EU stop Intel grant aid

leeroybrown

irish1 wrote:

Keep that nose covered!!

Were you the **** who kept nicking my Dryden???

OfflerCrocGod

irish1 wrote:

This extension will create approx 400 full time jobs and the during the construction there is hundreds of people being employed. The government will get a lot more than 100 million back in PAYE tax alone over the coming years.

As far as the Commision could see this didn't actually create 400 jobs, maybe it was that 400 people were to move from the 90nm line to the 65nm line and this is what is being called the "creation" of 400 jobs. I think it's a good move those millions can go to something more usefull, Intel is not pulling out and we have not lost anything.

ressem

Think they'll try again when Intel are dealing with 45nm nanotech?

The AMD Dresden grant aid last yr suggests that heavy grants are still possible.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/02/06/eu_approves_euro_545m_grants/

But having to get approval from Brussels unless company delivers an innotative new product sounds like a rule ripe for political backstabbing between countries.

Personally think that trainng people in top class manufacturing is as important as the R&D side.

ishmael whale

ressem wrote:

The AMD Dresden grant aid last yr suggests that heavy grants are still possible.

Presumably AMD are not seen as having a dominant market position, another factor in the Commission's decision on Intel.

If we take it right, the Commission decision will only push us in the direction we should go in anyway. Does anyone really see a long term future for Ireland as a location for internationally mobile manufacturing?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0304/741504455HM1INTEL.html
“ … The commission has signalled opposition to further grants for Intel as they would cement its dominant position in Europe.”

Boggle

I'm not being picky but the costs involved in manufacturing Integrated Circuits doesn't compare to anything else I've heard out there, and it's so expensive nowadays that many companies are consolidating their facilities or outsourcing it to places like TSMC.

I was in TSMC once - never seen such a busy manuf environment. Thing is, while TSMC is much cheaper (state aid) than buillding in your own fab - if the market picks up then you will be strangled as they allocate each customer only so much production capacity...

dloob

The Irish Times reports that two future FABs which Intel has filed planning permission for may not now be built

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0304/741504455HM1INTEL.html

You have to wonder what will happen when the current FABs become outdated.
Whats the useful life of an Intel FAB these days?
Don't they need to effectively rebuilt every few years to handle new processes?

dathi1

The commission has signalled opposition to further grants for Intel as they would cement its dominant position in Europe.”

"The commission" ........jezus its getting to the stage where Hitler wanted to be without firing a shot.

dathi1

Would Intel or a host of other multinationals even be here to contribute to the Irish economy without Ireland being part of the EU? Maybe, but its beyond simplistic to dismiss the EU on the basis of a decision going against us.

No problem being part of the EU if it was an EU that doesn't interfere with our decisions on how to run our economy but Irish 1 said..

I just don't think this decision is doing anyone any good, except maybe countries outside the EU like the US or Israel who could get further FAB contracts ahead of Ireland.

"maybe countries outside the EU" hmm........

ishmael whale

dathi1 wrote:

No problem being part of the EU if it was an EU that doesn't interfere with our decisions on how to run our economy.

Being part of the EU means we have to accept that it can interfere with how we run the economy. It's unreasonable to expect that other member states have to throw their markets open to our business without our agreeing to play by common rules.

I think we also need to reflect on why the Commission took a negative attitude to supporting Intel. From their perspective, giving Intel grants when it already has a dominant position in the market makes little sense. They are also probably not too worried about the plant moving outside the EU, any more than we'd be bothered about buying our potatoes from Lidl.

If, however, the government was grant aiding a company aiming to compete with Intel in some market, or if Intel were basing some truly innovative operation in Ireland (and hence within the EU), the Commission would in all likelihood permit the grant to be paid.

All in all, I think we need to look past the knee-jerk reaction of decrying the EU for interfering with our desire to subsidise Intel. There's a wider agenda out there that we need to get behind.

Villain

ishmael whale wrote:

Being part of the EU means we have to accept that it can interfere with how we run the economy. It's unreasonable to expect that other member states have to throw their markets open to our business without our agreeing to play by common rules.

I think we also need to reflect on why the Commission took a negative attitude to supporting Intel. From their perspective, giving Intel grants when it already has a dominant position in the market makes little sense. They are also probably not too worried about the plant moving outside the EU, any more than we'd be bothered about buying our potatoes from Lidl.

If, however, the government was grant aiding a company aiming to compete with Intel in some market, or if Intel were basing some truly innovative operation in Ireland (and hence within the EU), the Commission would in all likelihood permit the grant to be paid.

All in all, I think we need to look past the knee-jerk reaction of decrying the EU for interfering with our desire to subsidise Intel. There's a wider agenda out there that we need to get behind.

Yes but ishmael whale, Intel are still going to dominate the market whether or not the EU allow the Irish government to give them grants. IMO this ruling only encourages Intel to build their new facilities outside of the EU, which is of no benefit to anyone in the EU.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

ishmael whale

irish1 wrote:

IMO this ruling only encourages Intel to build their new facilities outside of the EU, which is of no benefit to anyone in the EU.

I take it the EU position is the bigger picture. If Singapore can manufacture a particular product cheaper or better than the EU, then it makes more sense to let them make it and sell them something we can make cheaper and better to them.

Consider how the IDA are actually facilitating Irish companies who want to source their manufacturing in China, on grounds that they are going to lose out in the medium term anyway but if we can keep the marketing and product development here then we’ll be moving up that value chain that everyone keep talking about. We’d do well to catch the drift and invest state funds in third level and in research before we find our national business model no longer holds, and we’re left back where we were twenty years ago.

Villain

ishmael whale wrote:

I take it the EU position is the bigger picture. If Singapore can manufacture a particular product cheaper or better than the EU, then it makes more sense to let them make it and sell them something we can make cheaper and better to them.

Thats a nice idea but a bit hopefull, I personally would prefer to see the EU encourage Intel to expand it's business in the EU.

ishmael whale

I suppose the EU position is that Intel is already in a dominant market position, so encouraging it to expand its business just doesn’t arise. What does arise is either encouraging a competitor to Intel (from an earlier post on this thread it looks like the EU cleared a package for an AMD project in Germany) or providing incentives to Intel to do more than manufacturing.

To be honest, I think we need to start thinking now about what we need to do to confront this reality while we still have money in our pockets. We’ve a bit of a habit of getting too comfortable when things work out. Attracting in Foreign Direct Investment on the grounds that our own private sector is too weak and clueless to make any useful contribution to economic growth is fine. (My picture of indigenous Irish industry is an overweight gombeen with three Centras.) Sitting back and letting the foreign parents do all the marketing and R & D, and assuming that they’ll choose Ireland as a manufacturing base so long as we keep our corporation tax low, is downright dangerous. We need to change.