New IRA Statement - IRA offer to shoot man's killers

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Really? I don't see juch credence, care to explain it too me?

IRA men are cut adrift, when for the sake of PR, they must make a public example of them. IRA then offer to execute the men to save face.

IRA release theres a huge groundswell for them political by the hunger strikers continued presence, the strikers find a honourable agreement with the British government the council rejects the plea, because ten martyrs gives your murial artists more creative ideas then three.

The end result is the same when it was benficial to the movement to have the hunger strikers die, they let them die. When it would be benifical to the movement to have Robert Mc Carthy's killers killed, they tried to go ahead with it. They just realised how massively moronic it would be to do so.

Oh and spare me this army at war crap. If three US GIs gutted a civilian outside a bar near an army base, the Army wouldn't seek the victims family's sanction for their execution. This was PR pure and simple.

ReefBreak

irish1 wrote:

Sorry again Mods but I'm not going to take this crap anymore.

During the troubles, the IRA murdered over 800 people that had NO CONNECTION TO ANY PARAMILITARY ORGANISATION. They committed atrocity after atrocity without remorse or regret - and they still have no remorse or regret. In fact Gerry Adams is on record as saying he is proud of the IRA. So deal with it: the IRA are murderous scumbags that disgraced our nation for years, and still continue to disgrace our nation by robbing banks, butchering people outside pubs and running a criminal mafia. If you can't handle the fact that you vote for poeple that have links to murderers, thieves, liars and terrorists, then I suggest you debate elsewhere. Just don't throw a tantrum when someone reminds you of the truth. And I'll repeat it: anyone that votes for Sinn Féin(/IRA) is a disgrace to Ireland and should feel nothing but shame.

I'm as Irish as you get, and thankfully because of the brave Irish men who fought for our independence I live in a democracy and I can vote for whoever I like.

Funny that, if Sinn Féin/IRA got into power, you can guarantee that the one place that Ireland would not be is a free democracy. Say or do something the IRA don't like? Expect the "Secret Police" around to your house to re-design your kneecaps, or your brain.

A Dub in Glasgo

mycroft wrote:

IRA men are cut adrift, when for the sake of PR, they must make a public example of them. IRA then offer to execute the men to save face.

I have no doubt that the men responsible would have been found in a border field if we were sitting here in a situation like we had 10-15 years ago.

IRA release theres a huge groundswell for them political by the hunger strikers continued presence, the strikers find a honourable agreement with the British government the council rejects the plea, because ten martyrs gives your murial artists more creative ideas then three.

You are believing who?

The end result is the same when it was benficial to the movement to have the hunger strikers die, they let them die.

You are believing who?

Oh and spare me this army at war crap. If three US GIs gutted a civilian outside a bar near an army base, the Army wouldn't seek the victims family's sanction for their execution. This was PR pure and simple.

Probably not but if 2 BA sqaddies murdered an Irish civilian, the Army would not have fought ot keep them, re-instate them after their prison spell and promote one of them?

gandalf

irish1 wrote:

Sorry Mods But I've had enough of reefbreaks sh*t.

F**k You ReefBreak who are you to say I don't deserve to call myself Irish, I have lived in this nation all my life and I am very proud of my culture, I have never broken a law in my life and pay my taxes to this state every week, god damn it I spent the whole day today in Carlow Circuit Court on Jury Duty.

I'm as Irish as you get, and thankfully because of the brave Irish men who fought for our independence I live in a democracy and I can vote for whoever I like.

Sorry again Mods but I'm not going to take this crap anymore.

I am sorry too because you have walked into this banning. Reefbreak is entitled to his opinion and while you are a Sinn Fein voter as you continually tell us here he has not attacked you personally but he expressed his opinion that he cannot understand how people can vote Sinn Fein (obviously in a quite unsophisticated manner).

Villain

ReefBreak wrote:

During the troubles, the IRA murdered over 800 people that had NO CONNECTION TO ANY PARAMILITARY ORGANISATION. They committed atrocity after atrocity without remorse or regret - and they still have no remorse or regret. In fact Gerry Adams is on record as saying he is proud of the IRA. So deal with it: the IRA are murderous scumbags that disgraced our nation for years, and still continue to disgrace our nation by robbing banks, butchering people outside pubs and running a criminal mafia. If you can't handle the fact that you vote for poeple that have links to murderers, thieves, liars and terrorists, then I suggest you debate elsewhere. Just don't throw a tantrum when someone reminds you of the truth. And I'll repeat it: anyone that votes for Sinn Féin(/IRA) is a disgrace to Ireland and should feel nothing but shame.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument here I have sent you a pm if you want to insult me do it through a pm. I feel no shame in expressing my democratic right to vote for whatever party I wish. I have said it many times before but I'll say it again, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE MODERN DAY IRA.

shltter

mycroft wrote:

Then why not only release it as pamplet and post it to all SF members in the south. Or handbills. It was released to the media, therefore I get to comment.

