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Is the Whole US Military Shannon thing a bit exaggerated
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i suspose what i meant by a public vote was a referendum on neutrality, that sort of idea0
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ionapaul wrote:A public vote on this matter (or a similar situation) would be farcical IMHO and would lead us down the road to mob rule - if we had a vote to reduce income tax, I'm quite sure it would pass, despite the immediate or longterm consequences!
I wouldn't be too sure.
The Swiss have such votes, invluding such things as taxation increases/decreases, and you'd be surprised what the majority often decide when both sides put their case.
The government over here, for example, spell out what they will have to do in order to keep their books in order. When told straight up that the impact of (as was just the case...in the last two weeks) that a proposed vut of 10% of the current cantonal tax would result in the Bernese canton having to cut expenditure in health, education, public employee salaries and benefits amongst other things.....the public don't always think as blindly as you might expect.
Now sure...such discipline may not come immediately upon implementation of such a system, and there is the almost-certainty of some hard lessons having to be learned, I would point out that it can work.
Up until our facilitation of troop-movements, I would have said that Ireland was militarily neutral, whilst politically very much not so. Now, I would say that our militaristic naetrality is - at best - of a questionable nature. While we did not get listed amongst the coalition of the willing, we did give substantive physical aid to one of the combatant sides.We are clearly not neutral with regards our dealings with the US, UK and other Western nations.
The Swiss government, to overwhelming public support (the Swiss are very quick to use their right to demand a referendum when they are strongly moved, and there was no hint of one to force Calmy-Rey to resign her post in reprecussion for the stance the Swiss took regarding this particular aspect of foreign policy.Equally, we (and Switzerland and others) are happy to reap certain benefits due to our relationships with other friendly nations, without contemplating recognised reciprocal actions or arrangements.
Strange as it may seem, the Swiss put their neutrality before their economy. They simply were not influenced by the however-possible financial reprecussions it may have had.This all needs to be examined in depth - otherwise we will continue down the path of 'covertly' helping out the US and UK when asked and seeing a growth in public anger, confusion and frustration.
The reason I mention the Swiss just above is because I think the reality is that despite how much fear, uncertainty and doubt was spread around at the time, the Swiss case shows that the rumours of our (Irish economy's) demise were almost certainly grossly exaggerated.
Despite Bush's bold, populist declaration, the US don't truly believe that you must be with them or against them. They respected the right of the Swiss to remain apart, and there was nothing said or done when they sided with those who opposed military action. While the French and others were villified for not taking their usual place on the field, the Swiss stood where they've tried to stand for some time now - on the sidelines, peacefully opposing conflict simply by objecting to it.
That's neutrality, and it was accepted. To do otherwise would, at the very least, have proven counter-productive. The US, fighting for freedom and democracy cannot be seen to try and bully or punish a democratic and free nation for choosing to retain its claim to neutrality.
While I would not suggest that the use of Shannon has put Ireland on a slippery slope where we will inexorably lose any claim to neutrality, but we have most certainly damaged the stability of the platform on which we stand apart.
jc
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Hi Bonkers! you quoted information from the Clare Champion (but couldnt remember what issue) Here is a link to previous issues for Jan/Feb:
http://tinyurl.com/4o3nl
I'd love to read your source!
BTW - speaking of Shannon: I read recently that Martians were spotted passing through there ecorted by IRA millitary personnel - beleive that I read this was quoted in alqaeda.com - can someone help find me the link?bonkey wrote:What constitutes a serious contribution? Indeed...what contributes contribution at all?
If assisting in the transport of over 100,000 troops (from memory - a number I saw in the Clare Chamion in late Jan / early Feb) doesn't constitute a major contribution, what does?
Also, I believe the US refused to pay some airport charges (from same article), which means that as well as contributing logistical support, our government (who paid the airport in their stead) has directly contributed to the funding the military operations in Iraq (assuming the information I recall reading was correct).
Does any of this constitute contribution? If so, how much further would we have to go before it would constitute serious contribution?
jc0 -
http://www.clarechampion.ie/clch/www/index.asp?magpage=1&issid=34&issdate=Friday%2C+11+March+2005&issarch=0&topcatid=&catid=&id=2940
:rolleyes:
in particular
Figures released by the Department of Foreign Affairs show that 158,549 US troops passed through Shannon Airport in 2004 compared to 125,855 in 2003. The figures indicate that these troops arrived on 1,502 charter flights and that there were also 753 military aircraft carrying munitions.
&
Firstly, there’s the €3 million in air traffic control fees that the Pentagon refused to pay last year, and which was paid instead by the Department of Transport. Then there’s the extra security for the military.
“The new cameras and motion detectors are not cheap and the extra Garda and army overtime cost is estimated at over €20 million - about half of which was on the weekend of the Bush visit to Clare.
edit: well I'm surprised to see that our sceptic has been silenced.0 -
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We're historically "non-aligned" rather than neutral. Personally, I'd favour Ireland changing it's policy and joining NATO and any EU forces that come into being but I recognise that a lot of people disagree with that[1]. I'd like to see a serious debate and referendum about it some time though.
