The IRA keep a bashing and Sinn Féin keep a shrinking

AmenToThat

AmenToThat wrote:

Not in the context of the events of 1996.
Horrible, yes.
Criminal?, no!

The murder of a Garda is a crime

Hydroquinone

I have a question that I hope a Sinn Fein person could answer.

I watched Gerry Adams give his leaders address at the Ard Fheis on the telly on Saturday and he said he would not rest until the people who killed robert McCartney admitted it and were brought to justice in a court of law.
(they might not have been his exact words, but it was something along those lines)

Can any SF-er tell me if he meant
1) A court of law in NI
2) A court of law here in RoI
3) A court sometime in the future when there is only one country on this island.

If he meant in NI, then he must be a hypocrite as he doesn't accept British rule on this island, or presumably their justice. Does he?
If he mean in RoI - can one country try a person for a crime committed in a foreign jurisdiction?
If he meant in the future, when all of this island is one country, then I suppose he might have a point. But if I was a McCartney sister, it'd mean diddly squat to me. Double speak and weasel words.

So Sinn Feiners, where did he mean?

Villain

He meant the Crown Court in NI, that it is the only place these men can be tried for murder of Robert McCartney.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

The British and Irish governments backed Paisleys demands for humilation by supporting the demands for photgraphing the acts of decomissioning.

Interesting how the notion of photographing a move that even someone as anti-Sinn Fein as myself would applaud is seen as humiliating when murdering Gardai, butchering innocent men etc. etc. etc. isn't.

How in the name of your god do you rationalise this? I think it's clear to all that Sinn Fein / IRA were negotiating in bad faith and had no intentions of decomissioning.

Villain

Sleepy if you watched the speech Paisley gave you would see why it was called humiliation.

IMO two clergy men witnessing the act was a fair proposal.

Squaletto

Hi all anti Republican posters, it is high time you all woke up to the fact that sooner or later your FF and FG and PD politicians will have to beg SF for their support in bringing about peace in Ireland. Stop the crap and beg your corrupt local FF, FG and PD TD to act now and get the Peace Process back on track.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.

mycroft

The killing of Robert Mc was not an action sanctioned by the IRA and as such they are not accountable for the actions of rogue elements in the same way you cannot condem all gardai for the criminal actions of a few.

Of course, and the Campaign to have them released is what?

Hydroquinone

irish1 wrote:

He meant the Crown Court in NI, that it is the only place these men can be tried for murder of Robert McCartney.

And how does that sit with the Sinn Fein party faithful?
Surely they are pissed off with him for suggesting it?

In real terms it surely means that SF members have to go and talk to the PSNI and give statements then be tried in a British court and face British justice.
How can he suggest that they co-operate with a system they all believe is corrupt and moreover, is part of an illegal occupying power?
Is that treason in the SF mindset?

Villain

Yep if you caught a news bullentin today they reported some members were not happy, but IMO Adams is doing the right thing all be it a little slowly.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

Sleepy if you watched the speech Paisley gave you would see why it was called humiliation.

IMO two clergy men witnessing the act was a fair proposal.

There would have been no humiliation in taking the moral high ground. Kennedy hardly humiliated himself by stepping down unilateraly during the Cuban Missile crisis did he?

Sleepy

Squaletto wrote:

Hi all anti Republican posters, it is high time you all woke up to the fact that sooner or later your FF and FG and PD politicians will have to beg SF for their support in bringing about peace in Ireland. Stop the crap and beg your corrupt local FF, FG and PD TD to act now and get the Peace Process back on track.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys.

Congratulations. You're the first person I've ever chosen to add to my ignore list.

Squaletto

Sleepy wrote:

Congratulations. You're the first person I've ever chosen to add to my ignore list.

I might be the first person to be ignored by you but going through all your postings there is evidence that you also choose to ignore the facts regarding republican efforts at bringing about a peaceful resolution to the problem in northern Ireland.

Ignoring the problem doesn't mean it will go away....you know!

ciao for now amici!

swiss

You're the first person I've ever chosen to add to my ignore list.

You're not exactly ignoring him with that comment...

In any case, I do find it heartening that people are finally starting to recognise the deep and inexorable links that exist between Sinn Féin and the IRA. Many people see these links as so intractable that they see these entities as one and the same organisation, and use the notation SF/IRA to convey this. I think this is a reasonable assessment. In such a light, it is only logical to assume that a vote for Sinn Féin is a tacit vote of support for the IRA and their criminal activities.

