Glasgow Airgun Tragedy

E@gle.

is scothland like ireland do you need a license for airguns up there.

Sparks

E@gle. wrote:

is scothland like ireland do you need a license for airguns up there.

If the muzzle energy of the air rifle is over 12 ft/lb (or 6 ft/lbs for an air pistol), then yes; otherwise no. Same story as throughout europe, though the limits are higher in the UK (in Germany, it's 7 Joules which is a little over 5 ft/lbs).

E@gle.

im not sure about the whole jules thing. but could the person that shot the toddler just have walked into his local gun shop and bought it straight away or was the gun used more powerful than 12 ft/lb.

Sparks

I don't know Eagle, I've asked elsewhere but noone seems to know yet. A 12 ft/lb air rifle's a bit of a beast though, ISSF air rifles are only a bit over 5 ft/lbs and the daisys and the break-barrel things like them are less than that again. A 12 ft/lb air rifle with the heavy hunting pellets with the pointed tips - that's not something I'd want fired at me. Hope they lock the git up for life.

E@gle.

if it was an airgun under 12 ft/lb maybe they should think about enforcing licences for them not just banning them.

Hope they lock the git up for life

i agree

Irishglockfan

If the shooting bodies openly embrace the licensing - the anti gun crowd will be neutered, that is of course, if people don’t regard the possession of an unlicensed air gun as "tradition", and therefore as a constitutional right.

FOR heavens sake man!!!
What else do they have to give up over there???
They lost semi autos and large capicity shotguns through compromise and sell out by the NRA UK after Hungerford,to appease the antigun crowd,and that traditional "bisley"bolt action type shooters would be left in peace.Because the arguement was those "dashed unsporting semi auto rambo guns have no place in civilised society."
After Dunblane it was the big calibre pistols that were thrown to the lions by the respectable small bore target crowd,[no offence Sparks]who supported
any type of ban so "their"pistols would be left alone.They survived a month before they were forced to look for another home outside the UK.

Now it is air rifles and possibly deacts as well,that should be liscensed.
A high tech club that is useless as a firearm and the means where a good few of our very few future prospects come into shooting,will be made more difficult by more stringent laws?

You cant keep appeasing forever!Within 15 years British shooting has been decimated by appeasement and giving up some ground at a time.What has it achieved,nada,nothing,nichts,ZERO!!!The antis keep coming for more bans! These people are uncompromising in their goals,they will not rest until every gun is gone ,and we are living in a totally regulated, sociallytotaliarian state.
After every tragedy there is a call for a ban on somthing type of firearm and as per usual there is somone in the shooting lobby who is willing to compromise,liscense or ban somone elses part of the sport to save some of his sport.Somwhere ,somtime, we as a collective group have to draw a line in the sand and say this far and no further.
Call it caviller"or tradition bound or getting up the great unwashed noses or whatever.IT'S THE TRUTH!And the truth can really hurt!It's high time we stop feeding each other to the crocodiles in the vain hope that the crocs will be full when they get to you.We have to make a stand somwhere.If not here ,where then?

magpie

Can one of you please say '..out of my cold, dead hands'?

E@gle.

if this happens in the uk it wont be long before irelnad follows

civdef

I disagree E@gle. For example, airguns here are very tightly regulated, so it's not comparable to the UK situation where they are sold over the counter. Airguns aren't as commonly used by scumbags over here - theyre far harder to get hold of and legally the same as a proper rifle.

From personal experience the level of airgun use by scumbags in Britain is quite high, they are commonly used in both assaults and crimnal damage. It would seem self evident that some tightening up of the regulations regarding airguns is needed in the UK to try and keep them out of the wrong hands - that said, given the large numbers in circulation, that won't make a meaningful effect on the ground for a considerable time.

Over here on the other hand some relaxation would seem to be in order - eg the reclassification of airguns so that they need a shotgun rather than a rifle licence.

Irishglockfan

Trouble is with free movement of goods and people within the EU.This whole liscensing thing is about as much use as a defence against the wrong people getting airguns or heavier stuff.If they are liscensed in Britan and Ireland,whats to stop "wigga homeboy Gert" going to France or Germany and buying there where they are unlisensed?Along with stun guns ,CS gas switchblades or crossbows[100%more leathl than an air weapon].Or simply ordering it on the net?
Nothing stopping you driving to Poland nowadays and buying an AK or a marakov 9mm on the black market for E300 and driving it back across Europe,onto the ferry at Le Harve and be home in Ireland 24hrs later.Oh sorry..thats already been done.By criminals who really respect the law of the land.
You are better off concentrating catching the illegal stuff and throwing the book at those that break the law,rather than messing around with sufficent and adequate law as it stands.
And airgun misuse will increase here,as we have seen replica softair stuff being confiscated regularly by the gaurds here.

E@gle.

sorry civdef i meant if they ban air guns in uk the goverenment might do the same here.

civdef

I don't believe the law regarding airguns is sufficient in the UK at the moment. It's just too easy for Mr. Scally to walk into his favourite tattoo&airgun emporium and pick up an airgun with no questions asked. It takes significantly more effort to go abroad and illegally import than to go into town.

That said, there are plenty of offences to throw at someone as soon as they take an airgun out in public without good reason - but the application of these tends to be reactive, and the penalties are relatively mild, so there isn't much deterrent effect.

Restricting access to airguns to gneuine sporting users on the other hand would help to make it harder fo these idiots to go out doing harm.

