New IRA Statement - IRA offer to shoot man's killers

monument

true wrote:

It has done its best over he years to alienate its community from the police, and done its best to stop people joining it etc.

So, Sinn Fein and the PSNI/RUC have something in common.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

No, I'm suggesting that the idea that IRA intimidation has no effect on people's voting is wishful thinking at best. The IRA doesn't have to have access to the voting register in order to keep its community in line.

By the same logic, I would have to agree that the catholic church had no influence over Irish voters for decades, which is obviously not the case.

Let’s make this clear - are you trying to say that the IRA intimidate people into voting for SF?

true

Quote :It has done its best over the years to alienate its community from the police, and done its best to stop people joining it etc.

monument wrote:

So, Sinn Fein and the PSNI/RUC have something in common.

I do not really understand the point you are trying to make. Various Catholic men and women did join the RUC, and the IRA murdered and intimidated them, to say the least. Iin fact the PSNI is 50% Catholic by law. It does its best to get Catholics to join, I often saw adds in the press south of the border advertising for PSNI applicants. I do not think Sinn Fein and the PSNI/RUC have that much in common. They are from the same part of the world, thats all.

monument wrote:

Let’s make this clear - are you trying to say that the IRA intimidate people into voting for SF?

I am not sure if that is what he meant, but in my humble opinion, for all its worth, I do not think it could have much effect, as people have - and always have had - the knowledge that voting papers cannot be traced back to individual voters.

However, in an IRA neighbourhood, I do not think my windows or car body may survive intact for long if I were to canvass or display loyalty to a unionist politician , for example. Likewise in a working class loyalist area.

true

true wrote:

Iin fact the PSNI is 50% Catholic by law.

That wouldnt be corect.
The PSNI is far from being 50% catholic.
It has a 50% catholic recruitment policy,ie positive discrimination in favour of catholics,as per the implimented part of Patten.
It would take quite some time for that to factor through to the make up of it.

true

Earthman wrote:

That wouldnt be corect.
The PSNI is far from being 50% catholic.
It has a 50% catholic recruitment policy,ie positive discrimination in favour of catholics,as per the implimented part of Patten.
It would take quite some time for that to factor through to the make up of it.

Apologies, you are correct. However, it is rightly going in the direction of being 50% catholic, even though the catholic percentage of the population is not as high as 50%. What else can they do ? More catholics would be in it if Sinn Fein / IRA did not have a policy of shooting people / putting bombs under their cars, at any time of the day or night . 24/7, who joined the police force.
Even now they discourage members of their community from joining it. They cannot have it both ways.

Cork

The police don't have physical evidence with regard to the McCartney case as It was distroyed.

People are still genuinely fearful to come forward.

What needs to be done here to get justice?

A Dub in Glasgo

I presume the other guy attacked (Devine?) has not given a statement to the police yet? (or the McCartney family). I would imagine he would have the best knowledge about what went on (aside from the actual people that done it).

Can anybody shed any light on this side of the murder?

monument

true wrote:

I do not really understand the point you are trying to make.

My point was they have common ground when it comes to alienating one community from the police.

true

monument wrote:

My point was they have common ground when it comes to alienating one community from the police.

Yes, both Sinn Fein and the IRA have done their best over the years to alienate their community from the police, and done its best to stop people joining it etc. ( Shooting those who joined , and putting bombs under their cars, was found to be a good way to stop them joining ).

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I presume the other guy attacked (Devine?) has not given a statement to the police yet? (or the McCartney family). I would imagine he would have the best knowledge about what went on (aside from the actual people that done it).

Can anybody shed any light on this side of the murder?

Yeah call me nuts the guy after getting his throat slit and beaten with metal rods gets more leaway about his time keeping about reporting events to the police than Mc Guiness running mate....

For those in the SF camp, 4 weeks of huming and hawing about approaching the police and i am getting sick about IRA apologists like Squallotto implying what he did to deserve this and you trying to shift the question of owning up the approach to the police to man viciously beaten.

MT

Excellent commentary from Vincent Browne at the weekend. He really lays into all those who'd apologise for or attempt to excuse the IRA's self-appointed role as a judicial authority and policing body. Not to mention the nutters who think its army council is the official government. However, I think it's important to note that he admits his former complacency in believing that such warped attitudes concerning the IRA's position had long since dissappeared. Thankfully, yet another influential commentator has hardened his stance in relation to the Republican Movement.