The IRA have had some bad press of late, and deservedly so. I believe that they were responsible for the Northern bank robbery, and I furthur believe them to be mired in criminality that extends not only to robbery but to beatings, intimidation, money laundering, protection racketeering and drug dealing (either by dealing drugs themselves or by making deals with those that do).

Those who support SF/IRA will often deny the above, claim it to be some kind of Government conspiracy against them, or when this is proved not to be the case, claim that "rogue" elements of republicanism are sullying the name of the IRA. I reject both of these claims. I reject the first one on the very simple premise that since peace in the north is the stated objective of both Governments it would be obtuse to implicate one party to that potential peace in activities that jepordise that peace. I reject the second one because these acts of criminality appear to be far too widespread to be the acts of a few "dissenters" or "rogues". Even if a relatively small percentage of those criminal acts attributed to the IRA by security forces were carried out by the IRA, it indicates a very deep and pervasive criminality within that organisation. Furthurmore, the tacit aura of protection extended to IRA criminal elements, exemplified by the Robert McCartney murder, demonstrate at the very least an acceptance of these activities by mainstream IRA members.

I think that part of the problem is that SF/IRA have gotten so used to people looking the other way for the sake of the peace process that they are now caught on the hop when not only the governments have demonstrated their exasperation in light of the bank robberies, but their very own hinterland in the Short Strand have protested against their links to criminality. To everyone else, this has unmasked the underlying core of SF that they have to date been quite effective in covering up. This core is of course their dealings with a very nasty, very criminal element of an unknown (as yet) number and composition within the IRA.

This has precipitated into a crisis for SF/IRA. Clearly, SF don't want to give up on the political capital they have made with their involvement in the peace process. On the other hand, since they have made their bed with criminals and thugs within the IRA they may now have to find that they have to lie in it, and that it is difficult to sever those associations. In addition, it is unclear whether there is real motivation to give up those associations altogether, probably because these men are seen as republicans who fought for the "cause", and more tellingly, because they still provide excellent financiers for that party.

Therefore SF/IRA face a choice, one which they have quite adeptly managed to avoid since the inception of the peace process. This choice is whether to go down the sole path of peaceful democratic means or not. This time, however, there is no more budge and fudge around the issue. Both Governments, as well as a significant percentage of people north and south of the border, share this opinion.

Decision time, what's it to be?

Squaletto

swiss wrote:

You're not exactly ignoring him with that comment...

In any case, I do find it heartening that people are finally starting to recognise the deep and inexorable links that exist between Sinn Féin and the IRA. Many people see these links as so intractable that they see these entities as one and the same organisation, and use the notation SF/IRA to convey this. I think this is a reasonable assessment. In such a light, it is only logical to assume that a vote for Sinn Féin is a tacit vote of support for the IRA and their criminal activities.

The IRA have had some bad press of late, and deservedly so. I believe that they were responsible for the Northern bank robbery, and I furthur believe them to be mired in criminality that extends not only to robbery but to beatings, intimidation, money laundering, protection racketeering and drug dealing (either by dealing drugs themselves or by making deals with those that do).

Those who support SF/IRA will often deny the above, claim it to be some kind of Government conspiracy against them, or when this is proved not to be the case, claim that "rogue" elements of republicanism are sullying the name of the IRA. I reject both of these claims. I reject the first one on the very simple premise that since peace in the north is the stated objective of both Governments it would be obtuse to implicate one party to that potential peace in activities that jepordise that peace. I reject the second one because these acts of criminality appear to be far too widespread to be the acts of a few "dissenters" or "rogues". Even if a relatively small percentage of those criminal acts attributed to the IRA by security forces were carried out by the IRA, it indicates a very deep and pervasive criminality within that organisation. Furthurmore, the tacit aura of protection extended to IRA criminal elements, exemplified by the Robert McCartney murder, demonstrate at the very least an acceptance of these activities by mainstream IRA members.

I think that part of the problem is that SF/IRA have gotten so used to people looking the other way for the sake of the peace process that they are now caught on the hop when not only the governments have demonstrated their exasperation in light of the bank robberies, but their very own hinterland in the Short Strand have protested against their links to criminality. To everyone else, this has unmasked the underlying core of SF that they have to date been quite effective in covering up. This core is of course their dealings with a very nasty, very criminal element of an unknown (as yet) number and composition within the IRA.

