Best Mate Out

chump

Who's got the word?

Hit 80,90's on betfair this morning betting suspended with other bookies, what's goin on?,

ninebeanrows

Apparently they had a deal with the bookies.. 50:50

aw

IrishRacing.com says:

Best Mate out of Gold Cup
10th Mar: Best Mate will miss the Cheltenham Gold Cup next week after breaking a blood vessel on the gallops this morning.

The 10-year-old was set to bid for a fourth successive win in the Grade One event next Friday but trainer Henrietta Knight has confirmed he will not run again this season.

She said: "He has broken a blood vessel on the gallops this morning and he will not be running at Cheltenham."

masterK

Very unfortunate news, I wonder if we will ever see him again.

It does pose some interestings questions on the race now, I wonder if Tom Taafe will be more encouraged to run Kicking King now or will be see the dual entered horses such as Ollie Magern and Rule Supreme now go for the Gold Cup.

Baggio

Well,,,,there ya go Matey is out
,,,tell ya's the truth Ive always felt he was a bit soft ! sounds daft but he never really seemed to find much when asked in any races where he had to try a bit. Maybe this is the real reason he never ran much..coz of that softness and the possibility of breaking a vessel etc? . I often said it to my pals following races - that there was some hole in him that I couldnt quite figure out, but it was there.
Anyway people are saying everyone else in the race will be more encouraged and feel their task is easier?..I dont subscribe to that at all, I had Best Mate booked for 3rd this year with no hesitation, I could not see him winning it in anyway. No matter what connections say, he barely scrapped home last year, and this years race in all honesty was the first decent field he was going to face over the last 3 years.
So no...i think the race was open with or without him, I mean its not like he was Arkle..*he runs he wins period*..so there ya go. Weather will be crucial of course, but im leaning more and more to Beef Or Salmon and Grey Abbey having it between em, both dangerous horses to leave out of yer calculations.
They both handle good ground and soft, and have both got gears and decent form this year. Thats where my few Euro's will go.
Champion hurdle is turning into a race to watch!!..weather again the problem if its good Hardy Eustace wins, if soft anyone of the top 7 could do it, Arcordian Attoi needs it goood, but Jo Mac, Harchibald ,Hardy Eustace and Brave Inca could have a real scrap in the soft.
Champion chase Moscow will blow Azteryuppe away! he has 5 lengths on him, the sandown race he was only toying with the 2nd and 3rd and they were flat out,,ive no doubt if he stands he'll win by 3 lengths at least - people forget he was THE only hurdler that could rattle up Istabraq over 2 miles and no other around today could do that.

much more to come happy hunting folks

ciao'...Baggio...

PADDYPOKER

Kicking King is the winner.
You heard it first here.

tiedcottage

Would be surprised to see KK win, especially with a forecast now leaning towards possible soft ground, which I;m glad about, proper jump ground for the first time since Alderbook and Master Oats in 95. KK won't stay on soft ground in a bunch of Fridays. Of the Irish, Rule Supreme has to be the one, especially with Casey aboard.

As for Best Mate, sad though it is to see him go the way of so many triple champions denied a fourth for whatever reason (Arkle, See You Then, Istqbraq, etc), he would have found it the hardest field to beat since 02, but even then many ran below their best and he only scarped home against a horse like Comanche Court who, like Rough Quest before him behind Imp Call, was only a top class handicapper, if we're brutally honest (not that several of them haven't won GC's, see Cools Dawn and Ground).

As for him not handling soft ground, it just doesn't wash. Anyone who saw him as a novice sleuce up on very soft ground at Sandown will immediately kybosh that theory, and he chased home Barton in an absolute bog later that year over hurdles at Aintree, and Barton was some horse at his best. Basically, I think Best Mate was rather like Jodami, could come there going ominously well but rarely found a great deal unless those he was racing against were tiring. You can't knock a horse who won three GCs, because it'll never be done again in my lifetime in an age of generally a lot faster ground at championship meetings and increases in injuries to class horses. But he wouldn't have got within fifteen lengths of a Desert Orchid on a right hand track, let alone comparing him to the veritable immortals Golden Miller and Arkle, who are in a pantheon all of their own.