---

IRA insanity hasn't gone away, you know

13 March 2005 Sunday Business Post

By Vincent Browne

More than 30 years ago, I was in a house in Dublin with three IRA members and a friend who was not in the IRA. I was waiting to meet the then chief of staff of the IRA, Seán Mac Stiofáin.

He arrived at the house and entered the room. As he did so, one of the IRA people present leaped up, saluted and said: “On your feet. The chief of staff.” The others also leaped up and saluted.

My friend and I went into convulsions of laughter, which did not amuse the others - and certainly did not amuse the chief of staff.

The make-believe world of the IRA was, I thought, hilarious. They professed to believe all that codology, but you really didn't accept that they went along with it in their heart of hearts.

The truth is that they did - and they do. The IRA statement last week, which said they had offered to shoot the murderers of Robert McCartney, shows that the codology persists.

I confess I had long discarded the idea that anybody still believed that the legitimate government of Ireland was the IRA Army Council, which derived its authority from the first Dáil, elected in 1918.The idea is so stark raving bonkers that one assumes nobody could accept it.

So many people believe other pieces of baloney (I don't want to offend the sensibilities of churchgoing readers of The Sunday Business Post by being more specific) that, I suppose, anything is possible. But I was formidably challenged on the issue on the Tonight radio programme during the week by journalist Brendan O'Brien, and I have revised my view.

My God, there are people out there who think the IRA Army Council is the real government.

They think the IRA Army Council has a legitimate authority to set up courts martial, to try people, to sentence them to death and have them executed.

Not even the crudeness of the process offends them or causes them to demur.

I can see how people in particular circumstances might think that an injustice is so great as to justify resorting to violence to overturn it, although I do not accept that such a situation ever pertained in the North. I think it would have been legitimate to resist through force of arms the apartheid regime in South Africa, the Mobutu regime in Congo, the Nazi regime in Germany or the Stalinist regime in the old Soviet Union.

But I can't see how one might go from believing one had a right to resort to arms to overturn an otherwise unremovable unjust regime to believing the gobbledygook about deriving authority from an election that nobody who is still alive voted in.

There are headers who believe that. They are not like other headers, like those who think the problem of domestic violence has mainly to do with women, that daily colonic irrigation is a must, that there is any way back for Manchester United.

The headers who believe in the 1918 authority theory are not just quaint eccentrics who talk to themselves on the street or on Questions & Answers.

They believe they have a right to go out and murder people on the basis of this hogwash.

They are not just dangerous as other murderers are dangerous. They believe they have a divine right to murder, or at least a 1918 right to murder - which in their eyes is the same thing.

What is eerie about the IRA statement last week is that it is a reminder that this mindset hasn't gone away, you know.

Worse than that, the implication is that the likes of Gerry Adams buy into it.

However debonair that exterior, however media-savvy, however clever, far-seeing and dispassionate, there is another side of him that actually believes there is no legitimate authority in Ireland that does not derive its legitimacy from the 1918 election - and only the IRA Army Council can claim that.

Or at least he pretends to buy into that hokum, because he thinks so many others who matter to him do so.

Ask him whether he believes that the IRA Army Council - or any so-called authority associated with the IRA (you have to be careful, for they may have changed the names) - has any valid claim on the allegiance of Irish people or any justification to try people for offences, pass sentence and inflict punishment on them.

His reply would be along the following lines: “Well, you see, several institutions claim jurisdiction in Ireland, claim the right to try people, to sentence them and so on.

“As an Irish republican, I do not go along with that. I don't accept that any British authority has any valid jurisdiction in any part of Ireland.

“I think the Irish people are sovereign, and alone have the right to determine these issues.

“As for the IRA, that is a matter for them. Some republicans I know believe it has legitimacy, and, as far as I am concerned, it has more legitimacy here than the British do.

“Anyway, the whole point of the peace process is to put all these issues to rest and I don't think pursuing such speculative lines of inquiry is helpful or even relevant to that project.”

