The IRA keep a bashing and Sinn Féin keep a shrinking

Rock Climber

Yes thats right,the impact of the IRA's inextricable links with Sinn Féin are telling on the party.

A poll in todays Irish times shows that 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, whilst 64% now believe the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery.
The same poll shows a further huge drop in Gerry Adams approval rating.

Also in this the week that they hold their Árd Fhéis, the inquiry into the Brutal murder of Robert McCartney by "IRA volunteers" is drawing a blank because in the words of the police ombudsman up there(from the indo)

The level of intimidation of witnesses was described by Ms O'Loan as "horrendous". She said: "Seventy people were in the pub and yet not one witness statement has been received."

These are the same "volunteers" that are often féted as heroes at SF Árdfhéiseanna.

It's little wonder then that I contend in the company of the vast majority of the ordinary decent law abiding criminal despising public of this country that the IRA are the real ones doing the SF bashing and they are doing a pretty good job of shrinking Sinn Féin.

mike65

I'd say 56% was a pretty damn low result. If I were SF I'd been slightly hopeful.

Mike.

Cork

Bruton was asked by John McLaughlin on the highly-rated "One on One "program, carried on NBC and PBS: "Is Gerry (Adams) in the top rungs of the leadership of the IRA?" He immediately replied without any hesitancy or equivocation, "Yes."

John Bruton former Taoiseach went on to state :

"We are at risk in Ireland of seeing a Sinn Fein party which is closely linked with a criminal organization,"

Link

SF have some decisions to make regardsing its future.

It cannot winge about all and sundry without taking a long hard look at itself and its associations.

Fwiw,I'm thinking this whole business over the last couple of months must be very frustrating for anyone in Sinn Féin not directly connected with NI politics.
ie people who are out there visiting new constituents more often than the other parties do.
The current high profile troubles for republicans will probably do little damage to the loyality of socialist leaning voters who are being well looked after by their new representatives, but it's likely to put the kie-bosh under any growth outside of that sector.

Reading that poll, 67% of respondents believe that it is time that SF remove itself from the IRA right now,its effectively showing how distastefull people view the IRA link at this stage.
I heard a journalist on the Last word on Today FM yesterday I think, he was from the observer iirc and he estimated that IRA ties with legitimate businesses ran into milions of Euro and thats before the Northern bank heist.
This is a respectable investigative journalist.

Couple that with the regular lectures against IRA criminality in the likes of the Sunday World and the Indo and take that 67% figure above and it's not hard to see what sort of millstone SF has to carry on its neck these days.
The Indo and Sunday world circulation are the highest in the land and rising not falling.Clearly more and more people are sharing their view on the matter.

Sinn Féin have a lot of work to do in my view if they want to turn this situation around and a start would be turning in the murderers of Robert McCartney, his sisters were on the TV again last night saying that the SF leadership were made aware long ago who they are.
The fact that they publically sacked (without prejudice) 7 of their own members over this recently wont be seen as good enough by the family and the longer the perpetrators are free as a result of witness intimidation the worse this is going to look.

simu

Earthman wrote:

Fwiw,I'm thinking this whole business over the last couple of months must be very frustrating for anyone in Sinn Féin not directly connected with NI politics.
ie people who are out there visiting new constituents more often than the other parties do.

I don't get people like this, though. Did they really think it was possible to disconnect SF from NI politics? Seems very naive.

If they've already made a name for themselves, could they not consider breaking off and starting a new party or running as independents?

Villain

Only 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, thats a lot lower than I expected.

Conisdering the ammount of negative press the party has received I think Sinn Fein's support is holding very well.

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

Roisin Dubh

I really don't think what FF/FG/Labour voters think of SF is going to have much affect on its vote in the South. The 30% apporval rating includes a lot more than SF voters, cince their vote in the last poll is 9% - higher than their General Election result.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Only 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, thats a lot lower than I expected.

problem with that sort of analysis though is, in opinion poll terms 56% is a whopping figure to be thinking one way compared to the figure thinking the other.
67% thinking they should split links with the IRA, when thats not on the cards is a dangerous figure for them, as it shows that while the view is out there that there are republican criminals out there, then the public are drawing conclusions on Sinn Féin based on this

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

They can only bounce back if they can deal with the perception of criminality that persists whilst they are inextricably linked to the IRA.
Theres only one way to do that and I think there'd be considerable opposition probably from influential people if there was an internal clampdown with any member involved in racketeering etc-not saying that there is but the perception is out there.