As for Jim Lewis saying he'll be back next year, think again. He's finished, if that sort of thing happens on the gallops, it'll happen twice as easily on a racecourse and there's less than zero point in running him if not anywhere near his best and, at the age of 11, too old to regain his crown after so many miles on his festival clock. An honourable retirement awaits, but it seems that like the connections of See You Then they have ideas he can reproduce his form and, in doing so, cloud the memory of his achievements. Even now I remember See You Then trailing in last in 1990 (and Make a Stand in 2000), a shadow of a shadow of his former self as much as I do him outbattling Flatterer to his third somewhat overrated crown in 1987.

Whoever wins the Gold Cup this year is on borrowed time, because once fit and healthy, Iris's Gift will make mincemeat of any of them in 2006 (I for one already have 50-1 about him for 2006).

Gear up, too for a record number of Irish winners at the festival, with major British players like Best Mate, Kauto Star, Fundamentalist, Iris's Gift, Rhinestone Cowboy, Lingo and Royal Rosa all missing, it's all set up for a dream St Patrick's week. And this Englishman doesn't begrudge it all, it'll make the meeting. But guys, let us win SOMETHING, the only championship race you have little hope of is the World Hurdle, and even that is French trained and for an Irish owner!

A friend of mine has a bet about 11 or more Irish winners at 66-1 and I wish I had his ticket.

jimi_t

tiedcottage wrote:

...of the Irish, Rule Supreme has to be the one, especially with Casey aboard.

Rule Supreme is looking nice for a place but is no value at 7/1. I'd still value Kingscliff - a strong horse with the staying power to win it. A much better place would be Pizarro at about 20/1 and maybe Sir Rembrandt

tiedcottage wrote:

Gear up, too for a record number of Irish winners at the festival, with major British players like... Rhinestone Cowboy... and Royal Rosa all missing

*cough* Not horses that should even be factored into the equation this year with so much young talent...A record number of Irish winners is certainly on the way though, but not from Jonjo's stables I predict his prize fish will be eaten alive out there - He's been picked as the 'banker' of Cheltenham by a good few newspapers and I'm looking forward to him being shot down in flames by Crystal D'Ainay

Baggio

Agree with most of what you lads have said....
,,,,state of the ground is gonna change a lot of things though,,so maybe keep yer euros in yer pockets lads. I would say on the Best Mate and previous GC winners etc.....Imperial Call was the best Chaser Id seen since Captain Christy, of alll the GC winners ive seen - at his best and injury freee he was a spectacular chaser, Rough Quest was a serious horse who had won the racing post chase with an easy cheeky run, won the national in a canter,,should have won the hennessy (only jamie osbourne went beserk and made the running on him!!)...but he should have won a lot more, and had come back from injury to put in some serious performances.
So Imperial Callput him firmly in his place as 7 year old.. for my money and having watched racing since 1970 or there abouts,,was THE goood one ive seen from here with no flaws. Such a pity he was put on his head that day in punchestown, ok O'Dwyer did accept the blame, and rightly so.,..but what a shame, he was a serious horse the others like DOrans Pride, Florida Pearl , Danoli..etc wouildnt live with him when he was on song and healthy.Quite honestly i dont think Best Mate would have either.Interesting last year to hear the Costelloe brothers who bread best mate and many others state that ALONG with Imperial Call, best mate is the best theyve bread,,I think that says it all.

Anybody got any vibes for the handicaps this year?..and what about Rule Supreme not running in the world hurdle?..madness!!..a race waiting to be snapped up, Ive no doubts he would do Barracouda who is NOT as good as he was and is there for the taking, Rule Supreme wont win the Gold Cup,,,but he would be veryy likely to win the stayers hurdle if theyd only let him at it.

ciao' amigos...Baggio...

applehunter

i don't understand why Kingscliff in favourite. He hasn't won any top class races IMO. He won the Hunters chase i think but thats for amateurs. He was placed in the King George. Kicking King has better form than him, as does Beef or Salmon.

Healio

Beef or Salmon = cant jump at speed.

masterK

It looks certain the Rule Supreme will be going for the Gold Cup, his price has drifted out to around 18/1 for the World Hurdle on Betfair. He can still be backed at 10/1 on Betfair at the moment for the Gold Cup, had a few quid on last night.

Looking through the Betfair price history for Kicking King, there is going to be a very few nervous people out there who have laid him at huge odds, there was €136 matched at 1000/1. Imagine the person who thought they could make an easy couple of quid and is no faced with the possibility of having to ford €136,000.

Healio

they have to have the money to lay it at that price.