[1]: although I'm honestly not exactly sure why they support a continuation of non-alignment policy other than "because it's what we've always done". For those that support neutrality/non-alignment, why do you?0 -
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No, it is underplayed. I got a phonecall from Shannon recently from a member of the American military, separately he confirmed they were carrying personal weapons (pistols and rifles) in the cabin which while permissable, probably didn't have Irish government approval, which they required.Is the Whole US Military Shannon thing a bit exaggerated
Phoenix Magazine (current edition) reports that Iraqi registered aircraft are now being used.AmenToThat wrote:The two private jets the Americans use to illegally (no extradition process or trial) transport people to countries for torture and murder regularly stop over in Shannon on their journeys and to me that is a big deal.
There is legal fuzziness, but I understand under Irish law (as opposed to internation law), its a matter for the government to approve. Of course, the government simply doesn't look.DadaKopf wrote:No, because it's actually against Irish law for uniformed personnel, military planes, vehicles and weapons to pass through Irish territory, unless justified on the basis of something like a multilateral UN action.
Quite possibly the first beer they've had in 12 months. But ultimately we have sold our souls.The same article also had a 1/2 page picture of the bar in Shannon airport rather full of people wearing US military outfits.
On a 12-15 hour trips are you saying you wouldn't get off the plane? What with beer within a stones throw having been dry for 12 months?For starts the 100,000 didn't turn up on day. Troops rarly leave transports, while they're refueling. Occasionally if theres a problem the get out n stretch their legs.
How about we sell more cocaine to teenagers then? Should we really prostitute ourselves?Its doing the Irish people no harm, the more planes that land, the more fuel they buy, the more money for the economy.The only harm that comes to the Irish people as a result of this when crazy people run out onto the tarmac (dangerous and stupid in itself) and batter planes with a hammer.Yes, giant inflatable hammers. :rolleyes:
Something like once every three week IIRC, although I don't recollect what the basis for this limit was (fresh water maybe??). I don't know how that was applied to aircraft. Regarding aircraft in WWII, it was down to whether the aircraft came down on the east or west coast. East coast meant war zone, west coast meant emergency landing. All very convenient that the Germans tended to land on the east coast only, but logical just the same.Victor (I think) posted something up here way back about how in the old days, ships could dock to a very limited extent at neutral ports. Anything more than that extent was considered a breach of neutrality as the port was providing significant material assistance to one participant.
As did Austria.The Swiss (as I've often pointed out) went so far as to refuse air-space access to war-related flights (typically to/from the US bases in Germany).
It's not a crime to stop a bank robber.The woman did us harm because she is making the Irish look like a buch of uncontrolable people. If you want to protest fine, but to commit illegal crime. Any country supporting or against the war isnt going to say thats great, she commited a crime.
I disagree, letting them land here as opposed to say Germany, materially increases their range while carring cargo. It is a force multiplier (X palnes can do the job of X+Y planes) and as such is significant aid.I agree there are better circumstances to get money, but right now those are the circumstances. Letting aircraft land is not significant aid, it is just being nice. Significant aid is letting them land, re fuel, re arm and train here.
It's about how often it happens and whether the country is at war or not. During the Vietnam War, American planes landing at Shannon weren't on their way to Vietnam.Whats the differance to a ship docking and probably re fueling and taking on food, and an aircraft landing and re fueling.
Ironic that the main reason we needed to protect it was GWB.The truth however is probably as simple and mundane as this: the government flogged landing rights in return for post - Sept. 11th airspace cover from RAF and USAF jets.
Remind me which side had the most nukes pointed at Ireland?In previous conflicts, when the going gets rough, we are always happy to shelter under these countries umbrella ( WW2, the cold war etc ).
Are you saying those countries are poorer for having received trained graduates? :rolleyes:We should remember who our friends are in the world. Only 10 or 15 years ago our gratuates were leaving in thousands to get jobs in the USA and UK.0 -
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"Every Soldier a Rifleman"?Were every single one of these 100,000 troops, combat troops?
Actually the Swiss have treaty obligations not to go to war or aid others (Swiss mercenaries were casuing problems for/to neighbouring countries).Equally, we (and Switzerland and others) are happy to reap certain benefits due to our relationships with other friendly nations, without contemplating recognised reciprocal actions or arrangements.0 -
Victor wrote:Are you saying those countries ( USA / UK ) are poorer for having received trained graduates? :rolleyes:
It was not just graduates who left Ireland 15, 20, 50, 60 , 100 years ago : it was all sections of society, from west of Ireland rural folk to city drop outs with no education. The UK and US gave many of them good jobs, and opportunities. Also there are many Irish people holding down well paid jobs in American multi-nationals here in Ireland. America and its allies are bringing elections and democracy to Iraq : would you prefer Saddam Husseins form of democracy ?
We should remember our economic interests , if you cannot see the moral argument in defeating Saddams regeime.0 -
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true wrote:It was not just graduates who left Ireland 15, 20, 50, 60 , 100 years ago : it was all sections of society, from west of Ireland rural folk to city drop outs with no education. The UK and US gave many of them good jobs, and opportunities. Also there are many Irish people holding down well paid jobs in American multi-nationals here in Ireland. America and its allies are bringing elections and democracy to Iraq : would you prefer Saddam Husseins form of democracy ?
We should remember our economic interests , if you cannot see the moral argument in defeating Saddams regeime.