By the way do you really think support for hard left socialism could ever rocket in a greedy society? I'm inclined to think that the majority of people are more influenced these days by give away budgets and SSIA type wind falls, neither of which are a characteristic of hard left socialism.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

Only if they grasp the nettles and strangle the causes of the current woes they have,I suspect that wont be easy or happen too soon as it might rattle a few too many internal opposing toes...

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

Only if they sever all links with their buddies in the criminal IRA.

Rock Climber

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I really don't think what FF/FG/Labour voters think of SF is going to have much affect on its vote in the South. The 30% apporval rating includes a lot more than SF voters, cince their vote in the last poll is 9% - higher than their General Election result.

Yeah but who do or where do you think SF have to take voters to grow?
Opinion polls are usually a representative sample of all voters.
Thus you'd like to see opinion polls going positively, not negatively.

Ok they get some voters out who wouldnt otherwise vote, but theres only a finite stream of them...

simu wrote:

I don't get people like this, though. Did they really think it was possible to disconnect SF from NI politics? Seems very naive.

This is the crux of it.I think it's a lot of blinkerdom.
I mean the IRA are very quick to kneecap some teenager for anti social behaviour , yet their own butcher an innocent guy to death and they cover it up, hum and haw over justice,intimidate witnesses...

You'd have to be very naive to disconnect from that , seeing as it's on the TV every night.

Sigh...

At least people are learning.

mike65

Did anyone watch Gerry Adams keynote speech? I must say I'd sooner burn my eyes and ears out than spend an hour listening which meant I just caught a few glimpses before switching back to er, Song For Europe I saw the McCartney sisters and they looked a bit uncomfortable beside Adams I must say. Not sure why they agreed.

Mike.

AmenToThat

irish1 wrote:

I think Sinn Fein will bounce back and their support will grow. If Sinn Fein can get back to the table and negoiate a deal that will see an end to the IRA, their suppport will rocket.

Sinn Fein has come through tough times in the past and they will come through this.

If course they will bounce back.
They have the two best politicians on the island in Adams and McGuinness and eventually this madness will, like everything else in life blow over and SF will in time emerge stronger and more focused.

BuffyBot

If course they will bounce back.
They have the two best politicians on the island in Adams and McGuinness and eventually this madness will, like everything else in life blow over and SF will in time emerge stronger and more focused.

Well you know, I hope it takes some time. I hope people remember exactly how long it took them to come around to what happened in the McCartney case, and exactly how long it took them to take action - and that action only came due to unprecedented pressure and a lot of awkward questions.

I wouldn't call Adams and McGuinness the "best" politicians - they're great with the old weasel words alright, and are masters of saying a lot of words with little content. If you judge them by that criteria, they certainly have a lead on most!

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Only 56% of the electorate find it unacceptable that they go into government in the Republic, thats a lot lower than I expected.

yeah, that poll was kind to you.
Todays however puts the figure at 69% against Sinn Fein being in government in the Republic.
From RTE this morning

06 March 2005 08:40

A new opinion poll indicates that a large majority of voters in the Republic are opposed to a coalition including Sinn Féin.

A number of motions up for debate today at the party's Ard Fheis urge the party not to enter any such government.

Only 20% of those questoned for the Sunday Business Post survey said they would find the idea acceptable, with 69% saying they were opposed to it.

72% of people said the Government should insist on a signal from the IRA, such as an act of decommissioning, before resuming talks with Sinn Féin.

14% said this was not necessary, and 14% had no opinion.

Just to note that all this is damaging the profile of Republicanism in the U.S similarally as it is here,I found this article in the LA times.
Some selected highlights...

Adams offered sympathy but no new commitments to the McCartneys, who have alleged that the IRA is intimidating witnesses to the attack.

The family left the conference saying they were not satisfied. They said that none of 72 potential witnesses had given police statements identifying the attackers, whose names are said to be known in the McCartneys' Belfast neighborhood of Short Strand, an IRA power base.