Morgans

Strong rumours that Beef or Salmon will miss the race. Reported to have scoped dirty after his latest work out. News should be out seen after they take another scope this morning. I dont think Kingscliffe will stay, twice he has been at Cheltenham and twice he has crawled up the hill. If he was any use he would have caught KK at kempton and in the end beat Axertyuiop by 1.5l. A horse that didnt stay and was running on fumes from the turn in. Eyecatching but flattering. Just becuase they came from a point to point field doesnt mean that they will stay forever. If Kicking King stays he will win comfortably. I dont think that he will stay. If Rule Supreme stays on his feet, he will go close. I wouldnt recommend a place bet on him. It is either win or bust with the horse.

Chonaic

Morgans wrote:

Strong rumours that Beef or Salmon will miss the race. Reported to have scoped dirty after his latest work out. News should be out seen after they take another scope this morning. I dont think Kingscliffe will stay, twice he has been at Cheltenham and twice he has crawled up the hill. If he was any use he would have caught KK at kempton and in the end beat Axertyuiop by 1.5l. A horse that didnt stay and was running on fumes from the turn in. Eyecatching but flattering. Just becuase they came from a point to point field doesnt mean that they will stay forever. If Kicking King stays he will win comfortably. I dont think that he will stay. If Rule Supreme stays on his feet, he will go close. I wouldnt recommend a place bet on him. It is either win or bust with the horse.

To be honest i heard last friday that Salmon chances arent rated by hourigan, ive been laying him on betfair all week. Kicking king will stay if he gets to dictate the race, like the king george, if he can up the pace when it suits him, and keep it slow when it doesnt then he will piss in.

Morgans

Seemingly connections are happy to let BoS take his chance after all. reported to have scoped dirty after training yesterday though.

Morgans

Grey Abbey abd possibly Ollie Magern will prevent KK having it his own way up front. (getting an easy lead) and it wont be up to Geraghty which pace to set. Waht is critical is that the horse is ridden as if he gets the trip. He has the speed to get to lead at teh top of the hill, and make his way home from there. His jumping will put pressure on others fencing ability.

Chonaic

Im sure taffee will have him able to stay the trip, there is absolutely no question on his jumping, he pinged every fence bar one in the king george.

Morgans

Trainers have little chance of training stamina into horses. No matter how many times horses like One Man and Florida Pearl have had preparations geared around the Gold Cup, it is rare to have stamina trained into an animal. Just like it is almost impossible to train a dog to become a fast starter.

If horses do stay further as tehy grow older, it is at the expense of speed, and out of maturing into stronger animals. Kicking King might not stay this year as a 7yo he is still developing and will hopefully have pletny of opportunity to stay as 8yo or older.

Have to remember that he was put into his place by BoS over 3m this season. This was due to the fact that Geraghty didnt use the horses jumping to his best advantage, and that Down Royal has a stiff hill. Added to the illness of last week. He needs to be fully recovered to have a shot.

allin-king

i think its between kingscliffe and grey abbey, as much as i like rule supreme he hasn't got a of winning imo, nor has beef or salmon for that matter and i think he has rule supreme covered on form

oh and maybe celestial gold for e/w value

tiedcottage

Sorry, Baggio, it was great for the Irish to win the Gold Cup with Imperial Call, but only a madman wouldn't say that he only one because One Man didn't get the trip, because it's a fact (Imp Call could never have put up a perf to match OM's in the Sandown King George) but there were too many flaws, too many times he just didnt perform and a team that offered more excuses than Henrietta Knight and Michael Hourigan put together. They were justifiable excuses, but excuses just the same. Rough Quest won a national, but not in a canter, it was the weakest National in recent years in quantity and quality and on that weight he should have won it much easier, should have been disqu for interfering with Encore en Peu, was well stuffed into fourth in the Sun Alliance of his year, and was stuffed with even easier ease by One Man in the King George in 96 and winning the Racing Post cheekily means nothi9ng (no horse won more cheekier than Marlborough in the Will Hill Chase a few years back, but he was well short of Gol Cup winning class). Yet had Mick Fitz not given RQ too much to do at the top of the hill, he might have beaten Imp Call. Imp Call was good as long as he was able to take up the running and dictate the pace, but he even failed to pass Danoli in the Irish Hennessy when seeming to canter and got well and truly stuffed behind Teeton Mill in the King George when there was talk of him nearing his best. I don't deny he had a lot of injury problems, but that's just unfortunate, better that than the fates of French Holly, Gloria Victis, Strong Promise, et al.