The same saddam hussain that was put in power with the help of the cia?
the same saddam hussain that was supported for over a decade by the US and the UK and the western world turned it's back while he committed unspeakable crimes?
America and it's allies have supported many dictators and corrupt regimes and terrorist organisations for a long time now and continue to do so to this day. They have proved that they are not interested in democracy or freedom. The current situation in iraq is not democracy, but conquest, and plunder.
However there will always be people who fail to realise the truth, and ironically despite your name you are one of them. Be blinded by false american propaganda, and be impervious to the lessons of history that show america's intent.
If economic interests are what count, then i guess you think it should be able to rob people and murder others for money.0 -
No.Memnoch wrote:If economic interests are what count, then i guess you think it should be able to rob people and murder others for money.
But money talks,its what has got so many people to come back to Ireland and its what has stopped the tide of emmigration from this country, theres no doubt that America has played a large part in that and that politicians here consequently are very warey of upsetting our benefactors lest we lose too many jobs as a result.
I'd be more interested in finding out if a poster with views such as yourself would be prepared to leave this country in protest over our tacit support for the U.S war effort? Otherwise I'd be inclined to think you too put a price on staying here and the price isnt high enough to avoid paying taxes to a government that subsidises U.S landing charges at shannon.
What country could you go to, to best avoid any support for the U.S regime or at least the lowest possible? Switzerland probably.
I hear Bonkey in another thread say Ryanairs fairs have came down a lot, but you may go by timber boat(and close your eyes along the rest of the route as I cnat rule out an america free rest of your trip) because they use boeing planes and theres lots of taxes there going to the U.S war effort.
Dreadfull isnt it?0 -
Memnoch wrote:The same saddam hussain that was put in power with the help of the cia?
the same saddam hussain that was supported for over a decade by the US and the UK and the western world turned it's back while he committed unspeakable crimes?.
Saddam Hussein was considered the lesser of two evils when Iraq was at war with Iran, which is a long time ago. And what crimes did Hussein commit then , that we knew of then , that would not have occured anyway ?
LOL. The US , along with other allies like the UK and Australia, have in the last 100 years opposed and seen off the worlds most evil regimes, namely Nazism and Stalinism / communism as in the cold war. They also booted Hussein out of Kuwait in Gulf war one, but they stopped that war too early and learnt their lesson, as Gulf war 2 was just finishing the job. Also Galteri was booted out of the Falklands with some US satellite / intelligence info etc: Argentina was hardly a hotbed of democracy at the time, with thousands of disappeared etc. In fairness to the US and UK, does that happen there ?Memnoch wrote:America and it's allies have supported many dictators and corrupt regimes and terrorist organisations for a long time now and continue to do so to this day.
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I am not saying the US and its allies are infallible - far from it - but they are the best the world has got and think of how the world would be without them.
LOL. Plunder? It is cost them billions, plus hundreds of lives.Memnoch wrote:They have proved that they are not interested in democracy or freedom. The current situation in iraq is not democracy, but conquest, and plunder.
.Memnoch wrote:However there will always be people who fail to realise the truth, and ironically despite your name you are one of them. Be blinded by false american propaganda, and be impervious to the lessons of history that show america's intent.
If economic interests are what count, then i guess you think it should be able to rob people and murder others for money.
No I do not think anyone should be able to rob people and murder others for money : that is why the world needs a policeman. In the absense of anyone else having the balls to oppose people like Bin Laden and Hussein, America and its allies have to do the dirty work. Appeasment does not work : history shows that - look at Hitler. Appease men like Bin Laden you get more 9/11's, appease men like Hussein and besides torturing and killing his own citizens, he becomes a danger to the world - not just Kuwait - when he develops nuclear weapons, and because he controls so much oil. Yes, the dirty word oil, and you will be the first to complain when there would be none for your heating or your car.0 -
Saddam Hussein was considered the lesser of two evils when Iraq was at war with Iran, which is a long time ago. And what crimes did Hussein commit then , that we knew of then , that would not have occured anyway ?
The lesser of two evils? If asked to choose between a secular oppressive dictatorship and a Muislim oppressive dictatorship I'd pick neither to be honest. In fact the last thing I would do would be to arm one side with weapons of mass destruction which would be used to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent teenage conscripts.LOL. The US , along with other allies like the UK and Australia, have in the last 100 years opposed and seen off the worlds most evil regimes,
Yes, Australia over the past 100 years really has been a bastion of freedom hasn't it? Ask the "Forgotten Generation" of Aboriginies who were torn from their homes to cowtow as servants to white families about "freedom" and "deomcracy". Not to mention England and America's actions over the past 100 years, the countries India, Egypt, Grenada, Jamaica, Chile, Nicaragua and Kenya come to mind.Argentina was hardly a hotbed of democracy at the time, with thousands of disappeared etc
If we want to talk about democracy maybe you might want to refer to the democratically-elected president of Chile Salvador Allende who was murdered by a US-backed right wing coup?think of how the world would be without them.
I'd imagine it would be a lot better off.Plunder? It is cost them billions, plus hundreds of lives.
