New IRA Statement - IRA offer to shoot man's killers

cdebru

Cork wrote:

If only the IRA could disappear like these 3 fugitives.

There have been more sightings of Elvis.



I feel that people now have courage to stand up to thugs where as before communities were under the thumbs of these thugs.

can i just ask a question people here tell us that SF and the IRA are the same organisation or two sides of the one coin etc

if that is true how can these comunities have been under the thumb of one side of a coin and freely vote in a sercret ballot for the other side

you can not have it both ways either the people see them as seperate and vote accordingly or see them as one thing and presumably would not vote for an organisation that was terrorising and intimidating them

which is it

Slutmonkey57b

That's a rather simplistic analysis. People under intimidation are hardly likely to express any sentiments objectionable to those oppressing them, the same is true of any people. They're certainly not likely to go out on polling day and think "you know, I want to be part of the UK because it's cheap. I'll vote unionist even though the bat-weilding thugs won't like it". More likely it would be with the caveat "but I can't vote like that because I live roung the corner from them. I'd better vote for the 32-county party instead." That's just a hypothetical example btw.

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

That's a rather simplistic analysis. People under intimidation are hardly likely to express any sentiments objectionable to those oppressing them, the same is true of any people. They're certainly not likely to go out on polling day and think "you know, I want to be part of the UK because it's cheap. I'll vote unionist even though the bat-weilding thugs won't like it". More likely it would be with the caveat "but I can't vote like that because I live roung the corner from them. I'd better vote for the 32-county party instead." That's just a hypothetical example btw.

mine is simplistic and whats your a university thesis

it is a secret ballot they could vote for anyone they like the SDLP for example various smaller parties, independents etc

Slutmonkey57b

cdebru wrote:

mine is simplistic and whats your a university thesis

it is a secret ballot they could vote for anyone they like the SDLP for example various smaller parties, independents etc

And when the results are published? The thugs may not know the actual names of the voters who voted against them, but they'll know that the people of the area didn't do what they were told.

Cork

Even if we see an end to the likes of the IRA and full and complete decommissioning - I believe some of these thugs will continue with racketeering and criminality.

People like the McCartneys see the merit of people going to the PNSI. SF/IRA have yet to encourage people to do likewise.

SF have no problems accepting funds from the British taxpayer. But their non acceptace of the police is absurd.

They had an opportunity to join the policing board and influence change.

But this is SF. A party that did not want to get involved in the politics of condemnation for 30 years of the IRA. But condemn many other things ad nauseum.

I would find it very hard to believe that this IRA statement was not authorised at the highest level.

FTA69

FTA69 was proclaiming they would be making a glorious victorious homecoming around christmas, a few months back.

Was I? Could you perhaps show me the thread where I proclaimed such a thing?

(I may well have stated my belief that they would return but I genuinely can't remember myself making such a post.)

FTA69

The relationship between Sinn Féin and the IRA is complex, they are not the same organisation and neither is responsible for the actions of the other. If Sinn Féin espoused support for the IRA statement well then yes, their stance on a lot of issues would be deemed hypocritical. But they didn't support it. They opposed it quite vigorously.

And when the results are published? The thugs may not know the actual names of the voters who voted against them, but they'll know that the people of the area didn't do what they were told.

Would you ever listen to yourself slutmonkey! Tell me, what massive "IRA intimidation" is going on in Waterford or Wexford or that bastion of IRA support, Meath? The fact is despite your conspiracies and bluster, is that Sinn Féin have the support of 342,000 Irish people and that that support is as a result of agreement with our analyses and our hard work on the ground.

Cdebru,

The Bart Fisher case is not as open and shut as one might think. By no means do I profess to know what happened exactly as I don't live in Derry but I do know that there are a range of opinions in the city to do with this case. What is not in question is the fact the De De McGinley was stabbed after himself and two of his friends confronted Fisher in Fisher's own flat complex. Many say that Fisher was chased into the complex by these 3 men (who were also alledged to be local hoods) and attacked and that the stabbing was in self-defense. What is not in question is that the judge passed a leniant sentence (3 years) as he seemed to share the same analysis.

I do not feel compelled to defend Fisher and nor do I have any experience of this case, I am simply pointing out it isn't as balck and white as some would make it out to be.

MT

If Sinn Féin espoused support for the IRA statement well then yes, their stance on a lot of issues would be deemed hypocritical. But they didn't support it. They opposed it quite vigorously.

Didn't some spokespeople for the party comment that it was a positive development?

Tell me, what massive "IRA intimidation" is going on... ?

Probably not 'massive', but you'd still agree that there is intimidation?

BuffyBot

they are not the same organisation and neither is responsible for the actions of the other

You know I find amusing? How they can't be "responsible" for the actions of each other, yet they can both have signifigant links and influence on each other - it's like best of both worlds!