And as for the Mc Carthy family. I think the fact that they were offered vengence and rejected it for an attempt at justice is to be lauded.

i didn't say you could not comment it

just saying it is not aimed at convincing people of your opinion of anything
you havve already made your mind up
it is obviously aimed at calming their own supporters for one
and at the wider nationalist community

to let them know what they are doing have done

the fact that you would criticise the statement does not mean it has not achieved what it set out to do

shltter

ReefBreak wrote:

they don't deserve to call themselves Irish.

so who set you up as having a right to determine wether someone can call themselves irish
we live in a democracy people can vote for whomever they choose

ReefBreak

irish1 wrote:

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument here I have sent you a pm if you want to insult me do it through a pm. I feel no shame in expressing my democratic right to vote for whatever party I wish. I have said it many times before but I'll say it again, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE MODERN DAY IRA.

Perhaps not, but you do support a party that has real and definite links to the IRA. And that's where the problem lies. This whole off-topic issue begs the question: Yes or No, if it were proven that one or all of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness or Martin Ferris were members of the IRA Army council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin? And try and actually answer the question, rather than playing Dodge-the-Answer like the usual Shinner politician.

ReefBreak

shltter wrote:

so who set you up as having a right to determine wether someone can call themselves irish
we live in a democracy people can vote for whomever they choose

I'm certainly not saying that people can't vote for Sinn Féin. People can vote for whoever they like. What I am saying is that people should feel shame when they for vote for them. Similarly, people in Germany should have felt shame when they voted for the Nazis (or as Nazi is also known as: Nationalist Socialist) in the 1930s. I use the Nazi comparison on purpose, by the way. Obviously, when you vote for anyone you don't actually feel shame, but that's not my point.

gt-redeye

"Firstly, the family made it clear that they did not want physical action taken against those involved. They stated that they wanted those individuals to give a full account of their actions in court."

How does this equate to the IRA being prepared to shoot those responsible, as the BBC put it?

ReefBreak

ReefBreak wrote:

Perhaps not, but you do support a party that has real and definite links to the IRA. And that's where the problem lies. This whole off-topic issue begs the question: Yes or No, if it were proven that one or all of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness or Martin Ferris were members of the IRA Army council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin? And try and actually answer the question, rather than playing Dodge-the-Answer like the usual Shinner politician.

Well if you look at Gandalfs post, you will note that irish1 wont be able to reply to your question.
But in fairness to him, he is on record as saying if theres widespread proof of criminality he will reconsider who he votes for.
That would be inconsistent(I think) with not applying the same reasoning to actual cast iron proof of say any of the three names you mentioned being on the IRA army council.

Raskolnikov

ReefBreak wrote:

Yes or No, if it were proven that one or all of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness or Martin Ferris were members of the IRA Army council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin?

Umm, Irish politics has had a history of being militant from the conception of the state to this very day. Eamon de Valera, Michael Collins, Cuman na nGaedheal, Clan na Poblachta, The Workers Party, the militant wing of Fianna Fáil during the 70's, Pronsias de Rossa and his band of Stickies, etc, etc. Having 'terrorists' in politics is nothing new. What needs to happen is that the decomissioning talks must be restarted. Then Sinn Féin can secure IRA decomissioning and we can all be pals doing politics again.

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I have no doubt that the men responsible would have been found in a border field if we were sitting here in a situation like we had 10-15 years ago.

Well let me explain what happened tonight. The IRA have carried out community policing in the proveince for 30 odd years. They've killed maimed and murdered with impuity. They've done this because they claimed they had the mandate of the people in those communties.

They went to the Mc Carthy family to have them renew that mandate. They were refused.

You are believing who?

A former IRA man and hunger striker.......

You are believing who?

Who is the other side in my argument? I've used an example of the IRA's williness to create marytrs as cited by a former hunger strike, and the IRA's
williness to create maytrs, in the form of three men they wanted to kill in the name of good PR. I'm demostrating that in two seperate occasions they've offered their own means life up to further the cause

Probably not but if 2 BA sqaddies murdered an Irish civilian, the Army would not have fought ot keep them, re-instate them after their prison spell and promote one of them?

Elaspe time to bring in some accusations aganist british justice, when IRA justice is called into count, 10minutes. Defending yourself by damning the behaviour of another group is no defense. And the British army don't still have the death penalty which is why I used the US. However, what I will say is, in both the IRA and British army, justice for their victims families complain. You're no better than each other.

gt-redeye

Raskolnikov wrote:

Umm, Irish politics has had a history of being militant from the conception of the state to this very day.