It cost the American exchequer and the American working class billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. The American capitalists however, eg Cheney's Haliburton, made a killing. Nobody is pretending the American government acts for the American people, it acts for the wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US.0 -
What "weapons of mass destruction " did America arm anyone with in the Iran / Iraq war? Gas was available in Iraq already was it not ? And besides, the Iran Iraq war was a long time ago, the west has striven to learn from its past mistakes.FTA69 wrote:The lesser of two evils? If asked to choose between a secular oppressive dictatorship and a Muislim oppressive dictatorship I'd pick neither to be honest. In fact the last thing I would do would be to arm one side with weapons of mass destruction which would be used to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent teenage conscripts..
Yeah, coming from "free West Waterford" you would know a lot about Aboriginies in Australia. What does being alledgedly "torn" from their homes 100 years ago to alledgedly "cowtow" as servants to white families have to do with anything?FTA69 wrote:Yes, Australia over the past 100 years really has been a bastion of freedom hasn't it? Ask the "Forgotten Generation" of Aboriginies who were torn from their homes to cowtow as servants to white families about "freedom" and "deomcracy". ..
Many other things also happened in Chile; none of these events had a hundreth or a thousanth as big a bearing on world freedom and democracy as WW2 and the cold war for example, subjects you conveniently ignore because you know the US and UK were right.FTA69 wrote:If we want to talk about democracy maybe you might want to refer to the democratically-elected president of Chile Salvador Allende who was murdered by a US-backed right wing coup?.
What, where would all our emigrants have gone if there was no US or UK ? And no money to be sent home from these countries ? And no secend biggest contributer to EC funds, whichIreland has benefitted massively from ? And no inward investment from US based factories , bringing billions of euros in to the Irish economy each year. Not to mention nobody to protect us from Nazi facism , or Stalinist Russia. Oh maybe you would like our Jews, our homosexuals, our communists and our gyspies to be sent to concentration camps, which happened in the neutral countries in Europe Hitler invaded.FTA69 wrote:I'd imagine it would be a lot better off..FTA69 wrote:It cost the American exchequer and the American working class billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. The American capitalists however, eg Cheney's Haliburton, made a killing. Nobody is pretending the American government acts for the American people, it acts for the wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US.
LOL "Nobody is pretending the American government acts for the American people". The ordinary americans are as downtrodden and impoverished and lack opportunity more so than any other country in the world. All they need is a NARA ( Native American Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture, should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Yanks out, peace in ! America for the native americans.0 -
true wrote:
Yeah, coming from "free West Waterford" you would know a lot about Aboriginies in Australia. What does being alledgedly "torn" from their homes 100 years ago to alledgedly "cowtow" as servants to white families have to do with anything?
.
Rolls eyes.....
And coming from, I'm assuming, Ireland, or at least Western Europe you have a right to preach about whats good for the middle east?
As for the alledgedly, the, behaviour of the australian government to the indignious people of its country has long been documented, and there is an impressive body of historical documents, facts, films, books, etc....
Familys were driven apart, children taken away, and forced to act as servants to landed gentry.
I would suggest you try to take your revisionism elsewhere.0 -
true wrote:It was not just graduates who left Ireland 15, 20, 50, 60 , 100 years ago : it was all sections of society, from west of Ireland rural folk to city drop outs with no education.
Low-skilled workers were needed, and are still needed in the US - there is a reason the US leaves the Mexican boarder unguarded, for all but a little window dressing.true wrote:The UK and US gave many of them good jobs, and opportunities.
The US and UK needed them to fill the jobs.true wrote:Also there are many Irish people holding down well paid jobs in American multi-nationals here in Ireland.
American multi-nationals don’t set up shop in Ireland for our 'economic interests' or employment interests, but their own economic interests.0 -
What "weapons of mass destruction " did America arm anyone with in the Iran / Iraq war?
That would be all the chemical weapons given to Iraq at that time a chara, the photos of Rumsfeld and Hussein shaking hands with hugs and smiles are there for all to see.Gas was available in Iraq already was it not ?
Chemical weapons aren't made of Calor canistors that can be bought down the shop, they are highly complex agents, agents that were supplied en masse by the American government.And besides, the Iran Iraq war was a long time ago, the west has striven to learn from its past mistakes.
If you are so keen to forget the past then why are you bringing up the glorious "100 year old" record of the UK, US and Australia?Yeah, coming from "free West Waterford" you would know a lot about Aboriginies in Australia. What does being alledgedly "torn" from their homes 100 years ago to alledgedly "cowtow" as servants to white families have to do with anything?
Oh sorry a chara, I forgot you were as "experienced" on the subject of Australia as you were Ireland. My comments refer to the fact that Aboriginies were rounded up and kept in state controlled reservations and orphanages. In the aforementioned orphanages children of a lighter complexion were taken away to be adopted as servants in upper class households, children of a darker complexion were deemed unacceptable and were detained in these compounds.Many other things also happened in Chile; none of these events had a hundreth or a thousanth as big a bearing on world freedom and democracy as WW2 and the cold war for example, subjects you conveniently ignore because you know the US and UK were right.