"These men murdered my brother. Everyone knows who they are," Catherine McCartney said.

Their outspoken criticism of the IRA is almost unheard of in their neighborhood, and it is indicative of the deep problems facing Sinn Fein. Not only is the party under unprecedented pressure from a traditional local heartland over the stabbing, it is facing fire from political opponents and governments over the killing and a $50-million bank heist also blamed on the IRA.

They also note that for the first time in years,no member of the U.S congress either Democrat or Republican attended the Ard fheis.

Villain

I think the US support will go quite for a while but once a deal is brokered and the IRA decommission Sinn Fein's support in the US will grow. Sinn Fein has a very strong support base in the US.

Sleepy

How do you reason that one irish1? Once a deal is brokered Sinn Fein are nothing more than an extreme left socialist party. Not exactly something that's popular in the good ole' Ewe Ess of Aiii now is it?

Villain

They will also be the only republican show in town.

Cork

Sinn Fein's support in the US will grow.

What do you mean?

Are the Shinners actually going to stand in a US election?

But is probably fianacial support you mean?

What is the average cost that an Amercian pays to sit down and listen to Adams?

As Tánaiste Mary Harney succinctly put it, the denial by senior Sinn Féin figures of any involvement in or knowledge of the IRA is “just a joke”.

[iRISH eXAMINER

I really can't see the US administation allowing the Shinners to fund raise untill SF breaks all links with their buddies in the criminal IRA.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

They will also be the only republican show in town.

One liners like that dont make discussion, this I thought this is a discussion board...

how on earth could Sinn Féin be the only show in town?
There are lots of Republicans out there who believe that the PIRA sullied the name of this Republic by bombing, shooting and killing without the peoples permission and yet again, we have Adams at his Ard fheis speaking of these people as if it was something to be proud of...
While thats what he talks about with pride and in the same speech accuses the 3 big parties of delaying unity,I believe the IRA will continue to bash sinn Féin and shrink it .
Honestly the Gall of saying the 3 big parties delayed unity while at the same time venerating those that murdered and bombed all round the north for decades -yeah that really gave the unionists tthe appetite for a united Ireland... :rolleyes:

The mind boggles as to how that sort of veneration could ever be acceptable to the Irish people.
Clearly it isnt or it would be the well financed Sinn Féin that would have most of the vote in this country and not FF,FG,and Labour as well as a myriad of non violence praising independents.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

One liners like that dont make discussion, this I thought this is a discussion board...

No but I think you'll find I have been discussing these issues here a lot lately, so forgive me if I'm not going to go back over everything just because you haven't been around. You might want to go back over the hundreds of posts I have posted while you have been away.

Rock Climber wrote:

how on earth could Sinn Féin be the only show in town?
There are lots of Republicans out there who believe that the PIRA sullied the name of this Republic by bombing, shooting and killing without the peoples permission and yet again, we have Adams at his Ard fheis speaking of these people as if it was something to be proud of...
While thats what he talks about with pride and in the same speech accuses the 3 big parties of delaying unity,I believe the IRA will continue to bash sinn Féin and shrink it .
Honestly the Gall of saying the 3 big parties delayed unity while at the same time venerating those that murdered and bombed all round the north for decades -yeah that really gave the unionists tthe appetite for a united Ireland... :rolleyes:

The mind boggles as to how that sort of veneration could ever be acceptable to the Irish people.
Clearly it isnt or it would be the well financed Sinn Féin that would have most of the vote in this country and not FF,FG,and Labour as well as a myriad of non violence praising independents.

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning. Sinn Fein had brokered a deal that would have seen total decommisioning happen before xmas, but Paisley said no.

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland. FF are as intertested in republicism as they are in clearing the waiting lists in our hospitals. Sinn Fein are the only ALL Ireland party and I believe they are the only true republican party on this Island

Cork

Rock Climber wrote:

One liners like that dont make discussion, this I thought this is a discussion board...

how on earth could Sinn Féin be the only show in town?

God only knows what senior SF are currently planning.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

You might want to go back over the hundreds of posts I have posted while you have been away.

Is that an insult on the poster or the post?
By the wayI'm as entitled to speak my mind here as you are.

Sinn Fein had brokered a deal that would have seen total decommisioning happen before xmas, but Paisley said no.