OT perhaps, but:

I cant think of a country whose politics arent militant - don't most governments throughout the world have an army?

folk_smith

ReefBreak wrote:

During the troubles, the IRA murdered over 800 people that had NO CONNECTION TO ANY PARAMILITARY ORGANISATION. They committed atrocity after atrocity without remorse or regret - and they still have no remorse or regret. In fact Gerry Adams is on record as saying he is proud of the IRA.

Where are you getting your statistics here - thin air? the nether regions of your barking spider? How does any number of atrocities that you can drum up against the IRA compare to the rape and murder of thousands of Irish Catholics beginning with the Glorious Revolution until today by a ethno-centric, over zealous British Government. The fact is this - the protestants invaded Ireland beginning in 1688 and remain an occupying force in the region. I don't condone the killing of innocents, but if you want to talk numbers friend, your beloved England is at the heart of all the troubles.

Raskolnikov

gandalf wrote:

I am sorry too because you have walked into this banning.

Irish1 tells Reefbreak to 'fúck off' after Reefbreak calls anyone affiliated with Sinn Féin 'vermin' and Irish1 get banned.

Instead of bannings for one; why not just give these two kiddies a lash of the cane and make them shake hands?

Meh

folk_smith wrote:

Where are you getting your statistics here - thin air? the nether regions of your barking spider?

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html Fun fact: choose "religion summary" against "organization" to see that the IRA killed more Catholics (340) than the RUC (44) and British Army (254) put together!

How does any number of atrocities that you can drum up against the IRA compare to the rape and murder of thousands of Irish Catholics beginning with the Glorious Revolution until today by a ethno-centric, over zealous British Government. The fact is this - the protestants invaded Ireland beginning in 1688 and remain an occupying force in the region. I don't condone the killing of innocents, but if you want to talk numbers friend, your beloved England is at the heart of all the troubles.

The rest of us learned that "two wrongs don't make a right" back in primary school, I guess you must have been out sick that day.

Location: Lafayette, LA

I'm sure you have a great view of the situation in Ireland from your vantage point in Louisiana.

Raskolnikov

gt-redeye wrote:

OT perhaps, but:

I cant think of a country whose politics arent militant - don't most governments throughout the world have an army?

True but in most Western Democracies there aren't political groups who have members that are taking part or actively assisting 'terrorism' against other nations. Nearly 90 years after the Irish Free State is declared, we're still at it.

abccormac

I can just picture the meeting where they came up with this idea...
"Jaysus comrades, theres on awful lot of talk about criminality in the IRA going on these day. People don't seem tolike it! What'll we do?"

"Eh... We could offer to shoot some people?"

"I like the cut of your jib! lets do it!"

"They don't want us to shoot anyone? What now?"

"Release a statement about how we were prepared to carry out more criminal acts?"

"Jaysus, you've got all the ideas, I'll get the typewriter"

What planet are these people from? How did they think this would help? Until today I thought the IRA were playing a very clever political game, seeimg how far they could push things before they were called back to the negotiating table, but now I honestly belive the collective intelligence of this organisation is miniscule. Did they not realise the ammunition they would be handing to their opponents?

pogoń

Good pst Meh.

I like your 'fun facts', another interesting one being that the IRA are responsible for the deaths of more IRA members than all the other security forces combined.

However I don't believe sufficient light has been shed on Folk Smith's appalling ignorance.

For example his idea that Protestants came to Ireland in 1688.

But what would one expect from a nation where a significant proportion of the population believe themselves to have been victims of alien abductions.

gt-redeye

Raskolnikov wrote:

True but in most Western Democracies there aren't political groups who have members that are taking part or actively assisting 'terrorism' against other nations. Nearly 90 years after the Irish Free State is declared, we're still at it.

What about the USA and UK and their policies of attacking nations that might be thinking of attacking them (afghanistan, iraq)? Isn't that pre-emptive terrorism?

This is a whole new topic

gt-redeye

gt-redeye wrote:

What about the USA and UK and their policies of attacking nations that might be thinking of attacking them (afghanistan, iraq)? Isn't that pre-emptive terrorism?

This is a whole new topic

It is indeed a whole new topic, thats what the start new thread button is for, feel free to use it.
That said though,the U.S and U.K ask their people to give them a mandate based on their actions.
That in no way excuses all their actions from a moral/ethical stand point but at least the people of the country get a say

ReefBreak

folk_smith wrote:

Where are you getting your statistics here - thin air? the nether regions of your barking spider? How does any number of atrocities that you can drum up against the IRA compare to the rape and murder of thousands of Irish Catholics beginning with the Glorious Revolution until today by a ethno-centric, over zealous British Government. The fact is this - the protestants invaded Ireland beginning in 1688 and remain an occupying force in the region. I don't condone the killing of innocents, but if you want to talk numbers friend, your beloved England is at the heart of all the troubles.