You think I know "I'm right" on the killing of a democratically elected president? Not really son, the only person with trouble admitting things is your good self. I raise the issue of Chile as you are the one portraying America and England as our saving grace over the past "100 years", and as I said above, the people of Guatemala, Cuba, Jamaica, Grenada, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Colombia, Argentina, Peru, Panama, Egypt, India, Australia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Ireland, South Africa, Kenya, Afghanistan and Iraq would probably disagree with you.All they need is a NARA ( Native American Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture,
Is this your patronising slur against the American Indian Movement? The USA is one of the most complex political structures in existence but that does not change the fact that the US was founded on precisely the same principles you outlined. The Native Americans were butchered, exterminated, downtrodden and infected with smallpox but yet you seek to belittle their suffering, you should be ashamed of yourself.should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Yanks out, peace in ! America for the native americans.
Ah yes, you now seek to drag my political affiliation kicking and screaming into this discussion, maybe you might want to address and argue on the basis of the posts you have already made as opposed to previous threads. Anyway, regards your above comment, you still haven't addressed the fact that the US Vice President has major interests in a company making massive profits in the reconstruction of Iraq.0 -
FTA69 wrote:If you are so keen to forget the past then why are you bringing up the glorious "100 year old" record of the UK, US and Australia?
I am not keen to "forget" the past as you alledge : I made the point that the US and its allies eg the UK and Australia were involved in opposing some of the biggest threats to world democracy in the last century. eg the threat of Nazi facism, the threat in the Pacific region as demonstrated by the Japanese attack in WW2, and the threat posed by Russia in the cold war. Not to mention the threat to middle east stability as posed by the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq , which I think had the third or fourth largest army in the world at the time. Someone said we would be better off without the US, UK etc, but my point was what sort of state would the world be in.FTA69 wrote:Oh sorry a chara, I forgot you were as "experienced" on the subject of Australia as you were Ireland. My comments refer to the fact that Aboriginies were rounded up and kept in state controlled reservations and orphanages. In the aforementioned orphanages children of a lighter complexion were taken away to be adopted as servants in upper class households, children of a darker complexion were deemed unacceptable and were detained in these compounds..
This does not take away from Australian democracy today. You cannot blame the current generation of people for things done three generations ago. Besides not ALL Aboriginies were rounded up as you imply.FTA69 wrote:You think I know "I'm right" on the killing of a democratically elected president? Not really son, the only person with trouble admitting things is your good self. I raise the issue of Chile as you are the one portraying America and England as our saving grace over the past "100 years", and as I said above, the people of Guatemala, Cuba, Jamaica, Grenada, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Colombia, Argentina, Peru, Panama, Egypt, India, Australia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Ireland, South Africa, Kenya, Afghanistan and Iraq would probably disagree with you..
First of all I am not your son. In fact I was in Australia before you were even born. Chile is Chile and the people of all the countries you mention have one thing in common : a lot of people from each of these countries have wanted to emigrate to the US and UK etc. Now, if the US and UK were as bad as you make out would this be the case ?FTA69 wrote:Is this your patronising slur against the American Indian Movement? The USA is one of the most complex political structures in existence but that does not change the fact that the US was founded on precisely the same principles you outlined. The Native Americans were butchered, exterminated, downtrodden and infected with smallpox but yet you seek to belittle their suffering, you should be ashamed of yourself..
It was not a patrionising slur against the American Indian Movement, I just said "All they need is a NARA ( Native American Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture, should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Yanks out, peace in ! America for the native americans."FTA69 wrote:Ah yes, you now seek to drag my political affiliation kicking and screaming into this discussion, maybe you might want to address and argue on the basis of the posts you have already made as opposed to previous threads. .
Your political affiliation is quite obvious without anyone having to drag it kicking and screaming in to the discussion. America is not perfect, nobody ever said it was, but their system of free enterprise and democracy could be a lot worse, and it is a shining beacon of hope for millions of people in the world. . Maybe you would prefer Hitlers way of doing things, or Stalins or Saddam Husseins ? Oh , I forgot, they should'nt be there, they are oppressing the Native Americans for less time than the Brits have been here. All should go home.0 -
I am not keen to "forget" the past as you alledge : I made the point that the US and its allies eg the UK and Australia were involved in opposing some of the biggest threats to world democracy in the last century. eg the threat of Nazi facism, the threat in the Pacific region as demonstrated by the Japanese attack in WW2, and the threat posed by Russia in the cold war.
And at the same time they were oppressing countries the world over, little more than a decade after WW2 the brits were torturing people in Cyprus. As was pointed out above, the US and England did and do not become embroiled in wars across the world over out of some egalitarian love for democratic values, they do it because there is money to be made and capital at stake eg Suez, Iraqi oil etc.Not to mention the threat to middle east stability as posed by the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq , which I think had the third or fourth largest army in the world at the time. Someone said we would be better off without the US, UK etc, but my point was what sort of state would the world be in.
Maybe we could look at that other threat to stability in the Middle East, Israel? A country that recieves $6 billion a year in subsidies so it can maintain its oppression of the Palestinian people. As I said above, peace and democracy are the last things on the minds of the "good ole boys" when they decide to invade countries.This does not take away from Australian democracy today. You cannot blame the current generation of people for things done three generations ago. Besides not ALL Aboriginies were rounded up as you imply.
This issue is not all in the past as you alledge as the effects of it are still visible today in the fact that Aboriginies have the highest poverty levels and lowest life expectancy in Australia.Chile is Chile and the people of all the countries you mention have one thing in common : a lot of people from each of these countries have wanted to emigrate to the US and UK etc. Now, if the US and UK were as bad as you make out would this be the case ?
