Hot Hatches

kevodaly

a good few years ago after i started driving, i wanted a hot hatch. had my eye on a 106 gti - a rocket. 1.6 120bhp, test drove it loads of times but unfortunately never got to own it, insurance company either said no way, or that'll be 10,000 pounds please.
so i put in the time, building up the trust of the pmpa boys and bought a 206 xs - 1.6 - not as quick as the 106 gti, but a step up from the 1.1 litre all the same.
and now with the full no claims bonus on board, i drive a mark iv golf gti - 1.8T 150bhp, a hot hatch, or so i thought.

i read a review in the cbg about the new astra 2.0T 170bhp - they said it was only lukewarm as opposed to being a hot hatch ! if thats the case, my golf gti is barely tepid ...

so my question is now, when did the bar go up for a hatch to be hot? looks to me like anything under the 200bhp mark doesn't cut it.

ubu

The bar went up when the hot hatches started putting on weight, with all the safety features etc on new cars now the weight of them has risen significantly, so the power to weight ratio drops, in order to keep it higher they had to increase the power to help carry around all that extra weight.

DirtyHarry

also they have added all these, slip differential, errrrr...i cant think of any more....basically they have taken out alot of fun features of hot hatchs...made them super safe so that u cant slide and have fun with the car as you used too with older models....its a shame really....i still think the 205 Gti is a hoot!

mike65

Tis true, you only have to look at the evolution of the Golf GTI, its about 60% heavier (Mk1 830 kg, Mk5 1336 kg) so it now needs a turbo get anywhere quickly.

If I were in the market for a hot hatch I'd be looking backwards not fowards.

Mike.

BrianD3

If you want a modern hot hatch that is reasonably true to the "spirit" of older hot hatches then the Renault Clio 172 or 182 Cup is one of the best. 172 or 182 bhp in a body which weighs barely over 1 tonne, 0-60 in just under 7 seconds. Unfortunately, this car doesn't seem to be available new in Ireland, there's no mention of it on renault's irish website. Also, the basic design of the Clio is 7 years old, a new car is imminent and will probably be bigger, heavier and safer.

But just to stress how much things have changed, 15 years ago Renault were producing the 5 turbo - a car which weighed around 850 kg, had a 120 bhp 1.4 litre, 8 valve, turbocharged PUSHROD engine and was barely any slower from 0-60 than the Clio 182.

BrianD3

Squirrel

What I'd love is a Mk1 or 2 Golf Gti. Very light cars, so a good power to weight ratio, or not technically a hot hatch, an original Mini Cooper, seriously chuckable

bunker

Saw an alfa 147 gt/gta? on top gear it had 250bhp and went like stink

bazz26

Have a look at the Skoda Octavia vRS. It has a 180bhp tuned version of the Mk IV Golf Gti 1.8 turbo engine. Top speed is 146mph, better value as a second hand buy:

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=113103

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=206967

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=208926

jayok

bunker wrote:

Saw an alfa 147 gt/gta? on top gear it had 250bhp and went like stink

Yeah, shame is couldn't go around corners!

Civic Type R is probably the closest new car you'll get. There's no cliamate control, a/c, crusie, sunroof, etc. Everything is only there because it has to be. Even the soundproofing is removed (and you will notice the lack of it). 0-60 in 6.6s and 197BHP it kinda set the new bar for hot-hatches when it came out first, but is starting to date. Then again it's due to a refresh in 06.

ando

mike65 wrote:

If I were in the market for a hot hatch I'd be looking backwards not fowards

not me, I'd be getting me one of these:



Although the €50,000 price tag for a new Focus RS was ridiculous, but they are steadily coming down, I think you could get one now for about €35 grand

220Bhp

bunker

Yeah you couldnt see the car with all the smoke and understeer and forgot to mention the depreciation. But the civic type r is a good car with good handling etc

bp_me

Im not certain, but I think the 172 can be got if you speak to a dealer. I vaguely recall the local dealer getting 3 a few years back (or was that the v6??? hmmmm??)

camarobill

iv a mark2 1.8gti 16v,iv heard the rolling road figures off all these new hots,iv wipped many a smile off drivers of big bhp motors,a light kerb weight and a few engine mods and u come out good,small mon for big fun

cheapthrills

i've driven the mk4, very comfy and rock solid but exciting it aint.

the modern stuff isn't up to job for the most part, theres little in the way of driver feedback and too many pointless gadgets, if you want a hot hatch to pose in, buy a modern one.
if you want one to drive and be excited by the experience go old school.

ambro25

cheapthrills wrote:

if you want one to drive and be excited by the experience go old school.

Exactly why I bought an (old-ish) 1.8 MX-5. None of that crap, weight-putting A/C, EW, ABS, etc, etc., simple mechanics, easy to tune, sportier than a hot hatch, more fun to drive and more feedback than you can shake a stick at and, in poseability terms, well...

Or a Pug 205 1.9 GTI - but a good'un is a needle in a haystack these days

green-blood

who can afford the "performance" version of a family hatch in this country.