Somewhere during the course of this you will probably have been thinking about women being responsible for domestic violence, colonic irrigation, Manchester United or Questions & Answers.

There is a story told about Brendan Behan, who (according to the story) was sentenced to death by the IRA while he was in prison in England in the 1940s or 1950s.

When he was released from prison, he kept his head down for a few months, but eventually surfaced one night in Dublin, in Grogan's pub on South William Street.

It was a haunt of IRA latchicos at the time. Behan was already well on when he got there, and after six or seven more pints, he made a speech, directed at the IRA confraternity.

“You charged me in my absence, you tried me in my absence, you convicted me in my absence, you sentenced me to death in my absence,” he declared. “Now you can ****in' execute me in my absence.”

monument

true wrote:

Yes, both Sinn Fein and the IRA have done their best over the years to alienate their community from the police, and done its best to stop people joining it etc. ( Shooting those who joined , and putting bombs under their cars, was found to be a good way to stop them joining ).

I was saying both Sinn Fein and the PSNI/RUC have common ground when it comes to alienating one community from joining the police, but yeah if you want the IRA could be a third group who have common ground on this.

cdebru

you would expect a journalist like vincent brown to at least get the facts straight

the claimed legitamacy comes from the second dail elected in 1921 that was never dissolved because the civil war started

"In 1938, the surviving members of the Second Dáil Éireann, the legitimate government of the Irish Republic, dissolved itself (in accordance with a 1921 Dáil statute requiring it to do so should its membership be in danger of falling below seven), passing the mantle of legitimacy to the Army Council of the Irish Republican Army"

from here http://irishfreedom.net/dinner2005/RSF.htm


of course RSF believe the mantle of legitamacy is with the CIRA I would imagine

Sand

However debonair that exterior, however media-savvy, however clever, far-seeing and dispassionate, there is another side of him that actually believes there is no legitimate authority in Ireland that does not derive its legitimacy from the 1918 election - and only the IRA Army Council can claim that.

I can see how people in particular circumstances might think that an injustice is so great as to justify resorting to violence to overturn it, although I do not accept that such a situation ever pertained in the North.

Pffft, Vinnie Browne trying to act like he can see through Adams? Only last week he was cheerleading for SF/IRA by encouraging one of their politicians who bragged about exterminating British soldiers, and mocking and ridiculing another guest who disagreed vehemently with the SF/IRA lie that violence was necessary and inevitable.

After the bank raid he was demanding that McDowell be shut up and everyone keep everything going as normal. Before the deal he was arguing shure, what do we need decommissioning for - isnt it better if SF/IRA is heavily armed so they can deal out community justice.

He is quite definitly one of SF/IRAs useful idiots. Id rather he stayed cheerleading for the murderers of McCartney.

Squaletto

mycroft wrote:

Yeah call me nuts the guy after getting his throat slit and beaten with metal rods gets more leaway about his time keeping about reporting events to the police than Mc Guiness running mate....

For those in the SF camp, 4 weeks of huming and hawing about approaching the police and i am getting sick about IRA apologists like Squallotto implying what he did to deserve this and you trying to shift the question of owning up the approach to the police to man viciously beaten.

Hi Myculo sorry Mycroft,
I think you might be a little confused regarding my posts. Can you show me where I implied anything close to what you are saying in your above posting?
Fact of the matter is that you don't like real democracy because if you did you would accept the fact that SF are on their way up unlike the so called southern corrupt parties that you seem to support going by your constant anti republican whinging. Get a life my friend and face the facts and most of all don't invent stuff. Talking about apologists maybe one could say you are a British army apologist who fails to speak out about the Pat Finucane case, then again you probably don't know anything about the sickening murders committed by British agents and their gombeen men in Ireland. There is an expression out here in sunny italia which you might like, it goes like this, the mother of ignorance is always pregnant!!
Go work it out and get back to me on it!

Dimmi con chi vai chi ti diro chi sei.
Ciao

AmenToThat

mycroft wrote:

Yeah call me nuts the guy after getting his throat slit and beaten with metal rods gets more leaway about his time keeping about reporting events to the police than Mc Guiness running mate....