Because they are told the USA and Britain are "lands of the free", they drift in concealed in stifling tankers expecting to emerge into a land paved with gold where they will get a fantastic job etc etc. Chasing work trucks in LA so they can work 12 hours a day for less than a quarter of minimum wage doesn't cross their minds. Have a look at the Chinese men who were drowned in England recently while working for £1 a day picking cockles. Misconceptions and deperation are the reasons for the situation of mass exploitation that we find in developed countries, including the Eastern European women whose passports are confiscated while "working" in Irish lapdancing clubs.It was not a patrionising slur against the American Indian Movement, I just said "All they need is a NARA ( Native American Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture, should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Yanks out, peace in ! America for the native americans."
Again you are ignoring the after-effects of the genocide visited upon the Native Americans, 30% of them live below the poverty level, a masive 48% of Navajos live below the poverty line in crumbling and filthy reservations. Here's the US Census figures if you don't believe me.
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/indian/ailang2.txttheir system of free enterprise and democracy could be a lot worse, and it is a shining beacon of hope for millions of people in the world.
Was it a shining beacon of hope for the 100,000 Iraqis that are now dead? Is it a shining becaon of hope for the Hispanic women working 12 hours a day every day in awful conditions for hardly any money?Maybe you would prefer Hitlers way of doing things, or Stalins or Saddam Husseins ? Oh , I forgot, they should'nt be there, they are oppressing the Native Americans for less time than the Brits have been here. All should go home.
I never said they should all "go home", rather that they improve the conditions for the working-class people and natives who are downtrodden.0 -
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The Brits did not torture people in WW2 and they - or at least the vast vast majority - did not torture people in Cyprus. We were talking about WW2, the cold war, Gulf War one etc and you ignore these major conflicts and bringFTA69 wrote:And at the same time they were oppressing countries the world over, little more than a decade after WW2 the brits were torturing people in Cyprus.
up Cyprus. Typical.FTA69 wrote:As was pointed out above, the US and England did and do not become embroiled in wars across the world over out of some egalitarian love for democratic values, they do it because there is money to be made and capital at stake eg Suez, Iraqi oil etc..
What about Kosovo? What about the Falklands? The British did not and do not make money out of going there, they did so out of loyalty to the democratic wishes of the people of the Falklands, which was invaded by Argentina, which had an extremly questionable human rights record at the time ( the disappeared etc ). And as for Iraq, the cost so far has far exceeded any financial gain.FTA69 wrote:Maybe we could look at that other threat to stability in the Middle East, Israel? A country that recieves $6 billion a year in subsidies so it can maintain its oppression of the Palestinian people. As I said above, peace and democracy are the last things on the minds of the "good ole boys" when they decide to invade countries.
We pointed out Iraq, and you ignore it and want to talk about Israel ! Typical.
Israel is the only country in that region which has elections. Is is the homeland of the Jews, 6m of whom perished in WW2 partly because they had not a strong homeland. Things are not as simple as you think.FTA69 wrote:This issue is not all in the past as you alledge as the effects of it are still visible today in the fact that Aboriginies have the highest poverty levels and lowest life expectancy in Australia.
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The issue of "Aboriginies were rounded up and kept in state controlled reservations and orphanages" does not happen today ,as you alledge. Aboriginies also have very very high alcoholism rates, did you know that ? And very high unemployment rates, despite the best will of the govt there to get them to work and integrate.FTA69 wrote:Because they are told the USA and Britain are "lands of the free", they drift in concealed in stifling tankers expecting to emerge into a land paved with gold where they will get a fantastic job etc etc. Chasing work trucks in LA so they can work 12 hours a day for less than a quarter of minimum wage doesn't cross their minds. Have a look at the Chinese men who were drowned in England recently while working for £1 a day picking cockles. Misconceptions and deperation are the reasons for the situation of mass exploitation that we find in developed countries, including the Eastern European women whose passports are confiscated while "working" in Irish lapdancing clubs.
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Who tell them ? Its not the US or UK govt. The people employing those cockle pickers were Chinese, not British. You ignore the flood of people in to the US and UK over the years, which includes lots of Irish people who have made successful lives there.FTA69 wrote:Again you are ignoring the after-effects of the genocide visited upon the Native Americans, 30% of them live below the poverty level, a masive 48% of Navajos live below the poverty line in crumbling and filthy reservations. .
All the more reason FTA69 for you and your comrades to set up a "NARA ( Native American Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture, should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Yanks out, peace in ! America for the native americans."FTA69 wrote:Was it a shining beacon of hope for the 100,000 Iraqis that are now dead? Is it a shining becaon of hope for the Hispanic women working 12 hours a day every day in awful conditions for hardly any money?
The 100,000 is debatable and were not killed by the US / UK for the sake of it. The vast majority of Iraquis are killed by other Iraquis eg look at all the suicide bombs going off , it is inearly all Iraquis ( eg Iraqui police and applicants for same ) who are being killed by the terrorists. Look at the elections : most peole want peace and are glad Saddam is gone.FTA69 wrote:I never said they should all "go home", rather that they improve the conditions for the working-class people and natives who are downtrodden.
Are you talking about he " Brits" in N. Ireland now, or the Americans?