And what use was that when the IRA were planning the biggest ever robbery in these islands at the time? That is the view of the majority of the people on this island and of Dáil Éireann.

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland. FF are as intertested in republicism as they are in clearing the waiting lists in our hospitals. Sinn Fein are the only ALL Ireland party and I believe they are the only true republican party on this Island

Define Republicanism?
Bombing , shooting, killing and mahem? There was no need for that in the 1980's or the 1990's while we were all in the E.U
The SF party that you support venorate the perpetrators of that campaign while the victims families are still alive.
I can give out about that and say it's wrong without any conclusion being drawn that I support the terror from the other side, I most certainly don't.
But to support a party that venorates that murder and mahem and increasingly as perceived by the people of Ireland criminality as well is simply not good full stop.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning.

It was SF/IRA who refused to sign a no criminality pledage. The pledge was to include propction aganist property and owns person.

SF/IRA both refused to agree to this?

blaming democratically elected governments and unionists is an old Shinner ploy. Sinn fein is always daz white.

SF really needs to get to grips with itself. It is a party that has campaigned for the early realease of killers of Garda Jerry McCabe.

It maintains links with an illegal organisation. Some of its members havetrouble calling cold blooded murder of Jean McConville and Jerry McCabe a crime.

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland

What has SF done?

FF, FG, Labour or the SDLP have never been a month piece for the IRA.

Sand

I think the US support will go quite for a while but once a deal is brokered and the IRA decommission Sinn Fein's support in the US will grow. Sinn Fein has a very strong support base in the US.

A support based on ignorance and a romantic, dewy eyed view of the dashing flying columns of SF/IRA skipping from misty glen to misty glen, ambushing the pillaging,raping, murdering British soldiers- possibly played by the same guys as from Braveheart.

That might be put down to Americans not knowing **** about anything outside their own country, but lets face it - its Irish people who are voting for that myth.

When or if the McCartneys visit the U.S. (a terrifying prospect for Adams and his merry band of scum) the American supporters of SF/IRA might get a hell of a wakeup in these post 9/11 days.

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning. Sinn Fein had brokered a deal that would have seen total decommisioning happen before xmas, but Paisley said no.

So you havent heard that the reason that SF/IRA walked away was because of the clause in the agreement that would have demanded an end to criminality?

It's interesting that you speak of the support for FF, FG and Labour in THIS country, that means F*** all to the Nationalists in Northern Ireland. FF are as intertested in republicism as they are in clearing the waiting lists in our hospitals. Sinn Fein are the only ALL Ireland party and I believe they are the only true republican party on this Island

I like this - when you accuse SF/IRA voters of voting for the killers of Jerry McCabe, of Robert McCartney, for the people who robbed the NIB, for the people operating a massive money laundering scheme, for the people who are directing a massive intimidation campaign in Nationalist areas, and for the people beating and mutilating children in the North its denied that theres any connection between their vote and approval for those actions. "Oh no" they say "Im voting for a local candidate whose got the job done, the north plays no role in my decision". And yet, theyre the only all Ireland party, a party who sprawls across either side of the border.

Either way, Nationalists in the north would be far better served by FF/FG/Labour than they are by SF/IRA. They would have rule of law, they would have a party that is interested in serving their interests rather than prosecuting an archaic idealogical campaign, they would have a party that doesnt murder them and terrorise them if they speak out against the party. Sure, they might be corrupt incompetent tossers but better that than murderous corrupt incompetent tossers.

By the way, the fallout from the McCartney murder is snowballing. And it seems like Gerry and Martin have instructed the night shift to cease beatings whilst theyre attempting to pacify the families. Wonderous how the beatings stop and start as suits SF/IRAs electoral strategies, isnt it?

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Is that an insult on the poster or the post?
By the wayI'm as entitled to speak my mind here as you are.

Its not an insult at all and of course you are entitled to speak your mind, I was simply stating I have discussed all these issues while you were away.

Rock Climber wrote:

And what use was that when the IRA were planning the biggest ever robbery in these islands at the time? That is the view of the majority of the people on this island and of Dáil Éireann.

I have seen no proof that shows the IRA as an organisation was planning this robbery then.