Despite the fact he was able to appear in court in Belfast today on two charges of extreme violence dating back nearly two years?

mycroft

Squaletto wrote:

Hi Myculo sorry Mycroft,
I think you might be a little confused regarding my posts. Can you show me where I implied anything close to what you are saying in your above posting?

I can't, but I know you did. I'm going to ask a mod to see if you've deleted any posts recently.

Fact of the matter is that you don't like real democracy because if you did you would accept the fact that SF are on their way up unlike the so called southern corrupt parties that you seem to support going by your constant anti republican whinging. Get a life my friend and face the facts and most of all don't invent stuff. Talking about apologists maybe one could say you are a British army apologist who fails to speak out about the Pat Finucane case, then again you probably don't know anything about the sickening murders committed by British agents and their gombeen men in Ireland. There is an expression out here in sunny italia which you might like, it goes like this, the mother of ignorance is always pregnant!!
Go work it out and get back to me on it!

Okay see you're just now flinging mud left right and center,

How do you know I'm not appalling by the murder of Pat Finucane?
I know plenty about both sides, my Dad was in Derry on bloody sunday, and I have family in the north and in Omagh, so, sneering about my lack of knowledge without knowing my background displays your own ignorance. I was born in the north and in the troubles, and my dad moved the family to do dublin because he didn't fancy watching his kids become grand wee fenians.

I submit it's easy for some wee fella in Italy sunning himself while drinking a grappa apertif to lecture me on my involvement in the north and my opinion. Too much of Irish politics have been didicated by Ex pats enjoying singing rebel songs, and talking about the fight against the brits.

Attacking the behaviour of the other side does not defend your own.

Dimmi con chi vai chi ti diro chi sei.
Ciao[/QUOTE]

Despite the fact he was able to appear in court in Belfast today on two charges of extreme violence dating back nearly two years?

Link?

AmenToThat

mycroft wrote:

Link?

6.30 tuesday evening news on BBC Northern Ireland.

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

Link?

http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=57912&pt=n

mycroft

AmenToThat wrote:

6.30 tuesday evening news on BBC Northern Ireland.

Having left my tardis in a belfast pub diguised as a loo, i'm afraid I missed that, a string of letters that isn't following a triple "w" and then a "." followed by a, possibly, long string of words, which could, potentially, former a sentence, followed by a "." and then an abbretiavtion like 'com" or "co.uk" is a link.

Or to misquote buffy.

Are we like going to have a monster sarcasm rally or like are you going to provide a supporting link to back up your claim?

.....

Pause fine cdebru knock the wind out of my sails....

Theres two points here, one Mc Carthy is not involved in the previous charge as is implied,

And two, we don't know if Devine hasn't already made a statement.

Ladies n Gentlemen the SF backlash starts here.

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

Theres two points here, one Mc Carthy is not involved in the previous charge as is implied,

And two, we don't know if Devine hasn't already made a statement.

i did not see any implication that robert mcartney was involved

someone asked if mr devine had made a statement as he would be the best witness

you went off on a rant about how he had more leeway having been nearly murdered

then someone posted that he was fit enough to be up in court today

you asked for a link

you got it

thats it

AmenToThat

mycroft wrote:

Having left my tardis in a belfast pub diguised as a loo, i'm afraid I missed that, a string of letters that isn't following a triple "w" and then a "." followed by a, possibly, long string of words, which could, potentially, former a sentence, followed by a "." and then an abbretiavtion like 'com" or "co.uk" is a link.

How very mature of you.

mycroft wrote:

Theres two points here, one Mc Carthy is not involved in the previous charge as is implied,

By whom?

mycroft wrote:

And two, we don't know if Devine hasn't already made a statement.

Its one of the SF bashers that claimed he didnt need to yet as he was still injured I just said he wasnt to inhured to appear in court.

mycroft wrote:

Ladies n Gentlemen the SF backlash starts here.

Just putting all the facts out there if you view this as 'backlash' then so be it but I must inform you that Im not a member of SF and it was the BBC and UTV who broke the story not SF.

mycroft

AmenToThat wrote:

By whom?

By whom what?

Its one of the SF bashers that claimed he didnt need to yet as he was still injured I just said he wasnt to inhured to appear in court.

We don't know if he made a statement yet.