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

And when the results are published? The thugs may not know the actual names of the voters who voted against them, but they'll know that the people of the area didn't do what they were told.

come off it you are not seriously trying to suggest that they vote for sinn fein because they are afraid not to
that is just silly

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

Cdebru,

The Bart Fisher case is not as open and shut as one might think. By no means do I profess to know what happened exactly as I don't live in Derry but I do know that there are a range of opinions in the city to do with this case. What is not in question is the fact the De De McGinley was stabbed after himself and two of his friends confronted Fisher in Fisher's own flat complex. Many say that Fisher was chased into the complex by these 3 men (who were also alledged to be local hoods) and attacked and that the stabbing was in self-defense. What is not in question is that the judge passed a leniant sentence (3 years) as he seemed to share the same analysis.

I do not feel compelled to defend Fisher and nor do I have any experience of this case, I am simply pointing out it isn't as balck and white as some would make it out to be.

would you take the word of a hungerstrikers wife about the actions of bart fisher

I came home from work and Bart Fisher was running around with a dagger and he came as far as my front window and he was shouting to young ones. He waved the knife in the air and then stabbed it into the grass in front of him. He shouted at the young fellas, 'this is what I did to Mousey and I will do the same to you. He was crying for his mammy when I was sticking it into him. You will scream for your ma when I stab you too.' … I saw Bart Fisher with a young fella on the ground so I walked up as far as the corner. He looked as if he was drunk and he had another couple with him. I went over to him and tried to calm him down and get him to return to his own home. They were going to stab the young fella with a knife and I went over and pushed them away. They had no masks. Bart Fisher said he was throwing stones at his window. Then his friends came from the IRA and put a gun to my head and told me to mind my own business. I later found out it was imitation but I didn't know this at the time … I am a republican and I don't want to see the Provos brought down but as far as I am concerned they shouldn't be letting scumbags into the Provos. This isn't what people fought and died for - scumbags. I vote Sinn Fein and I still support the Provos no matter what.

this is from Margaret Devine wife of hungerstriker mickey devine

MT

This is what today's New York Times editorial makes of it all.

March 12, 2005
EDITORIAL


The Bullies of Belfast

After 30 years in the paramilitary trenches, the Irish Republican Army is still capable of shocking thuggery, this time a wave of crimes culminating in a brutal murder outside a Belfast pub in January. That caused Sinn Fein, its political wing, to be disinvited from the White House celebration of St. Patrick's Day and sent its leader, Gerry Adams, scrambling for cover.

This is the least of the I.R.A.'s just deserts for brazenly covering up the homicidal behavior of some ranking members in the beating and slashing of the murder victim, Robert McCartney, over a petty dispute. It dispatched a team to wipe the pub clean of evidence and terrorize some 70 witnesses into silence. But the victim's sisters would not be silenced in their outcry for justice.

The White House was wise to make the McCartney sisters honored guests next week, leaving the I.R.A. stewing after its boneheaded attempt at expiation: it made a gruesome offer to atone for the murder by shooting those it knows were responsible. Mr. Adams made a belated show of denouncing criminality in the republican movement. But he hurt his cause by adding a defense of "those who break the law in pursuit of legitimate political objectives."

The Bush administration has called on Sinn Fein to see to the disbanding of the I.R.A. That's not likely anytime soon. But the I.R.A. needs to take some strong initial steps, starting with shedding its activities as a criminal enterprise. Its leaders should return to a more honorable agenda and stop dancing around the promise to begin formal disarmament. The fact that Mr. Adams is left squirming may be an opportunity to force progress in the standoff. Mr. Adams has a personal obligation, too, to repair the growing fear and despair in his own community by forthrightly guaranteeing the safety of any witness in the McCartney slaying.

FTA69

Didn't some spokespeople for the party comment that it was a positive development?

They said aspects of it were positive but they also stated that the line regarding shootings most definitely was not.

Probably not 'massive', but you'd still agree that there is intimidation?

Intimidation in Meath, Waterford and Wexford in order to "force" people to vote for Sinn Féin? Absolutely not, nor anywhere else for that matter.

FTA69

The incident you outlined was an inexcusable over-reaction on the part of Fisher to people attacking his home. As I said, I'm not here to defend Fisher or to try and portray him as some sort of upstanding character. Rather I'm trying to illustrate the complexity of the killing for which he is accused and to point out it is not a case of "mad Provos run wild on kiddies" or whatever Anthony McIntyre and co would have us believe.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

this is from Margaret Devine wife of hungerstriker mickey devine

You know cdebru,I'd almost prefer if I personally hadnt read that quote, but am glad that I did.
It sort of nails the lack of black and whiteness argument pretty well.
Is there any sign of an IRA comment on why this guy is in a Republican wing of a prison given why he was put in prison and is there any move to comment on his actions in the light of their experience with the mcCartney case?

Cork

Sinn Féin's Policing and Justice Spokesman Gerry Kelly, speaking shortly after the IRA statement was released, and shown on RTE's 9 O'Clock news last night who described the IRA statement as "a positive contribution" and "trying to enhance the process and facilitate the process of bringing some justice to the McCartney family, and I think it has advanced that process.. and I think it's a very strong statement".

Is this the SF stance on this statement?

FTA69

He meant that aspects of it were but that the offer to shoot those involved was unacceptable.

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

He meant that aspects of it were but that the offer to shoot those involved was unacceptable.