This has precipitated into a crisis for SF/IRA. Clearly, SF don't want to give up on the political capital they have made with their involvement in the peace process. On the other hand, since they have made their bed with criminals and thugs within the IRA they may now have to find that they have to lie in it, and that it is difficult to sever those associations. In addition, it is unclear whether there is real motivation to give up those associations altogether, probably because these men are seen as republicans who fought for the "cause", and more tellingly, because they still provide excellent financiers for that party.

Therefore SF/IRA face a choice, one which they have quite adeptly managed to avoid since the inception of the peace process. This choice is whether to go down the sole path of peaceful democratic means or not. This time, however, there is no more budge and fudge around the issue. Both Governments, as well as a significant percentage of people north and south of the border, share this opinion.

Decision time, what's it to be?

Decision time indeed. Swiss you make many points and are entitled to that but it seems a little unfair to say that a vote for SF is a vote for the IRA. For the past few weeks we have heard a lot of accusations from all the major democratic parties in the south but as of yet that's all they are accusations. Isn't it time for some evidence to be put forward so the people of Ireland who it may be said have a place for justice and the rule of law can judge for themselves.
I mean, where is the evidence that the IRA did that bank job? Where is the evidence that SF are involved in money laundering. Surely sufficient time has passed to find a link to the money found in Daz boxes and in gardens in Cork to let the public in on the story. I remember hearing that it was only a matter of days before the connection would be proven. Something smells strange and one is reminded of the time when a certain SF candidate in Kerry was arrested days before an important election only to have all charges dropped months later when the hooha had died down. Is it any wonder SF supporters claim a conspiracy!
The actions of PD leader Mc Dowdall is also adding to the feeling that in some quarters letting Sf in to the table to talk might be actually damaging to the mainstream parties political ambitions. Here is a man who has always been against the idea of inclusion for republicans and actively campaigned against John Hume going into talks with the IRA.
It would seem a better idea if all involved really stood back and apply themselves to bringing about a peaceful solution to the problem in the north. Throwing mud at each other is good for headlines but the real problem needs to be addressed. Less of the humiliation talk and trying to criminalise a group of people and more common sense is needed so we can all look forward to a united Ireland where the green lies next to the orange and prosperity for all.

Squaletto

Squaletto wrote:

I mean, where is the evidence that the IRA did that bank job?

You'll have to keep waiting I'm afraid, cases are with the DPP arent they?
Theres never any public display of the case untill it comes to court
It would be a conspiracy if people found with laundered money werent prosecuted and high profile cases didnt ensue, but not the kind of conspiracy you are suggesting.

Less of the humiliation talk and trying to criminalise a group of people and more common sense is needed so we can all look forward to a united Ireland where the green lies next to the orange and prosperity for all.

The problem I see with that is how do you get a million unionists to accept your view? I mean you know what they think of the IRA and of Sinn Féin.
They didnt need the current controversies to hold a dim view of SF.
It isnt as easy or poetic as you make it sound unfortunately.
If it was, the two by-elections would go to Sinn Féin next week and they wont not by a long shot will they?

Sleepy

If Adams et al had any genuine commitment to peace in the north, they'd disband both the party and it's army.

Neither have made any contribution to the peace process, neither have anything to offer other than their closure.

ChRoMe

Yeah sleepy a peace process with only one side represented is a definite plan for success!

If you like it or not the republican movement has to be represented for any peace process to take place.

Sleepy

When you have two extremist parties (i.e. Paisley's boys and Adam's boys) why not remove both and just allow the more reasonable parties sort out the whole thing? Like it or not, to achieve peace both sides need to make concessions and essentially move towards the middle, neither have proven to be prepared to do this so why not just kick em out of the process and allow the rest of the country get on with life?

BuffyBot

When you have two extremist parties (i.e. Paisley's boys and Adam's boys) why not remove both and just allow the more reasonable parties sort out the whole thing?

Well...what could possibly happen....

You exclude both parties. They get annoyed about being excluded from the process.
You alienate their supporters, who rightly or wrongly support them and have given them votes. The parties involved then get to look like the victims. They gain support because of this. They are left out in the cold, and the people the represent feel they aren't being listened to. The peace process moves forward, without input from these two parties. A deal is brokered, but it isn't acceptable to the excluded parties - their concerns haven't been addressed. The process continues. The alienated parties get annoyed. Their more "active" participants begin to feel violence is the only way to get what they want. Violent incidents begin to occur..shootings, bombings and the like.

You know what they say about those who don't learn from history?