Just putting all the facts out there if you view this as 'backlash' then so be it but I must inform you that Im not a member of SF and it was the BBC and UTV who broke the story not SF.

Checks your recent posts...

Thousands believe you, I dont'.

What the point of this fact, you're "just putting out there" Mc Carthy was gutted, beaten over a sustained period with iron bars, one IRA man, who denys IRA involvement, has a minor wound to his arm, and seeing as most reports claim he tried to intervene, it's plausible he was wounded by the IRA man, most reports claim picked up the knife, and then in the intervening struggle he was stabbed, probably, accidently, stabbed by the IRA man he was trying to hold back.

Let me ask you this. Does the potential criminal record of someone who's not Mc Carthy justify the sustained savage and brutal assault Mc Carthy underwent?

cedbru wrote:

you went off on a rant about how he had more leeway having been nearly murdered

then someone posted that he was fit enough to be up in court today

you asked for a link

you got it

thats it

Nope was working late, didn't know the facts and despite having the radio on missed the story, I asked for support, and when provided, I challenged the points on its merits.

It is not unusual for someone on boards politics to when presented with an unsubstanitated claim, to ask for an independent link to support said claim, and it is behold on the person who made said claim to provide the link

AmenToThat

mycroft wrote:

Checks your recent posts...

Regarding what issue?

mycroft wrote:

Thousands believe you, I dont'.

Well then why bother taking the time to repsond to my posts if you dont believe what I have to say, seems a very odd wat to operate to me but whatever gets you through the night I suppose.

mycroft wrote:

What the point of this fact, you're "just putting out there" Mc Carthy was gutted, beaten over a sustained period with iron bars, one IRA man, who denys IRA involvement, has a minor wound to his arm, and seeing as most reports claim he tried to intervene, it's plausible he was wounded by the IRA man, most reports claim picked up the knife, and then in the intervening struggle he was stabbed, probably, accidently, stabbed by the IRA man he was trying to hold back.

Let me ask you this. Does the potential criminal record of someone who's not Mc Carthy justify the sustained savage and brutal assault Mc Carthy underwent?

What it does do is show that hes not a reliable witness and is a scum bag to be condemned outright.
OOps, I forgot he hasnt been convicted of any crime yet.
Actually scrub that last line this is boards.ie so there is no need for any verdict of innocence or guilt in a court of law to condem someone one here unless that rule only applies to Republicans?
Actually scrub that as well as its a fairly good bet he was a Republican sympathiser himself, what other reason would he have for drinking in that particualr bar in/near that particularly unsavoury bunch of individuals?

AmenToThat

mycroft wrote:

It is not unusual for someone on boards politics to when presented with an unsubstanitated claim, to ask for an independent link to support said claim, and it is behold on the person who made said claim to provide the link

Its not unusual to be give a smart arse response in a cheap and immature point scoring exercise from some people using this website when a link is posted rather than a simple 'I dont understand what you mean' which would be far more civil and polite.

foxybrowne

It should have been Gerry refusing to meet Bush, not the other way round!

Squaletto

mycroft wrote:

I can't, but I know you did. I'm going to ask a mod to see if you've deleted any posts recently.


Okay see you're just now flinging mud left right and center,

How do you know I'm not appalling by the murder of Pat Finucane?
I know plenty about both sides, my Dad was in Derry on bloody sunday, and I have family in the north and in Omagh, so, sneering about my lack of knowledge without knowing my background displays your own ignorance. I was born in the north and in the troubles, and my dad moved the family to do dublin because he didn't fancy watching his kids become grand wee fenians.

I submit it's easy for some wee fella in Italy sunning himself while drinking a grappa apertif to lecture me on my involvement in the north and my opinion. Too much of Irish politics have been didicated by Ex pats enjoying singing rebel songs, and talking about the fight against the brits.

Attacking the behaviour of the other side does not defend your own.