Where did he say that he meant that aspects of it?

FTA69

I was watching both him and Martin McGuinness on the TV, McGuinness said Sinn Féin was "disappointed" by this line in the statement but also pointed out that it was one line in a five page communique. He said the thrust of it (excluding that line) was positive as it sought to bring justice to the McCartney family.

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

I was watching both him and Martin McGuinness on the TV, McGuinness said Sinn Féin was "disappointed" by this line in the statement but also pointed out that it was one line in a five page communique. He said the thrust of it (excluding that line) was positive as it sought to bring justice to the McCartney family.

Everybody is in agreement about bringing those involved in the murder, cover up and subsequent intimidation to justice.

But people still have yet to start coming forward.

Justice will not arise - If people don't go to the police.

You cannot have an a la carte type of atitude to the justice system. I will co-operate with the courts but I will not go to the police.

FTA69

I believe Adams gave a list of 7 people to the police ombudsman. He also said people can go to the police if they so choose, I don't see how that is an "a la carte approach" to the subject.

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

I believe Adams gave a list of 7 people to the police ombudsman. He also said people can go to the police if they so choose, I don't see how that is an "a la carte approach" to the subject.

I could give you a list of 777 people. I could give you the entire telephone book.

Handing over a list of 7 names seems to me like a token jesture.

Encouraning eye witnesses to go to the authorities would be far more constructive in order to get justice in this case.

FTA69

I could give you a list of 777 people. I could give you the entire telephone book.

You could give me a list of 777 names provided by the McCartney family could you?

Encouraning eye witnesses to go to the authorities would be far more constructive in order to get justice in this case.

They have not stood in the way of those who wish to go the police so I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of your point to be honest.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

The incident you outlined was an inexcusable over-reaction on the part of Fisher to people attacking his home. As I said, I'm not here to defend Fisher or to try and portray him as some sort of upstanding character. Rather I'm trying to illustrate the complexity of the killing for which he is accused and to point out it is not a case of "mad Provos run wild on kiddies" or whatever Anthony McIntyre and co would have us believe.

attacking his home because he had been involved in killing of mark robinson not just attacking his home as a random act of thuggery

true

FTA69 wrote:

They have not stood in the way of those who wish to go the police so I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of your point to be honest.

Sinn Fein has not encouraged people to go to the police, which it should do. It has done its best over he years to alienate its community from the police, and done its best to stop people joining it etc. Not only that, but it is safe to assume , on past experience, that some members of the IRA are in Sinn Fein ( and vice versa) and would , by implication, label any of the 71 peole who were in the bar in Short Strand " informers" and murder / slice up them as well.
"Not stand in the way" me ****. !

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

They have not stood in the way of those who wish to go the police so I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of your point to be honest.

They have given people zero encoragement to go to the police.

What have SF to stop the intimidation of witnesses?

FTA69

cdebru wrote:

attacking his home because he had been involved in killing of mark robinson not just attacking his home as a random act of thuggery

To be honest I don't know the circumstances surrounding the whole case and neither do you cdebru, there are a range of widely differing opinions on this entire issue, and not all who disagree with the McGinley view on things are Sinn Féin supporters. McGinley was killed in a flat complex with 2 of his associates while they confronted one man. The fact they had smashed their way into this complex and hid under a stairway seems to be lost on many. This is by no means an open and shut case, equally it seems to me that all involved seem to be undesirable individuals to say the least.

FTA69

Sinn Fein has not encouraged people to go to the police, which it should do.

It has stated it has no problem with those who wish to go to the police, people make their own decisions in life, they are not robots who need to be programmed by Republicans in order to do something.

It has done its best over he years to alienate its community from the police

The police alienated itself with its passive and often active support for the forcible burning out of Nationalists, its sectarian makeup, its killing of children with plastic bullets, its shoot to kill policy, and most importantly its collusion in the murder of civilians by Loyalist death squads. Get a grip.

label any of the 71 peole who were in the bar in Short Strand " informers" and murder / slice up them as well.

This claim was made by unrepresentative thugs who have since been expelled from the IRA, even the McCartney family themselves have said the IRA as an organisation did not kill Bert McCartney but I suppose you know more than them true...

Squaletto

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

And when the results are published? The thugs may not know the actual names of the voters who voted against them, but they'll know that the people of the area didn't do what they were told.

Jesus Slutmonkey you are a laugh. Do you really mean what you are saying or are you pulling the piss!

Have a look here re information about democracy. http://www.nuffieldcurriculumcentre.org/fileLibrary/pdf/sheets1_3.pdf

There are loads of pictures so it will be easy for you.

Ciao for now

Ps when are you going back in your tree?

Slutmonkey57b

cdebru wrote:

come off it you are not seriously trying to suggest that they vote for sinn fein because they are afraid not to
that is just silly

No, I'm suggesting that the idea that IRA intimidation has no effect on people's voting is wishful thinking at best. The IRA doesn't have to have access to the voting register in order to keep its community in line.

By the same logic, I would have to agree that the catholic church had no influence over Irish voters for decades, which is obviously not the case.