AR-Andy

Irishglockfan wrote:

If they are liscensed in Britan and Ireland,whats to stop "wigga homeboy Gert" going to France or Germany and buying there where they are unlisensed?Along with stun guns ,CS gas switchblades or crossbows[100%more leathl than an air weapon].Or simply ordering it on the net?

If I recall correctly, shotguns are not even licensed in France.

Don't order anything 'illegal' over the net!!!! The British Police have software that logs all such deals, that is how they were able to carry out the recent raids on people who had imported illegal weapons.

Andy

AR-Andy

[QUOTE=civdefThat said, there are plenty of offences to throw at someone as soon as they take an airgun out in public without good reason - but the application of these tends to be reactive, and the penalties are relatively mild, so there isn't much deterrent effect.
.[/QUOTE]

There are reckoned to be at least 3 million in circulation, no way they could all be regulated, no one has any idea who has them. They banned Brocosk Air Pistols and only @7,000 out of 75,000 are accounted for.

Also, missusing an airgun or having one in a public place without 'good reaso'n already can get you up to 8 years inside… but the thugs don't care. More restrictions will have zero impact on them.

Andy

Irishglockfan

QUOTE]If I recall correctly, shotguns are not even licensed in France.[/QUOTE]

Yes they are a liscensed weapon.however it isnt such a big deal to get a liscense for a shotgun in france,or you buy it on your Armes de Chasse[hunting lic]

Don't order anything 'illegal' over the net!!!! The British Police have software that logs all such deals, that is how they were able to carry out the recent raids on people who had imported illegal weapons.

You mean the regulatory investigation powers act[RIP] of 2000?? Fine if you are resident in big brother ville[formerly the UK],where the UK govt is entitled to snoop into every part of her majestys subjects lives.But it doesnt apply to Ireland or Europe.Nor is it cracked up as it is made out to be,not much good anyway if you buy it in person and drive home or fly home with it in your hold luggage.chances of being stopped ?slim and none!Despite the "enhanced security"at major airports,things will still get thru.

Citizen_Erased

What about slingshots? A 38 ball bearing from a black widow is lethal. No one seems to have accounted for them.

E@gle.

civdef wrote:

I don't believe the law regarding airguns is sufficient in the UK at the moment. It's just too easy for Mr. Scally to walk into his favourite tattoo&airgun emporium and pick up an airgun with no questions asked. It takes significantly more effort to go abroad and illegally import than to go into town.

That said, there are plenty of offences to throw at someone as soon as they take an airgun out in public without good reason - but the application of these tends to be reactive, and the penalties are relatively mild, so there isn't much deterrent effect.

Restricting access to airguns to gneuine sporting users on the other hand would help to make it harder fo these idiots to go out doing harm.

yeah i agree with this. if they but a ban on this. there would be no need to ban airguns altogether.

Irishglockfan

Citizen_Erased wrote:

What about slingshots? A 38 ball bearing from a black widow is lethal. No one seems to have accounted for them.

belive it or not banned in germany and france,[i belive] as in the 80s the anarchists,student groups and other munchkins,started using them against riot police.Killed one cop in germany with one as well[a VERY lucky shot]
Thus even a kids homemade "catty" is an offensive weapon over there. Yet you can nip in once you are 18 and buy an air pistol that can be tuned above the 12ftlb limit no problem.go figure.

AR-Andy

Tony Blair has said about this incident that the British Government will not be licencing Air Rifles or looking to restrict their sales.

Rovi

Update from the BBC-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4379379.stm

Here's the text-

McConnell pledges airgun shake-up
Legislation on airguns looks set to be tightened following the death of Glasgow toddler Andrew Morton.

The first minister said he will have discussions with the Home Office about introducing a licensing system for airguns or banning them completely.

Jack McConnell told Holyrood that doing nothing about airguns was not an option in Scotland.

Two-year-old Andrew's death in a shooting incident at the start of the month prompted calls for a review.

Mr McConnell said: "We will have proper discussions with the Home Office and ensure that any legislation that comes forward is well thought through and enforceable.

"I am aware of the opposition, particularly among police forces in England, to any tightening of the law in relation to licensing or a ban and that position has some sympathy in Scotland among the forces.

"But while legislation might sometimes be difficult to implement, that would not make it wrong.

"If further legislation is required, and if it is in the best interest of Scotland, we will push for that legislation."

Examination of the gun laws is taking place at the Home Office in London because firearms legislation is a Westminster responsibility.

Scottish National Party justice spokesman Kenny MacAskill led a debate at Holyrood calling for a specific Scottish firearms act to deal with the issue.

He said that Scotland has "distinctive" problems with weapons such as replica firearms.

Weapons surrendered

He has called for an act pulling together the laws on rifles, shotguns, pistols, airguns and replica guns.

However, Mr McConnell said: "Their (the SNP's) obsession with constitutional issues rather than the real issues that affect people in Scotland every day knows no bounds.

"Today's debate shows them up for their lack of ideas and lack of contribution to real policy debate."

Mr MacAskill replied: "If it's correct to legislate for knives and swords, it's certainly correct to legislate on weapons."

There was agreement among MSPs that the controls on airguns need to be toughened and that Westminster must act.

Mark Bonini, 27, has appeared in court accused of firing an air weapon or similar instrument at Andrew Morton, whereby he died after being struck on the head by a pellet.