Dimmi con chi vai chi ti diro chi sei.
Ciao

Listen Mycroft I didn't start the mud flinging as you put it. You accused me of being an IRA apologist, where did you get your information? I do not support the IRA or any army for that matter. You have tried to slur my character by doing the Mc Dowell on all people who don't fit cosily into your way of thinking. I am not Irish but I am a republican! Regarding your backround it is not important to me or anybody but I do know that the so called State is not innocent when it comes to terrorism. We had it here in the 70's and 80's. The Brits have to come to terms with their murkey past just as much as Irish republicans do. Both groups are still in existence in the north today. That is the real problem.
By the way I don't drink grappa! The last sentence of your last posting could apply to yourself by the way!!!
Ciao

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

Nope was working late, didn't know the facts and despite having the radio on missed the story, I asked for support, and when provided, I challenged the points on its merits.

It is not unusual for someone on boards politics to when presented with an unsubstanitated claim, to ask for an independent link to support said claim, and it is behold on the person who made said claim to provide the link

i see you selectively quoted my post

there was no implication of any wrong doing by robert mccartney by anybody here

dub asked a question about mr devine as to wether he had made a statement

you took that as a slur on mr devine and went on a rant

I don't believe that Dub in glasgow was in any way trying to denigate mr devine he was merely asking a question

the answer you should have given was you don't know end of story

instead you went off on one about he had more leeway mc guinnesses running mate etc

then AMEN simply pointed out that he was in court yesterday

there is no need for any arguement here

the simple answer is none of us know if mr devine has made a statement

end of story

mycroft

Squaletto wrote:

Listen Mycroft I didn't start the mud flinging as you put it. You accused me of being an IRA apologist, where did you get your information?

Well going through just a sample of your previous posts.

going by what one reads in the Irish newspapers on-line that is an easy thing to do! According to the Irish Independent and the ex Irish Times Northern correspondent the Ira would already be back killing innocent British soldiers who came to Ireland so as to keep the warring factions apart.

This 'clutching at straws' thing is quite fashionable these last few days alright! Just listen to the radio and Irish media! First there was the huge criminal SF money racket in Cork which gripped the country to no end only to fizzle out to nothing really. The SF guy was released and the only charges brought against anybody was a Real IRA guy and a box of Daz

Just a question or two for you, do you consider the brutal actions of the late Michael Collins and his troops of republicans during the 1918 campaign, criminality,terrorism or a mixture of both? Can you tell me if any of the Irish political parties have any links to this episode in Irish history?

Jb, So you think it was terrorism and criminal. I'm becoming more confused by the hour, here we are led to believe that Irish peoplle call Collins a hero for standing up against an evil empire bent on spreading imperialism. It seems strange that the people of Ireland are ashamed of their struggle but as you say different times and circumstances. Will the government tear down the statues and rewrite the declaration of independence so as to fit in to a holier image where Irish people can be seen as the peaceloving race that they are.

if you can justify the criminality of a bunch of republicans who founded the Irish state then you cannot preach to the rest of us.

Now after spewing all this, you justify yourself by saying "oh I don't support terrorism" When clearly theres a body of text that you've got behind you which implies that you do, you just don't flat out say it.

Onto the Mc Carthy killing

You say

In fact the family in question were avid supporters of SF before the tradegy. No violence like when it is between friends! Live by the sword....

Which implies they brought this on themselves, by supporting SF.

As for not starting the mud flinging

It's my opinion that you are the very person who wouldn't give the Mc Cartneys time of the day had it not been for this incident. All your postings have been anti Sinn Fein and it is rich of you to cite this tragedy to try and get one up on a fellow poster in this forum. Shame on you:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2421158&highlight=sword#post2421158

You've been doing nothing else since you wandered onto this site.

Potificating about a situation you've romantised.

And furthermore after wading through dozens of woefully formated posts to find little of genuine merit or insight, but some childish rants and oh so hilarious mispellings of Mc Dowell, to conclude that you're a worthy addition to my ignore list.

cdebru wrote:

I don't believe that Dub in glasgow was in any way trying to denigate mr devine he was merely asking a question

I respectifuly disagree.

TigerTiger

You are both acting like boys with toys

A Dub in Glasgo

mycroft wrote:

I respectifuly disagree.

A question was asked by me and you went off on one. There is nothing offensive about my question and nothing to justify the tangent that you decided to take.

Anybody who thinks that Devine will not know the whole story behind the attack and the people that carried it out is living in cloud cookoo land. If he has given that story, why have the police not arrested the perpertrators? They will have eye witness testimony and they can then try and get corroboration from others.