I would say if I had t place overall chasers since 1980 it would be Desert Orchid, Burrough Hill Lad, One Man. Imp Call and Best Mate may be together in ratings as the Costelloes said as both had flaws, and he was certainly better than Florida Pearl by some distance. BM winning three relatively weak Gold Cups has put him in a pantheon by default.

The reason I fancy RS is the ground and the jockey combo. I fancied KCliff before the forecast of rain, but I have doubts now. RS's biggest danger is Grey Abbey, who''l gallop all day on the soft and it will take a hose with a finishing kick to beat him, and RS fits the bill.

Chonaic

Morgans wrote:

Have to remember that he was put into his place by BoS over 3m this season. This was due to the fact that Geraghty didnt use the horses jumping to his best advantage, and that Down Royal has a stiff hill. Added to the illness of last week. He needs to be fully recovered to have a shot.

Have to disagree there, it was more the slow pace of the race.

tiedcottage

I'm with Morgans re KK, he won't stay. One Man had more chance of staying, as he was ridden wrong (you don't hack up over 3¼m in the Hennessy at 6 in soft ground and then fail to get beyond the 3m point on good ground in a slow Gold Cup like 96 unless it's something else other than pure stamina). I think it was equally a pshyical defect with One Man, who should always have been ridden from the front. Though not to the same degree, FPearl was the same, his best race being his King George win when he emulated One Man, hitting the front at halfway and nothing could get past him.

KK won't stay, he's a 2½ to 3m horse. Nothing to be ashamed of there, just a fact. As for those who say the Gold Cup isn't the same without Matey, perhaps, but I have always felt he benefitted from so many potentital great horses of his generation or just before being denied the limelight (French Holly, Monsignor, Gloria Victis (who lest we forget would still have been only 11 this year), et al. Remember another horse called Cottage Rake who won three Gold Cups at the end of the forties, but came on the back of an even greater horse, Prince Regent, who lost his great years to the war and who is generally seen alongside MHouse, DOrchid, BHLad and L'Escargot in the silver pantheon behind the Miller and Himself.

What I think is good is that it's going to be a proper soft ground Gold Cup for the first time since Master Oats ten years ago. Injuries should hopefully be down and proper National Hunt types should come to the fore.

Baggio

Tied Cottage
well I agree with SOME of yer opinions, BUT - make no mistake Imperial Call was superior to One Man! and would have beaten him on any course, He had won over 2,2 against a seriously good horse in Strong PLatinum ,,,,and 2 and a half and 3 before 3 and a quater, a class act. When being beaten in the King George behind Teeton Mill - anyone with sense could see they had done too much with him in his comeback year, that was his 5th run in 2 and a half months!!.(compare 3 runs for Best Mate in a whole season as a fit horse??!!!) wayyy too much for a horse coming back from injuries etc, and Im sure in hindsight his connections would have been happy to not run that much but probably thought well while they hjave him right they may aswelll run him etc.
I backed him for that seasons Gold Cup , which See More Business won , had him at 50/1 what eejits had him at that price?!?1..he would have spun in, but was withdrwan on the eve of the race, coz his blood was wrong, I agree the excuses DID used to to do my head in too....but hey there ya go. He re-appeared and demoshed Florida Pearl and Dorans Pride at punchestown in a performance of utter class. You are wrong - regarding him not passsing Danoli in the hennessy in 97 , that was after a major badd prep, due to the fall in punchetsown, he would have demolished Danoli and co if he was right, again anyone with eyes could see as he was passing Danoli he blew up, it was obvious.
Ive kept all the video's since 91 of the major races and its fun to look em over now and then,...... One Man's win at sandown??..give me a break! what was second??.Master Oats returning from problems, his comeback run, "a field of has beens" was my reaction at the time apart from Merry Gale who was a class act, and another who was well able to beat One Man over 3 miles, sadly for him his wind went in that race, that was a pity. One Man was a decent horse he had to win the 2 miler in 98 was it? Ask Tom was faveourite a dubious fave if ever there was one, so was no surprise at all that One Man won it,,,, Again if Imperial Calll had run ( a horse with proven top form over 2,2 ) he would have mopped em up too.
By RS you mean Rule Supreme??..listen dont be crazy he WONT win the GC he would win the stayers hurdle...Its madness going for Gold, he's 6/8 lenghths to make up on Beef Or Salmon, (forget the hennessy B or S was wrong that was obvious) Grey Abbey is a biig danger and B+S is the class horse, but all the top 8 in the betting do have chances.

ciao' amigo...Baggio....