Agent Orange

Yawn. Only two types of people vote for IRA Sinn Féin: idiots and extreme nationalists. The Republic's population has few of either, a small minority compared to the population at large.

IRA Sinn Féin's support will drop even more when they lose Adams as a leader: he does a very good impression of a reasonable politician and has charisma. McGuinness looks like a clown without make-up (to quote Alan Partridge).

Only 28% think IRA Sinn Féin are suitable for government. This does not imply they would vote for them. It is an utterly pathetic figure. The bank robbery and the murder cover-up have exposed IRA Sinn Féin as the murderous criminals anyone with half a brain always knew them to be.

AmenToThat

Agent Orange wrote:

Yawn. Only two types of people vote for IRA Sinn Féin: idiots and extreme nationalists. The Republic's population has few of either, a small minority compared to the population at large.

We do however have a large number of narrow minded individuals as you have just demonstrated so well for us.

For the record this SF support may well be an idiot (Iv been called far worse mind you on several occassions during my life) but an extreme nationalist definitally not.
I would consider myself far more open and inclusive (as are many SF voters) in terms of immigration to Ireland and social inclusion than just about all those who vote for FF the PD's and FG.

Villain

Agent Orange wrote:

Yawn. Only two types of people vote for IRA Sinn Féin: idiots and extreme nationalists. The Republic's population has few of either, a small minority compared to the population at large.

IRA Sinn Féin's support will drop even more when they lose Adams as a leader: he does a very good impression of a reasonable politician and has charisma. McGuinness looks like a clown without make-up (to quote Alan Partridge).

Only 28% think IRA Sinn Féin are suitable for government. This does not imply they would vote for them. It is an utterly pathetic figure. The bank robbery and the murder cover-up have exposed IRA Sinn Féin as the murderous criminals anyone with half a brain always knew them to be.

I am far from being an idiot or an extreme nationalist, so you may go back to the drawing board with that one.

monument

BuffyBot wrote:

Well...what could possibly happen....

You exclude both parties. They get annoyed about being excluded from the process.
You alienate their supporters, who rightly or wrongly support them and have given them votes. The parties involved then get to look like the victims. They gain support because of this. They are left out in the cold, and the people the represent feel they aren't being listened to. The peace process moves forward, without input from these two parties. A deal is brokered, but it isn't acceptable to the excluded parties - their concerns haven't been addressed. The process continues. The alienated parties get annoyed. Their more "active" participants begin to feel violence is the only way to get what they want. Violent incidents begin to occur..shootings, bombings and the like.

You know what they say about those who don't learn from history?

Well said.

Agent Orange wrote:

Yawn. Only two types of people vote for IRA Sinn Féin: idiots and extreme nationalists. The Republic's population has few of either, a small minority compared to the population at large.

What ever you want to call them, they are a larger minority then PD voters, who are still within the margin of error.

Rock Climber

monument wrote:

What ever you want to call them, they are a larger minority then PD voters, who are still within the margin of error.

Why is it, the PD's are always brought into this?
Is it because ye don't like McDowell? I'm not a fan of his either but I can tell you that most of the TD's and ergo most of the public that vote for them aren't fans of SF/IRA-they've had enough of the carry on.
Pat Rabbitte is as loudly anti shinner as any of them and so is Enda Kenny and theres the Taoiseach and Tánaiste of the alternative Government if the FF and PD's dont get back in.

In my view SF/IRA would want to clean up their act and get rid of the perception of criminality.

In fact as the respected Ted Kennedy this week(cue the SF voices saying he's no good because he's finally called a spade a spade and in the light of recent events understandably ran out of patience...) said its time to get rid of the IRA full stop.

Soundings coming from the states at the moment if SF dont get their act to gether and grow the balls to shop their IRA friends is that the likes of Adams and McGuinness will have the permission for their lucrative speaking tours of the states withdrawn.

Cork

Sleepy wrote:

If Adams et al had any genuine commitment to peace in the north, they'd disband both the party and it's army.

Neither have made any contribution to the peace process, neither have anything to offer other than their closure.

I agree. Partys of the extreme such as the DUP and SF have little to offer a devided society.

Since the Ni bank raid and the murder of Robert McCartney SF have not done much to advance the cause of justice for the McCartney family or to end criminality within the IRA.

But that still remains for challange for them. It is their choice.

I am full of admiration for Ann McCabe and the McCartney family. It is not easy for either of these familys after the loss they have suffered.

AmenToThat

Cork wrote:

I agree. Partys of the extreme such as the DUP and SF have little to offer a devided society.