Rock Climber wrote:

Define Republicanism?
Bombing , shooting, killing and mahem? There was no need for that in the 1980's or the 1990's while we were all in the E.U
The SF party that you support venorate the perpetrators of that campaign while the victims families are still alive.
I can give out about that and say it's wrong without any conclusion being drawn that I support the terror from the other side, I most certainly don't.
But to support a party that venorates that murder and mahem and increasingly as perceived by the people of Ireland criminality as well is simply not good full stop.

Bombing and shooting etc has no place in republicanism now, FF and the PD's say they want a United Ireland, how can they achieve that when they don't have a mandate from Nationalists in Northern Ireand.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

I have seen no proof that shows the IRA as an organisation was planning this robbery then.

I know the nile is a river in egypt.

Bombing and shooting etc has no place in republicanism now, FF and the PD's say they want a United Ireland, how can they achieve that when they don't have a mandate from Nationalists in Northern Ireand.

So you support a party that venorates people who walk the streets now that bombed and shot right through the 80's and 90's and whose victims families are still alive?
Speaks for itself really.
The people of ireland are waking up and smelling the coffee.
The sheer hypocrisy of saying that a party that supported the Bombing and shooting of fellow Irish people and English people(kids in warrington for instance) brought a united Ireland foward whilst the contitutional parties dragged it back is breath taking.

Villain

Rock Climber I think it's about time you moved on Sinn Fein are committed to peaceful means now. It's as easy to go back 100 years as 20 years, I mean I think you might remember a time when Pat Rabbittes party was been funded by the proceeds of bank robberies.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Rock Climber I think it's about time you moved on Sinn Fein are committed to peaceful means now. It's as easy to go back 100 years as 20 years, I mean I think you might remember a time when Pat Rabbittes party was been funded by the proceeds of bank robberies.

Oh does Pat Rabbitte fete terrorists at the Labour Ard fheis every year?
news to me...
Was he negotiating for a group while they were planning a robbery?
Did he have to expell members on suspicion of being an accessory to murder recently?

This is all current, you may be willing to accept it, but the majority of the Irish people clearly dont.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Bombing and shooting etc has no place in republicanism now, FF and the PD's say they want a United Ireland, how can they achieve that when they don't have a mandate from Nationalists in Northern Ireand.

But the murder of a garda is not a crime?

The mask has been pulled off SF/IRA. We know exactly what they represent. What has the NI raid or Killing of Robert McCarney to do with a United Ireland?

But SF failed to sign up to a no criminality pledge last December that would protect the person and the property.

SF /IRA have done nothing but devide the peoples of this island.

SF/IRA are a mess. They are niether fish nor foul.

What mandate has SF to maintain links with the IRA?

Pat Rabbitte is not a member of the IRA army council. Niether are any other members of the Labour party.

Pat Rabitte has no problem calling murder a crime unlike some shinners.

AmenToThat

Cork wrote:

But the murder of a garda is not a crime?

Not in the context of the events of 1996.
Horrible, yes.
Criminal?, no!

Cork wrote:

The mask has been pulled off SF/IRA. We know exactly what they represent. What has the NI raid or Killing of Robert McCarney to do with a United Ireland?

The killing of Robert Mc was not an action sanctioned by the IRA and as such they are not accountable for the actions of rogue elements in the same way you cannot condem all gardai for the criminal actions of a few.

Cork wrote:

But SF failed to sign up to a no criminality pledge last December that would protect the person and the property.

You think that was the only issue at the time?
Take the blinkers off for a while and take a look at the big picture

Cork wrote:

SF /IRA have done nothing but devide the peoples of this island.

Think you will find that it was Britain and Micheal Collins that did that.

Cork wrote:

SF/IRA are a mess. They are niether fish nor foul.

Again this is not true, despite the events of the last weeks SF support has remainded steady as the people of Ireland realize that SF are the best hope for a lasting peace on the island

Cork wrote:

What mandate has SF to maintain links with the IRA?

The support of the majority of the nationalist population in the north, the only mandate they need.

Cork wrote:

Pat Rabitte has no problem calling murder a crime unlike some shinners.

Why would we possible want to call IRA actions crimes when they quiet clearly are not?
Simply doesnt make sense.