Folding Aces preflop

careca

Remember the big argument here about whether or not it was right to fold aces preflop. Well the King has spoken

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14576

Yup... Good point. Have played like that before*. Survival is paramount after all. And if you are a couple of people away from the money... Hang tight and be patient.



*I have never thrown away pocket rockets though. I don't have that discipline ...yet.

kencleary

Thats terrible play even in a super satellite. Here's a much better article, nicked shamelessly from Hectorjellys journal, on how to play close to the bubble:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14571&m_id=65556

peeko

I won a massive hand last night with poket aces! It's almost to much to look down into your pocket and see the shiny little devils! Specially when they are the same colour, they look so much more inviting! But agreed there is a time and a place, I'm never folded them before, but I've lost to them plenty and I'm sure there will be a time and a place for me to fold them!

Iago

Pocket rockets, oh how they taunt me

Last night playing in an MTT on VC, top 9 get paid, we're down to 12 and I've a slightly above average stack. I get AA and make a minimum raise from EP, everybody folds. A couple of hands later I get AA again and make a minimum raise from MP, everybody folds. Within 10 hands I've got KK, make a raise of 3*BB, one player goes all-in for practically my entire stack, I call he has AA and I go out in 10th a few hands later.

Sign up to another MTT, top 27 get paid, we're down to around 33 and I'm short stacked. Blinds are 600/1200 and I have 9.5K. I'm dealt AKd and utg goes all-in for around 20K. Felt I had to call although I figured he must have AA, sure enough he did and I went out. Probably shouldn't have called but I was running out of room to manuevere.

Later on playing a €100 STT, blinds are 100/200 6 handed, and I've about 6.5k. get dealt AA in EP and raise to 800, player in MP goes all-in for 4.6K and I call. He turns over 66, gets a 6 on the flop and I go from comfortable to struggling to stay afloat. eventually went out in 4th.

AA are officially my pet hate at the moment

][cEMAN**

Personally I would never fold em pre flop. I would fold em on the flop if I see a possible made flush/straight, or face pair already up there, and someone bets heavily into me.

Maybe I just have a lot to learn

If I didn't see a made pair on the board though, and only 2 of a possible straight or flush (made up to 4 if someone's holding), then i'd bet into it with enough to make people think twice about going for a draw. If a K or Q is already up there i'd hope that they might have a high pair and be betting on that, but remembering that they could have 2 pair, or could hit their straight or flush on the turn/river.

ionapaul

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']Personally I would never fold em pre flop.

I'm with you on this - I'm certainly not in a tournament to finish in the last of the paying places! Maybe that's just because the tournaments I'm involved in only pay significantly when you finish in the last handful of places, so winning double your buy-in isn't particularly impressive.

Samba

I guess it depends what you want to do, move up the money or win the tournament.

I have made this mistake myself, perhaps not really a mistake, put down AK to 3 all ins before me.......


They all turn over rags and my mucked AK was the winner, I would have been chip leader after the hand.


2 all ins I was calling in a flash....but 3 put too may doubts in my mind.

Shortstack

I would agree that you should never fold them preflop in an ordinary tournament or cash game no matter what the stakes. The whole point of poker is to get your money in when you have the best of it. The only situation where your Aces are not a favourite are never gonna happen.

In a satellite though it is different though, especially one where the prize is worth having. If you are on or very near the bubble there is no need to take on a large stack with any hand if you are one of the large stacks. However I am not going to fold them unless the stack of my opponent will put me in jeopardy if I lose.

jem

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']Personally I would never fold em pre flop. I would fold em on the flop if I see a possible made flush/straight, or face pair already up there, and someone bets heavily into me.

Maybe I just have a lot to learn

QUOTE]

I would be of the same opinion. Either you are there to try and win or don't play. In the tcd tourney in the gresham, I went for it against devore with a10 suited against pk 5's, I could have sat there hoping that a few would go out or pick up a monster hand. I think you shouldn't abuse your cards or you will end up geting ****.

mewso

Lads have ye even read the article and the circumstances it describes where it might be correct to lay them down?

kencleary

musician wrote:

Lads have ye even read the article and the circumstances it describes where it might be correct to lay them down?

Yes and its still rubbish. UTG with 10 players to be eliminated before the remaining players get a ticket. If you're laying down Aces here you might as well p*ss off to the pub or something and hope 10 players before you get blinded away.

mewso

What he says is if it's 9 players left with 8 to qualify (i.e. one more elimination) and a larger stack than you goes all-in it's not worth the risk. i.e. if 1st is worth a substantial but more than 8th then fine but if it's 8 tickets to another tournament...

kencleary

musician wrote:

What he says is if it's 9 players left with 8 to qualify (i.e. one more elimination) and a larger stack than you goes all-in it's not worth the risk. i.e. if 1st is worth a substantial but more than 8th then fine but if it's 8 tickets to another tournament...

Ah you're right! I was reading the first bit of the article going "thats rubbish" skimming over his blather in the middle and getting to the other example at the end - without noticing that the first example was a scene from a show and he wasn't serious

DapperGent

Having read the article I'd agree with the Philster.

peeko

yeah in that situation it's just a gamble playing them... ok the odd's are in your favour, but if you just sit and hold tight then you'll get some $$$ out of it for sure...

henbane

This thread went down like a lead balloon... the Hellmuth effect?

][cEMAN**

The way I see it is this. If you have Aces pre flop, unless someone else has the same hand, you're already in a lead position. No other hand is going to beat you at that moment in time.

To go all in, they're going to be hoping that their QQ or KK or AK or whatever is going to beat everyone else. They're betting not on a draw (which would be stupid to call or raise all in against someone who's betting high here) but rather on their hand being good as it stands, with the chance of getting better come the board.

If you back away from AAs (I haven't read that article - haven't had a chance in work sorry), then what will you call? If you show you can back down on a raise, and you're a smaller stack than the other guy, then on that premise, he can beat you down every single time by going all in pre flop.

In that case, he just has to wait till the blinds kill ya.

I don't like to gamble. I would rather have a hand and hope the other guy doesn't make his, than not have a hand and go for a draw. If, however, I ever found myself backing down with the best hand because I might lose chips, then i'd give up poker. I'd have lost my poker balls

Yes Aces can lose, but then so can any hand, and Aces are less likely to lose.

henbane

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']I haven't read that article - haven't had a chance in work sorry

Therein lies the problem.

][cEMAN**

Any chance of a summary?

henbane

Vaguely amusing twaddle about Michael Madsen having to fold AA preflop during the shooting of Tilt.

Followed by justification of folding AA in a satelite with a flat payout stucture of 8 tickets with 9 players remaining and a larger stack than yours all-in before you, when you're in a comfortable chip position.

I reckon careca posted this mainly for amusement purposes.

][cEMAN**

Ah right. Sorry, you're talking context here now, not just a general question of folding AA under any circumstances.

If you can see that someone is going to go out within the next 2-3 hands, then you can have the patience to wait them out - it doesn't matter what hand you get then, you could fold for the sake of not losing anything.

If however you're in mid position (stack wise) and you're not much higher than a few other people, you have to actually play to not lose on blinds, or the chance that the other person might win a decent hand and leave you in last place.

Under normal circumstances though - mid competition, and an average size stack, with a long way to go till the final table, i'd go for it. I'd still state the same thing I did before and say that if you can't call under those circumstances, you should go searching for your balls