The book Lost Lives should be compulsory reading for ridiculously ill-informed Irish-Americans who still love to quote made-up history from the 1600s. Oh, I assume you'll be handing over your house to a Native American any day now? Especially considering protestants have been living in Ireland for a lot longer than Europeans have been in America...

BuffyBot

Oops, that kinda backfired on them...

AmenToThat

ReefBreak wrote:

Perhaps not, but you do support a party that has real and definite links to the IRA. And that's where the problem lies. This whole off-topic issue begs the question: Yes or No, if it were proven that one or all of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness or Martin Ferris were members of the IRA Army council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin?

Allow this SF voter to answer you.
I believe they are members of the army council and I am glad men of such conviction were/are at the helm or I believe the conflict in the 6 counties would have been far far bloodier and I also believe we would be nowhere near as close to a lasting peace without their influence on the IRA or the direction of Irish Republicanism as the Irish government for the most part simply buried its head in the sand for much of the troubles while the British government fought a dirty war by contracted out much of its murder campaign to loyalist paramilitaries which engaging it widespread human right violations.

AmenToThat

Earthman wrote:

That said though,the U.S and U.K ask their people to give them a mandate based on their actions.

I dont remember any vote on the use of torture or human rights violations.

true

AmenToThat wrote:

Allow this SF voter to answer you.
I believe they are members of the army council and I am glad men of such conviction were/are at the helm or I believe the conflict in the 6 counties would have been far far bloodier .

The " men of such conviction were/are at the helm " committed many murders and atrocities in the seventies, and inspired / directed many more. They brought decades of terrorist strife to the Irish people. And you are glad for that.

AmenToThat wrote:

while the British government fought a dirty war by contracted out much of its murder campaign to loyalist paramilitaries which engaging it widespread human right violations.

LOL LOL. This is the sort of unfounded subjective tripe that was used to justify Enniskillem , Kingsmill, Le Mons, Black Friday , Warrington etc.

true

AmenToThat wrote:

I dont remember any vote on the use of torture or human rights violations.

I dont remember the Irish people giving that vote to the IRA either.

Slutmonkey57b

Can we please try and keep this on-topic to the statement released by the IRA?
I'm as bad as anyone else for going off on a tangent but this is getting ridiculous round here.

My position on the statement is simple - that this is the most obvious, and damning indictment of what the IRA is actually like, and what its position on "protecting" its community is. Single handedly, they have proved beyond a doubt that:
1: They engage in vigilante justice against the population they claim to be protecting.
2: They ignore the wishes of the population when making their decisions.
3: They have no real interest in the actual needs or wishes of the victims of any atrocity, only an interest in their own need to use a tragedy, of any kind, to justify their own bloodthirsty regime.

These are all points that the IRA, SF, and their apologists have been attempting to obfuscate, deny, and spin for years. For years they have been fighting off any accusations that "community policing" is anything but what they claim it to be - a "justifiable reaction" to a lack of a "real" policing solution in the North.

For over a month now the people of the Short strand, and the Irish people both sides of the border have been demanding one simple thing - that the police should be allowed to do their job normally, and that the due process of law should be followed. Both SF and the IRA have prevented this from happening. By refusing to recognise the PSNI, and go through the ombudsman, SF have ignored the fact that their own "community" has now recognised that the PSNI should be allowed to investigate this crime - that they do trust them to be impartial. But SF has decided that these people of the community can't be trusted to make up their own minds. Why not issue the documents handed to the ombudsman to the PSNI officer investigating the case? That's what the community and the family wanted.

The IRA, in its turn, has ignored the most simple, obvious and basic fact to come out of this case - that the people of the Short Strand, and the nationalist community, do not want these punishment beatings, shootings, and murders carried out. Yet their response to the request - the most basic request of the family, that the police be allowed to deal with it, is to say "Hey, you don't like people getting killed? Well, we can shoot some more for you? How's that?"

Incidentally, although I don't deny it may be entirely deliberate, is that the stalling, protecting of suspects, tampering with evidence, and deliberate media exposure has ensured that any suspects in this case handed over by SF/IRA will never get a fair trial and will probably get off on that technicality anyway. Fine "justice" for the people of the Short Strand indeed.

Slutmonkey57b

Also incidentally, before the debate gets dragged off on an obvious tangent, can we keep all the "well the British Army does X in Iraq..." to another thread? It's a different issue. We all know what the British Army has been caught doing in Iraq, and while there are similarities, there are also differences - and in any case it will just result in a spiral here of "well they do it too so na na na".