lennoxschips

The main reason I prefer the lanes on the road is because they are asphalt. The seperated lanes are almost always cement tiles (betontegels), wich is a pain to cycle on.

There's a asphalt lane leading out of Amsterdam to Amstelveen which is a grade seperated cycle lane. It runs on its own alignment away from any roads or footpaths and is surrounded by bushes and has its own lighting. It's brilliant, it's like a bike motorway, with off-ramps and everything. It's so popular that there are 'traffic jams' on it at rush hour.

cyclopath2001

Lennoxschips wrote:

There's a lane leading out of Amsterdam to Amstelveen which is a grade seperated cycle lane. It runs on its own alignment away from any roads or footpaths and is surrounded by bushes and has its own lighting. It's brilliant, it's like a bike motorway, with off-ramps and everything. It's so popular that there are 'traffic jams' on it at rush hour.

Perhaps the biggest difference between Holland and Ireland is that in Ireland, an 'Irish Solution' is being applied. Here, we are pioneering the use of 'shared car & cycle lanes', 'advisory cycle lanes' and 'shared cycle lane/footpaths'. The result is, at little or no expense (since no construction is needed), a network of 320km of 'strategic cycle network', soon to be the envy of Europe.

Alun

Lennoxschips wrote:

The main reason I prefer the lanes on the road is because they are asphalt. The seperated lanes are almost always cement tiles (betontegels), wich is a pain to cycle on.

Not where I was (Eindhoven). The vast majority of cycle paths were asphalt, just like the roads.

Metrobest

Most of the lanes in Amsterdam, outside of the canal ring, are asphalt. I don't mind either: I think the tiled lanes are useful for slowing down cyclists' speed, particularly when adjacent to the canals!

I particularly like cycling through the Vondelpark, such a pleasure and so relaxing, it is the anthithesis of the Dublin cycling experience. Why can't Dublin's cycling planners just pay a visit to Amsterdam and copy EVERYTHING?