Both the Brits and the American have over the years vastly "improved the conditions for the working-class people and natives ". Is it not incosistent you call for one English speaking group of invaders to go home and not the other?0 -
The Brits did not torture people in WW2 and they - or at least the vast vast majority - did not torture people in Cyprus.
Yes they did, it was British Army SOP to employ torture in order to break EOKA guerillas, they did the same in this country and to the Mau Mau in Kenya and to Communists in Malaya.We were talking about WW2, the cold war, Gulf War one etc and you ignore these major conflicts and bring
up Cyprus. Typical.
And I'm saying that while the US and UK were involved in these conflicts they were up to their necks in imperialism and torture across the globe, an issue conveniantly ignored by you.What about Kosovo? What about the Falklands? The British did not and do not make money out of going there, they did so out of loyalty to the democratic wishes of the people of the Falklands, which was invaded by Argentina, which had an extremly questionable human rights record at the time ( the disappeared etc ).
The Falklands was exploited to prop up Maggie Thatcher's flagging political career, why the Brits felt the need to cling to an island half way across the world seems to be lost on you.And as for Iraq, the cost so far has far exceeded any financial gain.
Not for the capitalists who have made a killing (literally), Haliburton is raking in the money for who else only Dick Cheney.We pointed out Iraq, and you ignore it and want to talk about Israel ! Typical.
You raised instability in the Middle East and I replied that the cause of that instability is the oppression of the Palestinian people.Israel is the only country in that region which has elections. Is is the homeland of the Jews, 6m of whom perished in WW2 partly because they had not a strong homeland. Things are not as simple as you think.
So the Holocaust is now a justification for the interning of innocent people and the robbery of land from people who have been in the region for thousands of years before Russians and Yanks decided to invade in their hordes?The issue of "Aboriginies were rounded up and kept in state controlled reservations and orphanages" does not happen today
Talking to you is like smacking my head repeatedly off a brick wall. I know that that doesn't happen today but the after effects of years of genocide and social repression can be seen today in the poverty levels of the Aboriginal people.Aboriginies also have very very high alcoholism rates, did you know that ?
Again you make the shallowest of analyses, can you tell me why the Aboriginies, Inuits and Native Americans have high alcoholism rates?And very high unemployment rates, despite the best will of the govt there to get them to work and integrate.
Yeah sure, they're all just lazy bastards... :rolleyes:Who tell them ? Its not the US or UK govt. The people employing those cockle pickers were Chinese, not British.
Exactly, Chinese Triads working within a capitalist system and getting very rich off the suffering of others. Besides, most of these sweatshops, lap-dancing clubs etc are owned by English/Irish people.All the more reason FTA69 for you and your comrades to set up a "NARA ( Native American Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture, should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern the US". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Yanks out, peace in ! America for the native americans."
You really are a tiresome man, is your argument that weak that you are unable to actually address the reasons for Native American poverty?The 100,000 is debatable and were not killed by the US / UK for the sake of it. The vast majority of Iraquis are killed by other Iraquis
Yeah, the Iraqi people procured fighter jets and tanks and started dropping bombs on themselves did they?Both the Brits and the American have over the years vastly "improved the conditions for the working-class people and natives ".
Have they, I'm sure the Aboriginies who were herded off cliffs and the Native Americans who were infected with smallpox would be very grateful for the increase in living standards, even if they are 3 times more likely to live in poverty.0 -
FTA69 wrote:
This issue is not all in the past as you alledge as the effects of it are still visible today in the fact that Aboriginies have the highest poverty levels and lowest life expectancy in Australia.
...and it was still going on until the 80's, IIRC.0 -
true wrote:The 100,000 is debatable and were not killed by the US / UK for the sake of it. The vast majority of Iraquis are killed by other Iraquis.
Ummmm Nope!http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html
The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths, indicated that many of the excess deaths have occurred due to aerial attacks by coalition forces, with women and children being frequent victims, wrote the international team of public health researchers making the calculations.0 -
OK, when the US and its allies eg UK and Australia were involved in WW2, ( which was the largest conflict the world has ever known ) where were they involved "up to their necks in imperialism and torture across the globe," as you claim ? Out of millions of men, thousands of battles, umteen different theatres of war, just give me one example.FTA69 wrote:
And I'm saying that while the US and UK were involved in these conflicts they were up to their necks in imperialism and torture across the globe, an issue conveniantly ignored by you. .FTA69 wrote:The Falklands was exploited to prop up Maggie Thatcher's flagging political career, why the Brits felt the need to cling to an island half way across the world seems to be lost on you..
LOL. It was defended to respect the democratic wishes of the people who lived there. It was not halfway across the world, that would be closer to New Zealand. You said the Brits and Yanks always fought just for oil / their own selfish interest etc. Now you say they fought just to prop up one womans career. Will you make your mind up ? Ask the Falklanders today and they still do not want to be ruled by Argentina, the land of the "disappeared".FTA69 wrote:Not for the capitalists who have made a killing (literally), Haliburton is raking in the money for who else only Dick Cheney. .
Thats not the point. The point is, Americas involvment in Iraq in defeating Saddam ( the invader of Kuwait) and establishing elections in Iraq , has cost much more than any financial gain. America did not want to remove Saddam Hussein at great cost ( in more ways than one ) just to make a few bob for one or two people.FTA69 wrote:
You raised instability in the Middle East and I replied that the cause of that instability is the oppression of the Palestinian people..