Take that focus, the 1.4 is under 20K, the RS over 50.. in the Uk, it goes from 11K - 20K. I'll just wait around for 5 years and pick up a clean RS in teh UK...I hope!!

PaddyFagan

Just to repeat what Bazz26 said, the octavia vRS is a cracking car - test drove one at the weekend. (There is a new version, based on the Golf markV chassis, due late this year.)

AlanD

I would agree with some of the points made earlier that because of the increased weight of the car, the power also has to increase to keep the car in the hot category.

So why does this happen? Well, for many reasons. In today's motoring world we have a need for safety. Regardless of what bravado some people might have when it comes to driving, not everyone has the skill to keep a powerful car between the ditches. We also have a need to be able to walk out of a car when we have a crash. All of this increases weight, so we need more power to move this weight on in a brisk manner.

But looking at it from the other side, traditionally, expensive cars and more importantly, exotic cars have used it's power as it's marketing tool. When coming out with the next Ferrari or Lamborghini, would it help sell cars if the power output of the car was the same as the old one? No I think not, so figures have always been increased for every new car produced. Even if it has only been by 5/10 bhp. This kind of development always filters down to mere mortal level where we also have a desire to get the new car that is faster than the old one. What if the Mark V golf looked the same as it does today yet weighed the same as the Mark I, yet it still only had 120bhp or whatever the Mark I had. Would the buying public still be that impressed? The odd die hard might be and wouldn't care, but the odd die hard isn't what makes money for car companies. So it's happened that to help sell new cars that may come in under the umbrella of hot hatch, the numbers must increase.

So over the years, power figures have gone up and up, so who takes notice only the bureaucrats. They feel that the cars need to be safer given the speeds that modern cars can now drive at. In my opinion, they were right. So car companies have had to introduce driver aids of all sorts which help make the car safer. Some driver aids help you go faster still but some reign you in. So to chase the safety brigade and keep their hot hatches hot and to keep their customers happy with speed, power has gone up and up. Without the aid of 4WD, I think we may hve reached the end of the power output for FWD cars. Although, there may be technology on the horizon to push that envelope out a bit further and help us mere mortals in to a car that somewhat matches the driving nirvana you may find in a supercar.

So what will we have next to match the likes of a Bugatti Veyron with it's 1000bhp. I'm thinking Peugeot could stick 4 turbo's on their new upcoming 107 to help rocket things along.

I used to be a 206 GTi owner and at the time thought it was the business. It's only a little runaround now!

ambro25

Fair points in all respect.

However, whilst hot hatches have been putting weight and bhps in near-equal measures to address safety concerns and crash survivability etc., one constant is that speed limits have remained the same for donkeys.

So, hot or cold hatch, I just can't see the point of having >150 bhp nowadays, particularly as congestion is only going to worsen, speed limits are only going to be increasignly enforced, etc. Unless you do track days regularly, what's the point of a hot hatch, therefore, except paying more insurance and petrol for the (for ever-more unexploited) potential? Kinda makes the kids tarting up a 1.0 L Micra have some sense, in a weird roundabout way...

green-blood

for the same reasons that I want a Brietling Navitimer/Tag Monaco but can only afford an Accurist.... because I do

AlanD

ambro25 wrote:

So, hot or cold hatch, I just can't see the point of having >150 bhp nowadays, particularly as congestion is only going to worsen, speed limits are only going to be increasignly enforced, etc.

well the point is not always that if you have a fast car that you cane it around every corner and up every straight road you see. I think a lot of it is image and knowing that if you needed it, you have it.

For example, why would someone buy the old M5? 400 bhp in a saloon that should travel no faster than 70/80 in real driving and 60 if that owner keeps to the limits (not condoning speeding btw), but do they have it because they need all of those horses? No, they buy it because of the image it creates. So why would anyone buy the new M5? it's racing car!! But people will buy it because they can. So bring it back down to hot hatches. Why buy a 200 bhp Golf GTI? Well, because it's "affordable", although I do think it's way overpriced. It's withing many peoples grasp that they can have a 200bhp car and that enhances your image and helps build your ego. You'll never use it, but it's good to know you have it.

ambro25

I can well understand wanting to buy a car for the image, rather than the intended, maximum (illegal) use thereof. (I myself drive nice wheels, or so I'd like to think - though most people will blame me as an ego-freak for it, when -in all fairness- I've bought those for the driving pleasure and/or cost-benefit approach, rather than what 'image' they project...).
But then I fail to see/understand the logic when considering the trade off between a new hot hatch and, say, a more-or-less same-priced entry-level Beemer or Merc' or slightly-aged higher-specced same (since those are what seems to get Dubliners hot & sweaty these days)...

MercMad

I'd take a look the Megane 225 !! Loadsa power and Renault do hot hatches really well !

My old Clio 16V was an absolute rocket, modified head, K&N, Superchipped and put out 149BHP (rolling road tested). It'd show a clean pair of heels to ANY car on the twisties !

These things were so light, with great steering, best car I ever drove in anger. When it was windy outside I had to leav my Parker pen on the dash to stop it blowing away !