SF are far more inclusive in their policies when dealing with people immigrating to Ireland and asylum seekers than FF FG or the PD's so what does that make them?
Iv come to the conclusion that you dont actually have a clue what your talking about half of the time and simply type the first thing that comes into your head!

Cork

AmenToThat wrote:

Iv come to the conclusion that you dont actually have a clue what your talking about half of the time and simply type the first thing that comes into your head!

The documentary on the Balcombe Street gang last week showed it was the provisional movement who did not have a clue.

Bombing pubs and restaurents in the name of Ireland was clueless.

Photographs by Sinn Fein's TDs with the McCabe killers are telling about SF.


Fair play to Ann McCabe and the McCartney family standing up to the likes of SF/IRA. Ann McCabe and the McCartney family are not SF bashing. They are only seeking justice.

I support both Ann McCabe and the McCartney family in their plight.

They have strengh and courage.

Rock Climber

Speaking of the McCartney family-they kept a diary of their time in the States and they are very unhappy with Sinn Féin.
That doesnt surprise me as they were stoney faced at the Árd Fheis.
Sinn Féin's publicity coup at having them there has back fired as it becomes more and more obvious that they were there only to highlight the case of their brothers murder and not for to be whoopee doing Sinn Féin...

Some extracts from their journal were printed in todays Sunday Independent showing how insincere they think Sinn Féin were over the IRA thugs that murdered their brother and they compared the IRA to nazi thugs.

They also pointed out that they funded the trip themselves and are being subjected to mischievous questions to try and undermine them

The family used its diary to hit out strongly at an insidious campaign, secretly promoted by SF-IRA, designed to undermine their cause.

Said Gemma McCartney: "Some people ask about the money. Well, we're staying in two rooms with four double beds. Bridgeen and Claire are sharing one and I'm sleeping on the floor. Most of us borrowed our outfits for the dinner on Wednesday. Some family money paid for the flights

What they thought of the McGuinness warning:

On Tuesday, Gemma adds: "I go on the radio to say what I think of Martin McGuinness for warning us to be very careful and not enter the world of party politics. It was arrogant and patronising. We're nobody's fools and nobody's pulling our strings."

And on Sinn Féins coverup...

On Monday, March 14, Gemma records: "We've just heard that a senior Sinn Fein official was in the bar at the time Robert was stabbed and we talk about that too. It's disgusting."

Theres a pandoras box here for Sinn Féin-whats the betting they'll try and smear that family in the coming months instead of dealing with the albatross around their neck that is the IRA.
As Ted Kennedy said during the week, theres a time to hold them and theres a time to fold them

If Sinn Féin dont deal with this whole criminality thing and do the honest thing with the McCartneys(instead of all the Fudge they are doing now) then in my opinion, the IRA will continue to bash Sinn Féin and they will continue to stagnate/Shrink especially here down south where the very vast majority of people wont trade their vote so easily for a listening ear and a helping hand from hypocrites.

monument

Rock Climber wrote:

Why is it, the PD's are always brought into this?

My comment was in the context and reply of

Republic's population has few of either, a small minority compared to the population at large.

- the PDs hold a smaller minority, and hold heavy power in the running of this country.

As you have brought up the subject of Pat Rabbitte, could you tell me if he was ever in a party while it was linked to a paramilitary? Could you tell me if such a party ‘merged’ with Labour? [Just to clarify, I’m not bringing this “into this”, you did when you mentioned his name and any opposition he has to any apparent link of SF and the IRA]

Rock Climber

monument wrote:

My comment was in the context and reply of - the PDs hold a smaller minority, and hold heavy power in the running of this country.

Aye,they negotiated a programme for government not once but twice and both parties got returned at the last election based on that-Very transparent actually.
It's not my fault that 95% or more of T.D's dont want to go into government with Sinn Féin and thus wont negotiate something similar.
Thats the IRA's fault.

Pat Rabbitte, could you tell me if he was ever in a party while it was linked to a paramilitary? Could you tell me if such a party ‘merged’ with Labour?

I see so you will try to deflect from Sinn Féins fudges on criminality and the Brutal McCartney murder by introducing something spurious about Pat Rabbittes dim and distant past connections whilst ignoring Sinn Féins current woes and their love in with the menacing and criminal IRA.

Not surprising really,whats that I saw whitewashman say the other day...ah yes " you're through to the Sinn Féin Spin office,we will be with you shortly, your call is important to us..."