I raised Iraq, not instability in the middle East, and you ignored the point I was making and diverted to Israel.FTA69 wrote:So the Holocaust is now a justification for the interning of innocent people and the robbery of land from people who have been in the region for thousands of years before Russians and Yanks decided to invade in their hordes?.
eh when did Russian use the holocaust as justification for invading the middle east ? The jews have been in the middle east for thousands of years, and their homeland is only four or five times that of where you come from ( "Free Waterford " ! ). It is surrounded by Muslim countries hundreds of times bigger. None of whom give any aid to the palestinian people unless they blow themselves up as suicide bombers : Saddam Hussein gave their families a reward for that that all right.FTA69 wrote:Talking to you is like smacking my head repeatedly off a brick wall...
Listening to you is like listening to an Phoblocht....a worse experience that beating ones head off a brick wall.
All the more reason FTA69 for you and your comrades to set up a "NARA ( Native Aboroginal Republican Army ) and those nasty imperialists who stole the land and gerrymandered , and who brought the English language and took away the native language, and who took away the native religion and culture, should go home, along with the "wealthy and powerful corporate sector who really govern ". The three birdwatchers from Columbia are probably there now as we speak doing some consultancy work. Whites out, peace in ! Australia for the native americans."FTA69 wrote:I know that that doesn't happen today but the after effects of years of genocide and social repression can be seen today in the poverty levels of the Aboriginal people..FTA69 wrote:Again you make the shallowest of analyses, can you tell me why the Aboriginies, Inuits and Native Americans have high alcoholism rates?
Yeah sure, they're all just lazy bastards... :rolleyes:
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oh please sir FTA69, can I answer that ? It was "the after effects of years of genocide and social repression can be seen today in the poverty levels "
The same as in Northern Ireland , oops I mean the occupied six counties , sir.
Brits out, Americans out, Australians out, peace in.FTA69 wrote:Exactly, Chinese Triads working within a capitalist system and getting very rich off the suffering of others. Besides, most of these sweatshops, lap-dancing clubs etc are owned by English/Irish people..
You cannot blame me or any other white European for encouraging the Chinese Triads. Nearly all the sweatshops that the chinese work in are located in China rather than the UK or Ireland, for the simple reason oit is cheaper to produce there, and there are no health and safety regulations, minimum wage etc.FTA69 wrote:You really are a tiresome man, is your argument that weak that you are unable to actually address the reasons for Native American poverty? .
LOL. I give you, tongue in cheek, the same answer you give us to address Irish poverty. Can you not be consistent ?FTA69 wrote:
Yeah, the Iraqi people procured fighter jets and tanks and started dropping bombs on themselves did they?
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Nobody said that. However, when these suicide bombs go off almost daily killing 20 or 30 people , who is the suicide bomber - it certainly is not an American - and who are the casulties. They are usually Iraqi policemen, applicants for the Iraqi police or civil service etc. Thats the reality now, lad.
If there was no terrorism there, the elections would have been even more of a success than they were and the Americans and their allies could go home, much to their relief.0 -
We should remember our economic interests
We should also remember that American TNCs aren`t patriotic. They`re acting in their own economic interests and at the moment they are far too comfortable over here, to pull out over something like the withdrawl of use of shannon airport.0 -
AngelofFire wrote:We should also remember that American TNCs aren`t patriotic. They`re acting in their own economic interests and at the moment they are far too comfortable over here, to pull out over something like the withdrawl of use of shannon airport.
New ones could just as easily go to Scotland or Wales, for example. There they would also have the English language and access to EC markets etc.0 -
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QuoteTrue : OK, when the US and its allies eg UK and Australia were involved in WW2, ( which was the largest conflict the world has ever known ) where were they involved "up to their necks in imperialism and torture across the globe," as you claim ? Out of millions of men, thousands of battles, umteen different theatres of war, just give me one example.Victor wrote:US:
Phillipines
Hawaii
Caribbean
UK:
The whole British Empire
OK, so between 1939 and 1945, while the security of the world was threatened by advancing Nazi, Italian and Japanese armies across the world, FTA69 and Victor are more concerned with the US and UK up to their necks in imperialism and torture across the globe !
I think you will find there was more torture committed in Japanese prisinor of war camps against UK, Dutch and Australian troops than was committed by US and UK troops. The empire was actually on the side of the UK. Look at the magnificent fight put up by the people of Malta, who were bombed night and day by the Axis forces. Look at the Indian soldiers who fought in the far east. Ask these people, or the people of Hong Kong or Singapore or Gibraltar ; they would feel insulted if you said the UK were up to their necks in torture in their lands. They helped The UK and the cause of world freedom , by helping to fight the Axis powers, during WW2.
Saying the US was up to their necks in imperialism and torture in Hawaii is like saying the present Irish government are up to their necks in imperialism and torture in the Aran islands. And as for the caribbean, yeah sure, FTA69 and his three bird watcher mates from Columbia are going to be busy for a while helping these poor tortured and oppressed people. I think one of them was the Sinn Fein rep out there. I can see it now : the CRA - Caribbean Republican Army. Brits out . Yanks out . Peace in !0
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